Mick Gordon unlikely to work on another Doom game after Eternal’s OST release

[Herr Dethnout]

19 hours ago, Quasar said:

Never assume malice if stupidity will suffice. However in this case it may not suffice. I think there may have been actual malice, that is to say, he was being setup for failure from the beginning because some people felt he had taken too much credit, had gotten too much fame or recognition, believed that his artistic process was facetious or to use a word I heard directly, "pretentious" and not a necessity that led to the success of the 2016 OST, or that he was becoming dangerous to the franchise in that it might become impossible to continue it without him, and that's a liability that AAA modern publishers don't tolerate.

Sad but true, I even has more sense when you see people on social media talking about how future DOOM will be no the same if Mick is not making the ost besides the TAG ost was great without him. He converted in some way in the "face" of new DOOM games, something that probably piss off some key people on iD. IDK i'm just making assumptions now heh.

 

 

19 hours ago, Biodegradable said:

Combine all that with Stratton trying to bribe Gordon with hush money after he dared challenge Stratton's smear attempt made against him on a public post over on r/Doom, it's no fucking wonder Gordon responded with a firm, "No" when a fan asked him if he'd ever work with id Software again. They treated him like dog shit and I have nothing but respect for him finally breaking his silence on the matter after clearly doing absolutely everything he could to resolve this nonsense in a professional manner. Given the circumstances those bastards put him through, it's an astonishing achievement that Gordon managed to provide the iconic soundtrack for both nuDoom titles we know and love at all. I absolutely commend him for his effort, sacrifice and undeniable talent.

That six figures deal is like giving the middle finger to the reputation and career of Mick. Fucking disgusting from Marty having the nuts in trying of hidden everything with money rather than accept that Him (and to some extend id too) fucked up badly.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Herr Dethnout

[Herr Dethnout]

9 minutes ago, Caffeine Freak said:

Doom Eternal is getting review-bombed on Steam(again.) Don't know if it's affected the rating yet, as far as I can tell it's maybe a couple dozen fresh reviews so far. As if that's going to accomplish anything.

 

I can understand people getting emotional about this (even though it really doesn't help to, especially before we've heard both sides) and making 13 different 'omg Marty, you scum you deserve to die in fire and never work on games again, reeeee', on Reddit or whatever, but stuff like this is just dumb.

The funniest part it that few people are giving bad reviews to DOOM 2016 because of this too. lol

[Mr. Freeze]

Will this impact your decision to purchase the next Doom? 

[Sergeant_Mark_IV]

8 hours ago, AtimZarr1 said:

The fact he wasn't paid for months (and even still for "rejected" work that was used anyways), had to crunch for days/weeks, had delayed / absent follow-ups for communications, and was manipulated along the way several times only to be blamed solely in the end anyways is really shitty and puts id Software in a bad light. Marty in particular comes off as an ass. The way they mistreated  and manipulated Mick so blatantly, as if they didn't want to work with him, comes off as bizarre.

It felt like I was reading some story about some 90's mangaka. It's difficulty to believe this kind of stuff can still happen today.
This is some kind of cruelty and incompetence I wouldn't expect even from Randy Pitchford.


 

 

40 minutes ago, Caffeine Freak said:

Doom Eternal is getting review-bombed on Steam(again.) Don't know if it's affected the rating yet, as far as I can tell it's maybe a couple dozen fresh reviews so far. As if that's going to accomplish anything.

 

I can understand people getting emotional about this (even though it really doesn't help to, especially before we've heard both sides) but stuff like this is just dumb.

This may work for Zenimax's heads to take immediate action on the situation.
Firing Marty would be a good start.

[Varis Alpha]

i guess the doom 2016 section here will get a different description now.

[indigotyrian]

56 minutes ago, Caffeine Freak said:

Doom Eternal is getting review-bombed on Steam(again.) Don't know if it's affected the rating yet, as far as I can tell it's maybe a couple dozen fresh reviews so far. As if that's going to accomplish anything.

 

I can understand people getting emotional about this (even though it really doesn't help to, especially before we've heard both sides) but stuff like this is just dumb.

 

Reviews are basically the only way individuals have to communicate with studios. It may sound dumb but it's literally the only outlet that's there.

 

As for "hearing both sides," Mick Gordon was the other side. We heard from Stratton before Gordon. This is it, all the cards are on the table. Either Stratton comes back with a counter argument (and he better have a damn good one) or he's Fucked.

 

38 minutes ago, Mr. Freeze said:

Will this impact your decision to purchase the next Doom? 

 

I straight-up don't think another Nu-Doom would really sell at all. Nu-Doom and Mick Gordon's music are inseparable. I promise you that even the most casual gamers that won't know or care about this drama, if they were to see a Nu-Doom sequel without Mick Gordon's unique soundtrack, would think far lesser of it. "Hey, where'd the kickass music go? This sucks."

[Caffeine Freak]

33 minutes ago, segfault said:

 

Reviews are basically the only way individuals have to communicate with studios. It may sound dumb but it's literally the only outlet that's there.

 

That's what social media is for. id Software has had an extremely active social media presence in recent years, so it's not like they don't receive feedback in other ways. Hell, it's partly how they gauged the fans reaction during the DLC 2 meltdown. Admittedly, they haven't been as active recently since they're past the Eternal phase and working on their next game, but still, it's not like they wouldn't feel the backlash from this without the review metric on Steam, especially since multiple outlets (Kotaku, PC Gamer, Rock Paper Shotgun, IGN among many others) are now reporting on it. 

 

45 minutes ago, segfault said:

As for "hearing both sides," Mick Gordon was the other side. We heard from Stratton before Gordon. This is it, all the cards are on the table. Either Stratton comes back with a counter argument (and he better have a damn good one) or he's Fucked.

 

Fair enough. If and when id/Marty respond---this is really too big for them to ignore at this point---I think it will speak volumes if they choose to skirt over or ignore certain topics entirely.

[indigotyrian]

2 minutes ago, Caffeine Freak said:

 

That's what social media is for. id Software has had an extremely active social media presence in recent years, so it's not like they don't receive feedback in other ways. Hell, it's partly how they gauged the fans reaction during the DLC 2 meltdown. Admittedly, they haven't been as active recently since they're past the Eternal phase and working on their next game, but still, it's not like they wouldn't feel the backlash from this without the review metric on Steam, especially since multiple outlets (Kotaku, PC Gamer, Rock Paper Shotgun, IGN among many others) are now reporting on it.

 

Are reviews not in and of themselves a form of social media? Better question: if news of impropriety on the behalf of a studio or an executive changes one's opinion about a video game produced by said studio, is it not entirely fair that the reviews of those games reflect those opinions? I never cared for Eternal to begin with but knowing the depths of bullshit id put Gordon through has definitely sworn me off of ever buying a future id game unless some heads roll. I'm not particularly motivated to add a little blurb at the end of my own negative review for Doom Eternal expressing disgust at Stratton's behavior and solidarity for Gordon but I might just do it if it meant I upset somebody who thinks I should only express myself within the confines of a neat little box.

 

And that's just the thing: it occurs to me that these perennial arguments against so-called "review bombs" all have a throughline of disgust at the idea of what is essentially people expressing critique in a way that may have consequences down the line against the target of their criticism. "You're allowed to be upset at id Software screwing Mick Gordon over, but only in these ways that I deem acceptable."

[OliveTree]

Not enough people are calling attention to this little gem (mind the comic sans, thats just what my browser uses, please dont ask why)

 

 

My understanding is that these resources were handed over at the time Mick signed the Official Soundtrack contract. That is, March 18th. It's not like Chad had been working with those raw materials for the alleged six months before the contract was signed. Regardless, "pooling their resources together" they did not. It seems like in the face of having the exact same material as Mick, they just asked Chad to refine the tracks he'd already assembled and left Mick to do his own thing in that time.

 

PS:

Regardless, those materials are their property now AFAIK. So then, what exactly is the cause of the CANYON delay W.R.T. mixing a better OST in-house? Especially when they definitely don't seem to plan on working with Mick ever again? Hard not to feel like re-releasing the OST would shine more light on their failure to pay Mick what he's contractually entitled to.

Edited November 10, 2022 by OliveTree

[Fuser Marucs]

49 minutes ago, OliveTree said:

Not enough people are calling attention to this little gem (mind the comic sans, thats just what my browser uses, please dont ask why)

 

 

My understanding is that these resources were handed over at the time Mick signed the Official Soundtrack contract. That is, March 18th. It's not like Chad had been working with those raw materials for the alleged six months before the contract was signed. Regardless, "pooling their resources together" they did not. It seems like in the face of having the exact same material as Mick, they just asked Chad to refine the tracks he'd already assembled and left Mick to do his own thing in that time.

 

PS:

Regardless, those materials are their property now AFAIK. So then, what exactly is the cause of the CANYON delay W.R.T. mixing a better OST in-house? Especially when they definitely don't seem to plan on working with Mick ever again? Hard not to feel like re-releasing the OST would shine more light on their failure to pay Mick what he's contractually entitled to.

I think you are misunderstanding- the OST contract is a different thing to the video game soundtrack. The OST contract was for turning the existing music that Mick had already submitted into a cohesive listening experience suitable as an album. So Chad absolutely did have the raw files - of course he did: they would have needed all that for the game way before March 18th!

[OliveTree]

42 minutes ago, Fuser Marucs said:

I think you are misunderstanding- the OST contract is a different thing to the video game soundtrack. The OST contract was for turning the existing music that Mick had already submitted into a cohesive listening experience suitable as an album. So Chad absolutely did have the raw files - of course he did: they would have needed all that for the game way before March 18th!

I tend to believe Marty when he says they initially only had the stems Mick sent for use in-game, not the original source material (raw recordings, production files, etc). Mick's citation for the phrase "contractually obliged" refers to this section of the statement: https://medium.com/@mickgordon/my-full-statement-regarding-doom-eternal-5f98266b27ce#c50c

 

Where he clearly states that sending over the raw source material was part of the OST contract's terms; never in the statement does he imply that these were sent over as part of the game contract, AFAIK.

[Urthar]

I really want to buy Starfield when it gets released, but I'm not touching a Bethesda product until Mick gets his fucking money.

[Somniac]

My investment in nuDoom is pretty minimal. I'm still gobsmacked after reading this.

 

The absolute state of Bethesda and id. Just wow. I don't really like Mick Gordon's music, but I can respect the craft and I feel terrible for him, and I respect his integrity. It takes balls to go public on something of this magnitude. He must feel so used, which as a musician (or any creative) is a galling feeling. I have no reason to doubt any of his words. 

 

Glad that I don't actually own either of the newer Doom games, and I've never given this shower of wankers a penny. Never will. You're not id Software. Id software was cool.

[OliveTree]

1 hour ago, Somniac said:

You're not id Software. Id software was cool.

isnt marty from back in like the quake ii era? And I mean. Honestly if one thing is consistent about id software its...drama involving the old guard

 

Some people would argue Quake II was like the first non-id software game but, in any case....

[Gez]

8 hours ago, Mr. Freeze said:

Will this impact your decision to purchase the next Doom? 

No.

 

I did not get 2016 in part because my hardware can't run it. Then the direction they've taken with Eternal and, even more, with both TAGs just made me a lot less interested anyway.

 

So basically I already wasn't interested in purchasing anything new from id unless I suddenly become rich and can get a new PC despite all the cryptobro GPU scalpers and the ongoing inflation crisis.

[Razza]

It really boggles my mind that people could even think that treating their employees like this is ok. Like, I get that all they think about is the money, but do they really not sit down and think about the consequences actions like this can have? Marty's destroying ID's reputation and made a passionate man's life hell for years, and for what? A bit of extra money?

 

I really hope that for Mick's sake, he's able to settle this whole debacle as amicably as possible and move on to work for people that actually RESPECT the sheer amount of love and effort he puts into his work

[whatup876]

1 hour ago, OliveTree said:

isnt marty from back in like the quake ii era? And I mean. Honestly if one thing is consistent about id software its...drama involving the old guard 

Tim Willits, if i believe, was at id since 1995 and he's another can of worms.

This story is also reminding me of when Bethesda got Human Head Studios to make Prey 2 and kept messing with development until the game was cancelled. (meanwhile, Microsoft did something similar to Platinum over Scalebound but Plat survived that one and were saved by Nier)

Mick taking a while to make this statement also reminds me of Johnny Depp taking a while to bring proof of how Amber Heard treated him: sometimes, you need to get the right amount of evidence and structure, even if some people already form certain ideas about you while you take your time.

 

Mick did say he did not want a hate campaign, but i think it's fair that people are worried and try to communicate with what they can.

Even if Reddit has a bad rep over people trying to fight for something or act like vigilantes, where even if they're not wrong, they can still be weird about (the phrase "we did it Reddit" has a dark origin)

What Quasar said about Mick's reputation and it affecting Doom/id reminds me of something: "star" developers seem rare nowadays.

Like yeah a lot of games are made by teams and not just one or two guys, but the idea of "teams" can also dehumanize developers in a way that makes it seem like they're just nameless employees. (part of why Martin Scorsese was worried about Marvel movies).

Something to do with a lot of modern games feeling bland because they are essentially developed by "publishers", not "developers" or something.

There's always still some indie devs like Toby Fox and Japanese game still have notorious names.

It's weird because you also have the idea of videogames being art and stuff like "the medium needs to grow up".

 

Either way, r/Doom is already doing "the community is also at fault" posts.

It's like a situation where, if you tell a problem to like 7 different people, each one voices their opinions and thoughts on the subject.

But you put 30 people in the room and everyone starts screaming on top of each other, booing, cheering etc all this cacophony.

[Mr. Freeze]

29 minutes ago, whatup876 said:

Either way, r/Doom is already doing "the community is also at fault" posts.

 

 

Why are you reading /r/doom under any circumstance 

[TakenStew22]

Eternal is mixed on Steam now. Bunch of reviews saying to boycott and wishing they pirated it, etc.

 

Did the other creators of the game even had anything to do with Mick though lol. Seems like people just shoving coal into the drama, Mick even said not to harass them or make it any worse but almost every recent review I saw has insults directed towards them. Like I hate what Marty did but they're literally doing what Mick told them not to do...

Edited November 10, 2022 by TakenStew22

[whatup876]

I tend to use the "new" section (and the old design) but also either post/share things i think are more interesting or at least focus on the least boring posts between the reposted memes and low effort content.

At the very least, the fact that Redditors don't know better is why i tend to share random things, even if just to create a culture clash.

Then again, most people still use Twitter and that site was always a corporate mess that was already evil before a guy that tortures monkeys bought the site.

Like if you're an artist, use a site that has actual galleries with tags and numbered pages, not an thing you scroll for hours full of food pics and meme reaction images.

[LadyMistDragon]

3 hours ago, OliveTree said:

isnt marty from back in like the quake ii era? And I mean. Honestly if one thing is consistent about id software its...drama involving the old guard

 

He joined  around the time Doom 3 development started.

Edited November 10, 2022 by LadyMistDragon

[indigotyrian]

21 minutes ago, TakenStew22 said:

Eternal is mixed on Steam now. Bunch of reviews saying to boycott and wishing they pirated it, etc.

 

Did the other creators of the game even had anything to do with Mick though lol. Seems like people just shoving coal into the drama, Mick even said not to harass them or make it any worse but almost every recent review I saw has insults directed towards them. Like I hate what Marty did but they're literally doing what Mick told them not to do...

 

I don't think expressing disgust at a studio for fucking a creator over is a "hate campaign." They're not sending death threats and shit on Steam, they're just saying the game sucks, that id sucks, and that they want nothing to do with the company now.

[TakenStew22]

1 minute ago, segfault said:

 

I don't think expressing disgust at a studio for fucking a creator over is a "hate campaign." They're not sending death threats and shit on Steam, they're just saying the game sucks, that id sucks, and that they want nothing to do with the company now.

The game doesn't suck though... atleast almost everyone agrees it doesn't. And thankfully I didn't see anyone mentioning it does either. Just Marty or id.

 

I'm just not a fan of review bombing. If they're gonna mob, they should probably do it on social media more than anything.

[indigotyrian]

30 minutes ago, TakenStew22 said:

The game doesn't suck though... atleast almost everyone agrees it doesn't. And thankfully I didn't see anyone mentioning it does either. Just Marty or id.

 

I'm just not a fan of review bombing. If they're gonna mob, they should probably do it on social media more than anything.

 

I mean, I certainly thought Eternal was a shitty game before all of this. As for whether or not this topic belongs on reviews:

 

11 hours ago, segfault said:

 

Are reviews not in and of themselves a form of social media? Better question: if news of impropriety on the behalf of a studio or an executive changes one's opinion about a video game produced by said studio, is it not entirely fair that the reviews of those games reflect those opinions? I never cared for Eternal to begin with but knowing the depths of bullshit id put Gordon through has definitely sworn me off of ever buying a future id game unless some heads roll. I'm not particularly motivated to add a little blurb at the end of my own negative review for Doom Eternal expressing disgust at Stratton's behavior and solidarity for Gordon but I might just do it if it meant I upset somebody who thinks I should only express myself within the confines of a neat little box.

 

And that's just the thing: it occurs to me that these perennial arguments against so-called "review bombs" all have a throughline of disgust at the idea of what is essentially people expressing critique in a way that may have consequences down the line against the target of their criticism. "You're allowed to be upset at id Software screwing Mick Gordon over, but only in these ways that I deem acceptable."

 

As long as it doesn't stray into the realm of targeted violent attacks and speech I don't really see the problem. I'm generally pretty wary of anybody saying that expressing yourself in a certain way isn't acceptable, and this is no exception.

Edited November 10, 2022 by segfault

[Koko Ricky]

This situation feels like what happens when a major studio wants an ambitious project out by a certain date and inevitably mismanages certain aspects of development. It also sounds like some folks at id were unaware of how much work actually goes into crafting a soundtrack, combined with possible resentment toward how much Mick Gordon's style defines the newer Dooms. 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Koko Ricky

[Stoltzmann]

12 hours ago, Mr. Freeze said:

Will this impact your decision to purchase the next Doom? 

 

Of course. Most likely the music is not going to be as good as it used to be to say the least, and people will notice this. Who is going to replace Mick? Andrew Hulshult and his melody-free-too-heavy-riffs-only music again? David Levy seems fine but still not the level of kickassery as Gordon.

[LadyMistDragon]

15 hours ago, Biodegradable said:

 

That's a pretty disheartening thought right there, Q, but knowing how ugly and petty big industries can be, I suppose one can't completely scoff at the idea. After all, Bungie did a lot of similar shit to Marty O'Donnell and Michael Salvatori regarding their work for Halo and Destiny.

Wait a minute, doesn't Salvatori still work for Bungie?

 

[TheFocus]

13 hours ago, Mr. Freeze said:

Will this impact your decision to purchase the next Doom? 

if Marty leaves, and Mick gets what he deserves, no.

[tatsu91]

14 hours ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

It felt like I was reading some story about some 90's mangaka. It's difficulty to believe this kind of stuff can still happen today.
This is some kind of cruelty and incompetence I wouldn't expect even from Randy Pitchford.
 

 

 

Randy can be an asshole and is not the greatest at times but even when he had a feud and mistreated someone He left the situation where it was even though it made him look bad. He even understands he is in a position of power and should not abuse it in such a gross negligent way because it is career ending and it should End Strattons career in the Video games. He not only made micks life a living hell. He broke several laws ( Contractual ones and even advertising ones) but it shows he is incapable of running a smooth ship.

[scalliano]

1 hour ago, TakenStew22 said:

The game doesn't suck though... atleast almost everyone agrees it doesn't. And thankfully I didn't see anyone mentioning it does either. Just Marty or id.

 

I'm just not a fan of review bombing. If they're gonna mob, they should probably do it on social media more than anything.

Not everyone is on social media (hi :D) and review-brigading has proven itself in the past to be an effective means of at least informing potential buyers that something is wrong and doing so in a short timeframe. It immediately conveys that fans are pissed off about something being amiss either in the game or adjacent to the game.

 

Also, to a previous point - the term "hate-campaign" gets thrown around way too freely these days. Calling a corporation or even an individual out on their bullshit is not a hate campaign. When you get into the arena of death threats or doxxing people, then it's a problem.

 

As far as boycotts go, we'll see. A lot can happen in however many years it may be until id's next title. Emotions are understandably running high right now with the artist who is arguably the life and soul of nuskool Doom having been allegedly fucked over in such an egregious manner, but I for one am interested in seeing how id responds and going from there.

 

As of now, I'm very much on team Gordon - he has clearly been working on this response for a while and made sure to bring receipts.