Using secrets effectively

[RonnieJamesDiner]

At the risk of over-thinking something that should perhaps be simple, I wanted to discuss Secrets.

 

I often find myself struggling to incorporate them into my map – not so much from a spatial point of view (as in, how or where to include them in the geometry, which generally comes naturally to me), but more specifically, what to use a secret for.

 

Mostly, I feel like my secrets are “boring”. I’ve gotten into this habit of picking between a very small pool of resources when attempting to fill a secret, which include:

• Soulsphere (easily upgraded to Megasphere for lower skill settings)
• Green armor (easily upgraded to Blue armor)
• Sometimes, a Berserk pack
• The odd time, a better weapon
• Very seldom, an ammo cache

 

In maps that utilize very strict, and conservative resources, I usually enjoy finding several small secrets throughout these levels that simply grant me valuable shotgun shells and stimpacks. However, the majority of my own maps tend to lean towards abundance in terms of resources, because it lends to the type of experience I’m hoping to create. As a result, I’m back to the case of... “well, the player doesn’t really need supplies here, better just throw in a Soulsphere or armor”.

 

A great example of an interesting use of secrets that I recall from the IWADS was in creating alternate routes for the player, and even, introducing keycards only accessible as a secret. In attempting to apply this idea to my own maps, I always feel concerned that I’m “blocking off” part of the experience from the majority of players who may never find the secret, and are likely to only ever play the map once.

 

And of course, there is the issue of disrupting “balance” in a map, or set, which weighs on me. There have been times where I’ve literally abandoned a neat idea for a secret, simply because I couldn’t think of anything worth using the secret for. The player didn’t really need health, armor, or ammo; a better weapon would’ve ruined the fights ahead; and an alternate route felt unreasonable. So, rather than utilizing it some other creative way, I'd simply remove the secret entirely and move on. Which, in retrospect, feels like a damn shame.

 

 

So, I'm curious...

• Do you have any general thoughts/opinions on the use of secrets?
• Are there any memorable examples from the IWADS, or PWADS, that stick out to you?
• Are there any interesting/creative uses for secrets that you wish you saw more often?

Edited June 6, 2020 by RonnieJamesDiner
Title change, it felt misleading/weird

[Bridgeburner56]

Some rambly thoughts:

• Secrets are tricky to implement correctly. They need to feel significant enough to make it worth player's time to find them but not massively change the difficulty of the map. A secret bfg in a map with no bfg but lots of plasma is a massive difficulty lowering item. If there's only enough cells in the map for a couple of shots then it's less of major change. You can probably only make one fight easier. Same with something like a megasphere. If it's the only one in the map then that's a huge power boost. If there's 4-5 more then it's more of an additional top up
• Secrets should generally never be mandatory to be able to complete the map
• Early weapons make good secrets. That way they don't change the overall difficulty of the map but might make a couple of early fights a bit less sweaty.
• Don't pepper ammo through the level for a weapon that is only available in a secret. It'll confuse the player. You can use ammo in the vicinity of the secret to signal it but if it's a purely secret weapon then generally keep any ammo for it in said secret.
• Secrets that make fights easier like hidden passageways to get behind monsters are interesting and fun. And they don't impact anything other than the fight that they are in
• Backpacks can be good secrets. They don't give the player a massive amount of ammo and you can control the impact they have on the map by how much ammo you cluster in fights.
• Soulspheres/berserks do make good secrets. They still feel good to find but there's a limit to how much easier they will make the rest of the map (I usually get careless when I find a secret soulsphere and lose the extra health quicker than I would normally)
• Want to include a powerful secret like a megasphere? Put it in a secret fight. Make the player earn it
• Extra ammo for weapons that you want to control the usage of, especially early in the map. 10 extra rockets when you had 5 to start with but there's 50 later on for a bigger fight? Good power boost early on that becomes negligible further through the map

That's all I have for now.

[Mitchfork]

Yeah, this is definitely a problem I've been thinking about as I make levels.  I think it's sort of innate to the game - there just aren't that many good rewards in the Doom toolkit. 

 

Early weapons are one of the best ways to reward secrets (Chaingun in E1M2, Rocket Launcher in MAP01/MAP03 come to mind) but since the vast majority of players will play without pistol starts it only works once... and since the weapon progression tends to be pretty fast in most mapsets (like, in Plutonia you get all the weapons except plasma and BFG in the very first map), you have a limited amount of time to use this.

 

I think the best way to do secrets is to make finding the secrets interesting in some way or make the secret areas themselves interesting.  Like, in Underhalls, you can see the secret area through a window beside the red key... you just get a Mega Armor for finding it, but it feels nice because you can see the area clearly, think "huh, how do I get that," and then figure out where to press on the wall.  Or in E1M5, one of the secret areas has a pentagram teleporter (the only teleporter in the whole episode) so the real reward is that you get to see something cool and unexpected for the setting.

[Uni]

Romero used secrets in a pretty interesting way throughout Episode 1 of Doom, usually involved the player being able to visit the outside fenced yards for extra goodies and a nice view of the perimeter, which I always thought was a great reward alone so I would say granting the player with a cool vista from an angle he won't reach normally is a good way to approach a secret placement. Also maybe allowing the player to "soften" an otherwise tough encounter/trap/set piece via a secret could be beneficial and actually rewarding, like giving them an access to a monster trap from behind, an example would be Community Chest 3 MAP02: Ion Storm which include such an example.

 

Maybe just an expensive and big secret area with additional things to see and explore would be cool too, secrets that involves a past skirmish with dead bodies lying on the ground, a little bit of environmental storytelling or an entire part of the map dedicated only to players who are secret hunters with monsters and items, or an entire jumping puzzle secret like Skillsaw did in BTSX Episode 1 MAP31: Optical Hopscotch.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Uni

[Mystic 256]

my favorite secret is the one in sunlust map 28's that requires optional key to get in to and it has a big mega battle which if you survive it rewards you with a secret exit that not a death exit like the normal exit.

so your playing continuous your weapons wont get reset at the start of map29 if your go through that secret exit.

 

I like secrets like that.

[RonnieJamesDiner]

Thanks everyone, already some great ideas here.

 

@Bridgeburner56 I really appreciate the rambly thoughts, there's some great advice there. I always forget about the idea of using a secret to allow the player to approach a combat scenario from a greater vantage point, that's an awesome one.

 

@Mitchfork Yeah, rewarding the player with weapons can be a tricky one. Like you said, you can run out of room to do it rather quickly, if your mapset leans towards heavier combat quickly (and you're handing the player everything, anyways). Pistol starting creates an interesting situation there -- for players who prefer pistol starts on every map, then I suppose secret weapons would always be valuable/useful for the entire WAD. Definitely something to consider.

 

 

5 hours ago, Uni said:

Romero used secrets in a pretty interesting way throughout Episode 1 of Doom, usually involved the player being able to visit the outside fenced yards for extra goodies and a nice view of the perimeter, which I always thought was a great reward alone so I would say granting the player with a cool vista from an angle he won't reach normally is a good way to approach a secret placement.

 

This is a brilliant idea that I'd never really picked up on, consciously. Now that you mention it though, it seems really obvious. I love this idea! Thanks!

 

 

3 hours ago, Mystic 256 said:

my favorite secret is the one in sunlust map 28's that requires optional key to get in to and it has a big mega battle which if you survive it rewards you with a secret exit that not a death exit like the normal exit.

 

Actually I've yet to play Sunlust, but that sounds awesome. Optional fights do seem like tempting secrets to make, especially if they're a step up in difficulty compared to the rest of the map. I noticed tourniquet seems to enjoy making these sort of optional, secret fights -- at least, Miasma and Mutabor had them, and they were rather fun to discover and tackle.

 

Secret exits are another thing to look at entirely, and in the realm of UDMF/GZDoom, I start to wonder if perhaps they're a little underused. I loved what DMPhobos and Z0k did with having multiple exits leading to different maps in Darkmoon, altering the path you took through the set itself, map-by-map. Some of the exits definitely felt like "secret routes", and I found myself feeling like I'd discovered secret maps in the set (even if that wasn't actually the case).  

Edited June 6, 2020 by RonnieJamesDiner

[Not Jabba]

10 hours ago, RonnieJamesDiner said:

Mostly, I feel like my secrets are “boring”. I’ve gotten into this habit of picking between a very small pool of resources when attempting to fill a secret, which include:

From the perspective of making secrets "interesting," it doesn't so much matter what you decide to put in them. Unless your map is extremely combat-focused, the greatest reward is usually the satisfaction of finding the secret. The important thing is to make them interesting to find -- make them feel like exploration. Broadcast secret items well enough to make the player want to look for the way to reach them, create interesting ways of accessing them that require clever thinking, and make the secret areas themselves interesting -- don't just put everything in a little closet. In the Quake mapping community, it's very common to have huge multi-part secrets be an intended part of the overall experience of playing the map -- make it clear what the player is looking for, and maybe even how many steps they have to go through to find it (e.g., collecting the four runes in Quake or a door that requires all six keys in Doom), and it can become a major focus of the map's gameplay. Needless to say, if the player's enjoyment of the map's "intended" experience requires secret-hunting, then the secrets should be especially well broadcast and, in most cases, not too cryptic to find in a first playthrough if the player is making a really serious effort and has a good mastery on the skills required to beat the map. If you want the "idea" of cryptic secrets to be more important than the experience of finding any one particular secret -- i.e., looking for secrets is part of the tone/atmosphere of the map, but the player doesn't have to find most or all of them to get the best gameplay experience -- then making them hard to find is a good thing (Legacy of Heroes would be a good example of this).

In any map, you can probably get away with at least one Soulsphere, one Berserk, one Backpack (unless you're super concerned about continuous balance a la BTSX), one blue armor, and one general supply cache (ammo plus health/armor bonuses or medikits). So that's already four or five secrets right there. Less frequently, you can do green armor, bonus weapons, or maybe even invis spheres (it's a bit of a troll, but again, finding the secret itself is often the main reward). Extra Radsuits are often useful secrets if the map has a lot of poison, and Lite Amps can sometimes provide similar rewards in dark maps. The rarest and most interesting secrets will often have the BFGs, Megaspheres, and Invulns. I'm a little spoiled with Heretic's larger item selection -- it's just more options to choose from -- but any time you're targeting a ZDoom port for a Doom project, you can always consider adding custom items, which are great for putting in secrets.

 

7 hours ago, Bridgeburner56 said:

• Don't pepper ammo through the level for a weapon that is only available in a secret. It'll confuse the player. You can use ammo in the vicinity of the secret to signal it but if it's a purely secret weapon then generally keep any ammo for it in said secret.

I disagree with this one. Placing ammo for a weapon you don't have is often a very clear signal that there was already a secret with that weapon in it, and you missed it. I would always read it as that type of signal if I trusted the mapper as a good level designer.

[Nine Inch Heels]

I'll just point to some more eccentric or elaborate uses of secrets I've seen, and leave the "this should do that" kinds of talks to others...

Secrets for the sake of secrets: You might think this one's stupid (and in many cases it is), but it can be done well. TOD made some maps over the years which have secrets that provide no advantage whatsoever, and merely exist as an additional hurdle for UVmaxers, like for example platforming sections that don't provide you with anything other than getting the secret counter to 100%. Anybody who isn't into platforming can just finish the map without going out of their way, but, if done well, these kinds of secrets make for a nice workout or a change of pace at the very least. Not suitable for every map, but certainly not bad either.

 

Risk/Reward secrets: For example have a secret that becomes inaccessible when a monster is killed, and make it such that the respective monster is a pain in the ass to leave alive during a fight of some sort, and you have yourself a secret that gives players a painful choice: Make for example an early fight easier at the expense of not being able to max the map, or make the respective fight more difficult in favour of a power boost later in the map.

 

Secrets that alter the fights in a map: Let's say you have a powerful weapon in a secret that can be reached relatively early in the map, would be a real shame if people rushed that secret and then most of the map suddenly becomes trivial to play, wouldn't it? Turns out you can solve this potential problem by simply placing a few triggers in that secret which make more monsters spawn in the regular fights to compensate for the player's increased firepower. You could even go as far as altering the geometry of some fights, or completely "restage" fights by way of spawning in an entirely different set of monsters than you otherwise would. The best part about it: this works regardless of map-format, though vanilla may be somewhat limited with regards to linedef actions.

 

Easter eggs: Nothing wrong with rewarding the observant player with some doomcute, a "throwback fight" along the lines of valiant map 26, or just anything that is "silly". If that silly secret makes just one person smile it's a winner as far as I'm concerned. Live a little. Living is good for you. :P

 

Pick your poison: Give players a choice: Either do this hard fight, or do this tricky platforming, just as an example. Or, get this ammo, that soulsphere, or this armour instead of all the things at once. Choice is good, especially if it is a painful choice, says my inner sadist. ;-)

 

Puzzles: Secrets don't always need to be fights with pickups or whatever you can "gate" behind a secret, sometimes a puzzle can be much more interesting than your "conventional" secret, especially when there's a benefit on the line.

 

New areas: What's the evolution of finding a hidden room? Finding an entire hidden area instead.

Edited June 6, 2020 by Nine Inch Heels

[Mordeth]

@Bridgeburner56 already mentioned the most important don'ts when it comes to secrets: they should not be mandatory to finish the level nor needed to be able to kill all the monsters present; while at the same time not trivialize the level when found.

 

For a mapset, there are two 'safe' pickups for your secret area's: the chainsaw and the automap. Unless your map is centered around fighting off melee monsters, a chainsaw is useful to save ammo or to fight off pinkies but won't be the preferred weapon-of-choice for much else. The automap is nice to have in the latter part of the level, so the player can check what he has missed before moving on to the next level.

 

And there's the classic 'early weapon' secret type. If the player gets a shotgun X+5 areas into the level there can be a secret that allows him to have it at area X, thus allowing a temporarily advantage that disappears again at X+5. If the second level gives the player the chaingun, a secret late in the first level can hand it out earlier. For rocket launcher and other high-powered weapons you can do this more than one time, eg as secret pickup in the first two levels but as regular pickup in the third. This works as long as you don't hand out its ammo until that third level.

 

This principle can be made to work for most secret pickups: It's safe to place medikits in a secret if a few rooms later you'll hand the player a free soulsphere: it allows the player to recover from a fight or mistake and/or allows him to top off his health before picking up the Soulsphere. Or a cell pickup if the player gets his first plasma rifle somewhere else later: a "useless" secret to find at that moment, but with a benefit later.

 

A pickup with a temporary effect can work the same way. If you designed an area with lots of damaging floors but with a safe path the player can take towards its objective, a secret radsuit can allow him to take shortcuts or provide safer vantage points from which to engage monsters. But if your damaging floor area becomes a maze which the player has to navigate and punishes him when taking the 'wrong' turn..? You just made your radsuit secret compulsory to find.  An invulnsphere to help with a fight? Sure, but when that fight is a couple of cyberdemons people are going to assume finding that invulnsphere is the intended way to approach that fight.

 

I do love secrets that allow you to visit areas you glimpsed earlier. If it contained former humans you previously gunned down, it will now also allow you to pick up their dropped ammo. I also like it when secrets are telegraphed: eg the soulsphere on top of a tall pillar. You know it's there; you just need to find a way to lower that pillar.

 

More drawbacks of having secrets: player nowadays mostly regard them as mandatory to find, even if they are obviously not mandatory to complete the level. As evidenced not just here, but in most walkthrough's or let's plays for other games as well. This becomes an issue if you designed a non-linear level. Simplified: imagine having two corridors leading to the chokepoint, and the player is free to choose any path towards that chokepoint. But put a secret in one of those corridors, and players will now regard that particular corridor as the 'correct' way to go. Put a secret in both corridors, and the player will now regard both corridors as mandatory areas instead of the optional alternative paths you intended those to be. 

 

Likewise, secrets shouldn't disrupt the normal, intended flow of your level. Imagine you designed a platform-type obstacle course up a mountain, with the player having to jump from ledge to ledge. But: before the last jump you add a secret on a lower ledge. But once on that lower ledge and securing that secret there's no other way to get back to that higher ledge. The player just lost all progress made, and he has to do the entire jumping sequence again. And now with all monsters already dead. Boring. Better would be if your secret area would provide an easy way back to the point where you made the player divert from the intended path.

[Cruduxy Pegg]

I prefer when they are easter eggs and references and dislike ones with a lot of items especially strong ones like spheres.  They'll make the game much harder to test balance wise as well for you since you can't figure out how everyone will go on their first playthrough. Even the most obvious secret with GIANT ARROWS pointing at it will get skipped by someone somehow, be it playing on autopilot or doing stupid shit like charging zombiemen with fists and not seeing anything in the process. 

[Bridgeburner56]

7 hours ago, Not Jabba said:

I disagree with this one. Placing ammo for a weapon you don't have is often a very clear signal that there was already a secret with that weapon in it, and you missed it. I would always read it as that type of signal if I trusted the mapper as a good level designer. 

Is it though? From what I've seen the player is far more likely to back track and retrace their steps through the level looking for a weapon they feel they should have naturally got. To me it signals a weapon that you should have picked up in due course, not a weapon you might have picked up had you found a secret.

Edit

I covered secret signalling with ammo here
"You can use ammo in the vicinity of the secret to signal it"

Edited June 6, 2020 by Bridgeburner56

[Phobus]

I think I disagree with "rules" where secrets are concerned. The main thing about them is that they're hidden, difficult to find or at least require some exploration to get to. After that, it's down to what the mapper is going for, more than anything else. I enjoy Easter eggs, particularly amusing and/or interactive ones, but an additional path, or a way to de-fang a trap, or even just an early/additional weapon or power up are all fine. Trivialising the map shouldn't even be a concern, particularly if the secret is difficult to find or the map is incredibly difficult without the secret.

[Mordeth]

57 minutes ago, Pegg said:

Even the most obvious secret with GIANT ARROWS pointing at it will get skipped by someone somehow

 

I've seen this in a Let's Play of someone going through the first episode of Mordeth. Seeing the arrow, commenting aloud "hey, there's a small arrow drawn here" and then completely ignoring what this arrow was pointing at from 2 feet away...

[RonnieJamesDiner]

@Not Jabba Hmm, perhaps you're right, and the process of actually finding a secret is (or can be), the most rewarding aspect of it. I can think of several examples from custom maps, almost instantly, where this rings true. And I appreciate you mentioning the Light Amp powerup... I always seem to forget that item exists until I see it in a map (generally, an IWAD map, though recently in Phobus' 25 Years megawad). An incredibly underused item!

9 hours ago, Not Jabba said:

huge multi-part secrets be an intended part of the overall experience of playing the map -- make it clear what the player is looking for, and maybe even how many steps they have to go through to find it (e.g., collecting the four runes in Quake or a door that requires all six keys in Doom)

 

This is an interesting idea. Having a door that requires (even say, just 3 keys), but each key is a secret hidden around the map, none of which are required for progression. That could be a lot of fun! Turns the good old fashioned "key hunt" into an optional adventure. I certainly get the "secret exit" vibe from that setup, though it would be great I suppose for anything significant, like a huge, challenging (secret/optional) fight. 

 

 

@Nine Inch Heels I appreciate the ideas! This one, in particular:

8 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Secrets for the sake of secrets: You might think this one's stupid (and in many cases it is), but it can be done well. TOD made some maps over the years which have secrets that provide no advantage whatsoever, and merely exist as an additional hurdle for UVmaxers, like for example platforming sections that don't provide you with anything other than getting the secret counter to 100%. Anybody who isn't into platforming can just finish the map without going out of their way, but, if done well, these kinds of secrets make for a nice workout or a change of pace at the very least. Not suitable for every map, but certainly not bad either.

 

I don't think this would have ever crossed my mind to do, and I actually love it. I can see why you might not want to abuse it too much, but it instantly flooded my mind with a few ideas that I would've never otherwise had, which I appreciate. I suppose, in a way, it really emphasizes the notion that finding a secret can arguably be more rewarding than the secret itself. Kind of reminds me of when developers put little "Hey, you're not supposed to be here" easter eggs in outside-of-bounds areas of their maps, as fun nods to savvy players who manage to find them. And of course, the added challenge for UVmaxers, as you mentioned.  

 

 

@Mordeth Some great points, thank you! I never really looked at the Chainsaw and Computer Map as "safe bets" for a secret, but that makes a lot of sense, as you've explained. I appreciate that one! Using a secret to allow the player to scavenge a pile of corpses that dropped goodies (Shotgunners, Chaingunners, etc.) is also a solid idea. Over time I've basically conditioned myself against placing hordes of those types of enemies in unreachable places, due to an underlying philosophy of "don't use them if the player can't pick up their stuff", which I seemed to have adopted (whether from peer pressure or my own experiences, I'll never know). Using that as a secret, however, is a nice idea!

3 hours ago, Mordeth said:

More drawbacks of having secrets: player nowadays mostly regard them as mandatory to find, even if they are obviously not mandatory to complete the level. As evidenced not just here, but in most walkthrough's or let's plays for other games as well. This becomes an issue if you designed a non-linear level. Simplified: imagine having two corridors leading to the chokepoint, and the player is free to choose any path towards that chokepoint. But put a secret in one of those corridors, and players will now regard that particular corridor as the 'correct' way to go. Put a secret in both corridors, and the player will now regard both corridors as mandatory areas instead of the optional alternative paths you intended those to be. 

 

While I do see what you're saying here, and generally agree with it, I think this can still be very situational. For instance, in your hypothetical non-linear map, I think a lot of players today are still more interested in a "fun, fast-paced experience", rather than a meticulous grind through a level to get 100% everything. Though, I could be wrong. It does beg the question in my mind -- to use your hypothetical map again, if each of the two corridors involved a "point-of-no-return" drop, and choosing one path (and its respective secret) meant forgoing the other path (and its secret), would that bother the average player? This seems like an interesting way of reinforcing that intended non-linearity. Perhaps one secret is a better weapon, while the other is a Soulsphere -- each one provides an advantage for the proceeding fight, but one is obviously more offensive, while the other is defensive in nature, giving that choice to the player. /Scratches chin aggressively 

 

 

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On the subject of sprinkling ammo for a secret weapon throughout a map, versus not doing that, personally I feel (like with so many things in Doom mapping) that this is very contextual, down to the map itself, the author, and the experience. But(!)… I think one of the most important factors there, is whether or not the mapset is intended to be played with pistol starts, or continuous.

 

If it's not explicitly stated that the mapset is intended to be played with pistol starts, finding rockets (for example) throughout a map when I don't actually have the RL yet, may just as likely lead me to believe that I missed a RL in a previous map, and that I'm simply running into all the ammo placed here for continuous players. That said, if the set is intended (explicitly) for pistol starting, I'm almost guaranteed to assume that there's a RL (hidden or not) somewhere on the level, if I'm finding ammo for it -- and having the ammo sprinkled throughout, would definitely serve as a great indication, and seems like a safer approach knowing that sometimes it's very easy to miss obvious things in a blind run; it would be hard to miss rockets if you kept running into them.  

[HAK3180]

Secret maps have always been a thing, and one that I think a lot of people appreciate. Sometimes they are used for major gimmickry, but sometimes they are just another map (e.g. E1M9). I like the application of that concept within a single map. I call them "more content secrets," but they've been around since the days of Doom 1. It does mean no 100% kills without finding secrets, but if we all like Doom so much, then why not make the reward for playing Doom well / with a keen eye playing more Doom? This also partially/potentially solves the problem of "well, players don't need this" because you get stuff in the secret and then use it (or comparable) in the secret. I do think these should always have a definite draw, that is, not just a cue as to how to access the secret but a visible item of some sort, so that when the player is at the exit door without a stats tracker, they still know they are leaving something behind. More recently than Doom 1, and sometimes more dramatically, Deadwing did these "more content secrets" quite a bit in Exomoon (and Ozonia?), so perhaps check those out. 

[seed]

6 hours ago, Pegg said:

I prefer when they are easter eggs and references and dislike ones with a lot of items especially strong ones like spheres.  They'll make the game much harder to test balance wise as well for you since you can't figure out how everyone will go on their first playthrough. Even the most obvious secret with GIANT ARROWS pointing at it will get skipped by someone somehow, be it playing on autopilot or doing stupid shit like charging zombiemen with fists and not seeing anything in the process. 

 

Essentially this for me too.

 

I am fine with secrets but not too find when they are too meaningful and can lead to a completely different experience when going for them or otherwise. I've seen maps that were quite brutal if the player decided not to search for secrets, and it isn't much fun when it happens. From a mapper's perspective I think it also make balancing it out more difficult when they end up having to take both into account. Each player has different approaches to gameplay - I personally don't secret hunt, so if I find them, good, if not, whatever, not losing sleep over it.

[stewboy]

I love putting as many secrets as I can fit in my maps. For me it's the exploratory aspect, and that when you have lots of areas that feel like they aren't part of the main 'progression', it makes the map feel more organic and less 'artificial', which is an important aspect to me personally. It does mean though that UV-maxers won't appreciate it - when I look up playthroughs of my MAP31 of Ancient Aliens a few of them complain about how long it is and how many secrets there are, but it's because they're trying to max it just for the sake of maxing it.

 

I'm honestly considering just not marking half my secrets from now on, and I think that that would actually fix this problem somewhat - if there aren't any items in a secret that count towards the item total, and the secret itself doesn't count towards the secret total, then I can put in as many secrets as I like without bothering the 100%'ers as much. Plus, it (hopefully) gives the player a more satisfying feeling when they find it. In fact, there are a couple small secret areas in AA MAP31 that aren't marked, that I haven't actually seen anyone find in a playthrough yet!

I'm also a huge fan of secrets that 'reveal' more of the map to you, or view it from a different perspective, rather than just giving you items. This makes the map feel more 'real' to me, which is the direction I've been trying to go lately with my maps. It's kind of an addictive feeling (to me at least) to feel like you're seeing the behind-the-scenes version of the map, or like you've managed to reach somewhere you're not supposed to be (even if the mapper actually fully intended for it to be reachable).

Edited June 6, 2020 by stewboy

[galileo31dos01]

I want to add "incidental secrets that aren't flagged as such" that I often appreciate more above the notion of "all hidden things should be flagged secrets", for example this X powerful artifact is in a watery pit next to a bridge or a big area part of progression, usually nothing would point you towards that direction because other things keep you looking at the next task but curiosity demands you go check that pit, and then you find an innocent soulsphere except no "a secret is revealed". The reward feels bigger sometimes than if it popped a message in the screen. Like all things it has to be done in its sweet measure, and it doesn't need to be a life-changing thing, even a single box of rockets, a vantage point over some pesky monsters, or a better view of whatever piece of scenery the mapper worked their ass off could add bonus points on the player's experience if they see them. It's the idea of finding nice extras that aren't "for the sake of maxing".

[Tetzlaff]

23 hours ago, Bridgeburner56 said:

• Don't pepper ammo through the level for a weapon that is only available in a secret. It'll confuse the player. You can use ammo in the vicinity of the secret to signal it but if it's a purely secret weapon then generally keep any ammo for it in said secret.

 

When I find ammo for a weapon that I haven't picked up yet, it makes me search actively for that secret that might provide that weapon. That's not a bad thing IMO.

 

I also like when secrets give you access to interesting spaces you seen before through a window, like the outside areas in e1m1 or e1m2.

 

Another good use of a secret is when it provides a shortcut. For example, you found the yellow key, and instead of backtracking all the way to the yellow door, you can take a shortcut through a secret corridor near the yellow key location. Don't remember if this is the case in any of the original levels though.

Edited June 6, 2020 by Tetzlaff

[RonnieJamesDiner]

1 hour ago, Tetzlaff said:

Another good use of a secret is when it provides a shortcut. For example, you found the yellow key, and instead of backtracking all the way to the yellow door, you can take a shortcut through a secret corridor near the yellow key location. Don't remember if this is the case in any of the original levels though.

 

Actually yeah (come to think of it!), Doom 2's Underhalls does this with the secret next to the red key. Not only does it give you a blue armor, but also access to the teleport shortcut that shoots you back to the opening room, closer to where you need to use the key. In fact, you can use it to outright skip the red key ambush (an interesting concept in and of itself). That's a great suggestion, and one that I somehow didn't pick up on after all these years of playing Underhalls, haha...

 

 

4 hours ago, stewboy said:

I'm also a huge fan of secrets that 'reveal' more of the map to you, or view it from a different perspective, rather than just giving you items. This makes the map feel more 'real' to me, which is the direction I've been trying to go lately with my maps. It's kind of an addictive feeling (to me at least) to feel like you're seeing the behind-the-scenes version of the map, or like you've managed to reach somewhere you're not supposed to be (even if the mapper actually fully intended for it to be reachable).

 

This idea seems to be coming up a bit (an E1M2 sort of thing), and I'm really digging it. Again, using a secret to reveal a beautiful vista, or a better look at the map from the "outside", seems fun and never really occurred to me (as something to do intentionally).

 

I'm quite intrigued that there are still a few small, hidden areas in your AA map that you've still never seen anyone discover in a playthrough. I think there's some merit to the idea of intentionally avoiding the "secret" flag -- in addition to the points you made about 100%'ers, and the great points that galileo made -- I think it leaves room for a little bit of mystery. For a player who loves the map, and inherently enjoys exploration, there will always be that wonderment of "...well, what else might be hidden around here?". 

[Polri]

I like it when a secret also feels like a secret place in-universe. Possible examples:

- a techbase level where the secrets feel like maintenance areas which would normally be inaccessible

- a castle level where secrets are hidden behind wooden panels, paintings etc

- secrets you can only reach by travelling quite a distance through damaging floors, away from the regular playing area, conveying the message that "you're not supposed to be here"

[galileo31dos01]

3 hours ago, RonnieJamesDiner said:

I think there's some merit to the idea of intentionally avoiding the "secret" flag -- in addition to the points you made about 100%'ers, and the great points that galileo made -- I think it leaves room for a little bit of mystery.

 

There's an episode replacement called "Dawn of the Dead" where I started to notice this idea of how not every hidden treasure was flagged secret and yet the feeling of being rewarded for making a detour through non-progression areas was as strong as when finding official secrets, or stronger even. Now I can also think of the early backpack in Requiem map 27, or the soulsphere in KSutra map mmm 04 or 05 I think (you have to jump on thin ledges to get it) just to brainstorm a couple examples, these would ordinarily use the secret flag but how oddly satisfying it feels when there's no "mandatory" side to it.

 

Also, unofficial secrets could be good to provide extra boosts for continuous balancing imo, which mappers from older wads tended to do at the end of the maps. 

[Mangcubus]

As somebody that likes going for 100% kills, I dislike when enemies are hidden in super hard-to-find secrets. It's a big mapping pet peeve of mine.

[Juka]

I'll second the opinion on secrets being their own reward, finding them should be satisfying, I like when secret areas are visible through a window before or they have a different texture/setting, like the orange spiral secret in Sunlust's Map 03. Even if the secret is just some ammo or health, if it feels "secret" then it's all good.

About secret keys, I think they add to gameplay but shouldn't be used all the time, if I recall correctly there's one level in Doom's E1 with a secret yellow key, and BTSX E1 does it once too in Tricyclic Looper with a secret blue key which leads to a secret exit. The player can just ignore secrets on any given level, but ignoring a closed door feels like a waste so I think this encourages the player to look for that secret key before leaving the level. In BTSX you can actually spot the blue key through some grates, so it just teases the player more, finding a secret exit behind the blue door is very rewarding!
EDIT: I don't know if this counts as necro, thread is kinda "old"

Edited June 26, 2020 by Juka

[Jayextee]

I'm a fan of obvious but low-tier secrets. A glaringly-different wall-texture, opens up to award a small handful of blue bottle health bonuses? GIMMEGIMMEGIMME.

I've put some of that kinda thing in a couple of recent maps of mine. IMO it's a nice generous gesture to the player to hand them at least one secret they're going to basically trip over, and ensure they aren't leaving the map with 0%.

[Boaby Kenobi]

On 6/5/2020 at 6:02 PM, RonnieJamesDiner said:

Are there any memorable examples from the IWADS, or PWADS, that stick out to you?

 

The chainsaw in map 2 of episode 1 in Doom.