Why was Samuel Hayden able to enter hell in Doom 2016? (topic contains spoilers)

[igg]

... if he is a Maykr? During Nekravol – Part 2 he says: "Built by Sentinel slaves, for a Maykr can never set foot in Hell, nor demon in Urdak". I also think think Samuel Hayden and Samur are the same person, but I'm just wondering.

[NoXion]

I think it's because Samuel was speaking of a covenant made between Hell and Urdak, rather than some kind of physical limitation. Demons are physically capable of entering Urdak after all.

[TheAncientOrder]

58 minutes ago, NoXion said:

 Demons are physically capable of entering Urdak after all.

Wasn't that because The Khan Maykr reasurected the Icon in Urdak?

[Ramiel]

1 hour ago, NoXion said:

I think it's because Samuel was speaking of a covenant made between Hell and Urdak, rather than some kind of physical limitation. Demons are physically capable of entering Urdak after all.

That’s only after the Holy Seal is broken when Doomguy interrupts the procession and awakens the Icon inside of Urdak. The Khan Maykr says as much right before she dies.

[AtimZarr1]

I think when the Seraphim was banished from Urdak, he was reborn as a human: Samuel Hayden. He was no longer a Maykr.

[D88M3R]

While we are on it, what happened to Samuel between D16 and Eternal? I am still curious about that, why was his body destroyed? How did the Doomguy escaped the coffin at the end of D16? Why the developers ignored the cliffhanger?

Edited April 22, 2020 by D88M3R

[Ramiel]

41 minutes ago, D88M3R said:

While we are on it, what happened to Samuel between D16 and Eternal? I am still curious about that, why was his body destroyed? How did the Doomguy escaped the coffin at the end of D16? Why the developers ignored the cliffhanger?

I can only assume that it will be covered in the DLC, since there’s literally no reason to have such a big time skip.

[AtimZarr1]

2 hours ago, D88M3R said:

what happened to Samuel between D16 and Eternal?

 

He returned to a demon-invaded Earth in 2150 and helped to lead the ARC. The demonic Crucible he took from the Slayer was used to power the ARC's weapons. There's that concept art showing Hayden wielding the Crucible alongside ARC marines, so he was likely on the frontlines.

 

2 hours ago, D88M3R said:

why was his body destroyed?

 

When the Slayer arrives at the ARC Complex, the PA system is announcing that "Samuel Hayden has fallen; the ARC is no more", as if it's recent news. Likely, Hayden was fighting off demons and got sliced in half. Maybe it was the Marauder who teleports in later to finish the job.

 

2 hours ago, D88M3R said:

How did the Doomguy escaped the coffin at the end of D16?

 

He wasn't placed into a coffin at the end of 2016. All we know is that the Tether system installed in his suit teleported him to unknown coordinates. In the Fortress of Doom's easter egg room, you can find a damaged/disassembled Praetor Suit with dried up blood on the floor, possibly showing the Slayer was trying to rid the Tether after 2016.

 

Some people speculate he was sent to Hell, but I think that's unlikely. The UAC needed those explosive Argent Accumulators to reach Hell, and there was no similar explosion at the end of 2016.

 

2 hours ago, D88M3R said:

Why the developers ignored the cliffhanger?

 

DLC bait or they prefer players speculate.

 

[Murdoch]

The use of the same voice actor for Hayden and the Maykr who gave the Slayer his upgrade, not to mention Hayden's prolific background knowledge that seems to reach far beyond what he logically should know is suspicious. But then, if he was the Makyr from day one, he had to have known that screwing with the Argent would rain Hell on Mars and Earth. So why would he do that, only to become a key player in the fight again the invasion?

[Chezza]

I do find this all confusing. Especially with VEGA saying "Am I father?" (something along those lines) which is a very important icon in Urdak's history.

 

It seems like some sort of multi-dimensional time warping might be happening. Hayden and VEGA may have been or will be something significant to Urdak.

[Zemini]

20 hours ago, igg said:

... if he is a Maykr? During Nekravol – Part 2 he says: "Built by Sentinel slaves, for a Maykr can never set foot in Hell, nor demon in Urdak". I also think think Samuel Hayden and Samur are the same person, but I'm just wondering.

 

He had some help from a demon named Plothole and a maykr angel named Retcon obviously.  Or better yet he isn't a Maykr anymore and just a cyborg hybrid.

 

Seriously, it does seem that some of the stuff from Doom 2016 was retconned or simply forgotten.  I doubt Hugo was thinking that Samuel was a Mayrk all along.  I mean what the hell are Corrax Tablets right?

Lets just hope it gets cleaned up a bit in the DLC or else the story is going to get backed into a corner.

[Murdoch]

Thinking about it some more, I think we are going to see a bit of retconning about Samuel. No matter how much I theorise, I can't quite make Samuel is Samur completely fit all the events and lore, but there is undoubtedly a connection there.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Murdoch

[Gez]

It's all very Shyamalanesque how it's revealed at the end that VEGA is The Father and Samuel is The Seraphim, but it makes little sense.

 

I mean, iIt's hard to guess what his motives are. Chronologically, it looks a bit like this, AFAIK:

1. The Maykr contact the Sentinels
2. Discovery of Argent energy, Khanie hatches a scheme
3. Samur kidnaps the Father, endows a mortal champion with the ability to single-handedly defeat Hell, and disappears
4. Without the Father to permit the Maykr's natural cycle of death and rebirth (aka transfiguration), Argent energy is the only choice remaining
5. Countless worlds are consumed by the demons
6. Samuel Hayden is born on Earth. He may or may not already be Samur Maykr at this point. He becomes a brilliant scientist and engineer. Creates VEGA, apparently using The Father somehow, though VEGA is not aware of this previous identity at this point.
7. Samuel Hayden explores Hell, returns with newfound knowledge (and possibly possessed by Samur the Seraphim if he wasn't already him to begin with), generalized cancer, and a newfound obsession for Argent energy.
8. He builds himself a robot suit, starts up his plan to power Earth with the energy obtained by torturing the damned until they literally lose their soul. What a nice guy. Insists it's worth it.
9. He finds the Seraphim's no-longer-mortal champion and brings him as insurance against Olivia Pierce's sudden but inevitable betrayal.
10. All Hell breaks loose, the Slayer is awakened, Doom 2016 happens and Hayden's plans for demonic-torture as a clean renewable energy fall flat.
11. Hayden's idea of continuing his work appears to be to create an army to lose the fight against Hell. Doesn't seem to be able to recreate the Divinity Machine to make a new Champion.
12. Meanwhile the Slayer had some interesting adventures on his own, loses all his weapons except the combat shotgun but finds himself a swank new space station, with which he arrives on Earth. Doom Eternal happens.
13. VEGA's back on Urdak and now remembers he's The Father, Khanie's killed, and Urdak is apparently doomed (unless The Father can do something about it, I guess). Samur/Samuel is now the Fortress of Doom's shipboard AI.

So he rebels against the Khan Maykr because of Argent energy and then decides to go down the same path? He removes the Father from Urdak but then puts him back in? He didn't even tell the Slayer to backup VEGA, though I guess maybe he learned enough of reverse psychology to know VEGA's best chance of survival was if he didn't ask the Slayer to back him up. I mean, when he asked Doomguy to carefully remove the hinges, that's when Doomguy decided to just break the damn thing, so that checks out. Still, it's really hard to guess what his plan was all along.

 

My best guess is that he wanted to use Doomguy to overthrow the Khan Maykr, and knew the best way to goad him into going to Urdak to fight her was to make it personal by having Earth threatened by Hell. As for Urdak's doom, he didn't plan on the Khan somehow physically bringing the Icon of Sin in there.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Gez

[Deimos]

Or maybe Vega is transformed when linked to Urdak and begins to have its "personality" changed?

[Murdoch]

9 hours ago, Gez said:

My best guess is that he wanted to use Doomguy to overthrow the Khan Maykr, and knew the best way to goad him into going to Urdak to fight her was to make it personal by having Earth threatened by Hell. As for Urdak's doom, he didn't plan on the Khan somehow physically bringing the Icon of Sin in there.

 

That was the closest I came to making everything fit as well (in fact I was writing exactly that stream of conscience in my last post above) but it still does not quite check (hence my edit). Like getting pissed with Doomguy broke that equipment early in Doom 2016 is very much Samuel the arrogant unfeeling bureaucrat not Samur. He could have also just somehow cleared a path to the portal that leads to the big Argent machine and onto Urdak, woke up Doomguy and said "Demons that way oh and kill the other guys too" if he was always intended to be Samur. Maybe Olivia's and the Khan's own actions derailed his plans somewhat and he had to improvise. Perhaps he thought he needed the Argent stuff on Mars working to eventually open the Portal that he needed? His attitude may have been potentially sacrifice billions to save trillions because he believed the Makyrs would just keep destroying worlds and dimensions. Whatever conscience he may have grown, he is still ultimately of Maykr origin and that entails a certain degree of arrogance and lack of empathy especially for "lesser" races. He obviously does care to some degree, or he would not have been risking himself on the front lines. There would have been no need for him to do so.

 

This would also explain his robot body's similarity to Maykr tech. Vega says it is similar to the ship, which may not necessarily mean identical. It is perhaps the best approximation of Maykr tech he could create with Earth/Martian materials. That would also explain why he could go into Hell - because his body was not truly a Maykr anymore.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Murdoch

[D88M3R]

On 4/21/2020 at 11:14 PM, Ramiel said:

I can only assume that it will be covered in the DLC, since there’s literally no reason to have such a big time skip.

Yeah, it was really really odd, i mean they make such an obvious sequel bait and then ignore it, it was weird. All of the sudden Doomguy is free, he has a space fortress, hell invaded Earth, Samuel was destroyed, wtf

On 4/22/2020 at 1:21 AM, AtimZarr1 said:

 

He returned to a demon-invaded Earth in 2150 and helped to lead the ARC. The demonic Crucible he took from the Slayer was used to power the ARC's weapons. There's that concept art showing Hayden wielding the Crucible alongside ARC marines, so he was likely on the frontlines.

 

 

When the Slayer arrives at the ARC Complex, the PA system is announcing that "Samuel Hayden has fallen; the ARC is no more", as if it's recent news. Likely, Hayden was fighting off demons and got sliced in half. Maybe it was the Marauder who teleports in later to finish the job.

 

 

He wasn't placed into a coffin at the end of 2016. All we know is that the Tether system installed in his suit teleported him to unknown coordinates. In the Fortress of Doom's easter egg room, you can find a damaged/disassembled Praetor Suit with dried up blood on the floor, possibly showing the Slayer was trying to rid the Tether after 2016.

 

Some people speculate he was sent to Hell, but I think that's unlikely. The UAC needed those explosive Argent Accumulators to reach Hell, and there was no similar explosion at the end of 2016.

 

 

DLC bait or they prefer players speculate.

 

I guess you learned all of that by reading the Codex, but it should have been explained in game, specially if they were going to put cutscenes.
I hope it gets explained but i doubt it.

[Murdoch]

Yeah you really should be reading the codex. It's where most of lore is. If they put that detail into the cutscenes, they would have people bitching that the cutscenes are too long. It's a good balance between giving the detail for those who want it without forcing it on those that do not I think.

[NoXion]

On 4/21/2020 at 9:40 PM, Ramiel said:

That’s only after the Holy Seal is broken when Doomguy interrupts the procession and awakens the Icon inside of Urdak. The Khan Maykr says as much right before she dies.

I watched the scene again to refresh my memory. I still think that the Holy Seal could be referring to a covenant (or a part of such) between Hell and Urdak. After all, even if there's some kind of magical enforcement of its terms, that doesn't preclude Samur taking advantage of loopholes by hitching a ride in Samuel's body. Also, any such covenant could only have come about with the Maykrs and the demons cooperating in the pursuit of Argent energy.

I think the reason that the Khan Maykr says that breaking the Holy Seal "threatens all of creation" is because it means that Hell is no longer bound by it. When the Seal was upheld, the Legions of the Damned could ravage worlds, but in a way that the Maykrs could influence by acting the Good Cop to the demons' Bad Cop. With the Seal broken, demons invading Urdak and her imminent death, it really is the end of the world as far as the Khan Maykr is concerned.

[Murdoch]

Robot Samuel/Samur is physically neither human nor maykr. So there is really no reason he could not go to hell.