Does Doom 2016 have much life beyond its id campaign?

[printz]

I felt that Doom 2016 ended too abruptly and not satisfying at all. Neither the quality of the last levels nor the plot resolution nor the cliffhanger felt any good. Game over, I won, goodbye, see me later.

 

Is the SnapMap database all that's left for Doom 2016 extra content? It's sad I don't see more activity from this community, I thought SnapMap was supposed to make it fun and easy. This games competes with classic Doom at its hectic gameplay. Sure, it lacks any personality, doesn't feel like a compelling universe to explore (stark contrast to Doom 3). But surely deserves more challenging maps like its own Memento Mori etc. Can you recommend any high-quality snapmaps? :)

 

I mean that for such a free-flowing combat game like this one, the best thing that would work for it would be a random hell generator to make arenas with jump pads and all. Alas, we don't have this.

Edited June 8, 2020 by printz

[Gokuma]

Easy to find in the game under top-rated, there's a River City Ransom snap map with subtle gameplay changes that's pretty cool though I didn't finish it.

 

These are probably good: https://www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/111671-my-lifes-work/

 

I haven't tried snap map multiplayer yet.  The usual multiplayer modes rotate through the stockmaps and seemed to be plagued by cheaters using aimbots and speedhacks, practically peeing in their own bowl of soup, since the pool of multiplayers is so small.   And people play various types of team modes only.  Can private games be organized?   Maybe if you just go to snap multi there's some people playing but I don't know.   Playing the bunch of recent ZDaemon Free-for-all I managed to win 1st place 3 times in games ranging 7 to 11 players and got 2nd and 3rd a bunch of times, at least once I got warmed up and on a roll, but I've done rather crappy or mediocre at best in Doom 2016.   I did get somewhere from 1st to 3rd place once after most of the players quit for the night.  I really suck at Eternal's battlemode and just play it for weekly challenge xp.   It's cool as a novelty and I appreciate they're TRYING to balance 1 vs 2, but they really need to add other multiplayer to that game. Apparently they did lay groundwork for modding in Eternal so we will see editing eventually in that.   Revenant100's video were he tried to make a massive revenant hoard in Doom 2016 is pretty funny, but really the game's mapping/modding capabilities are better than that.   You just can't have more than 12 monsters spawned at one time so monsters are placed to be spawned rather than all present the whole time the map is being played.   Eternal still has some similar limitation.   I left some weak zombies alive to farm for resources, but when I fast traveled back to that area they were gone.

 

While I was waiting for denuvo to be removed from Eternal, I went back to 2016, maxed out my suit and weapons, and found more classic levels.   After finishing Eternal's campaign already maxing out stuff along the way, I configured 2016's keys about the same as Eternal and got the last collectible I was missing.   Still need to find five more classic maps and two codex. 

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by Gokuma

[Boaby Kenobi]

I've played through the campaign two or three times now and I enjoyed it a lot but as much as I think the levels are okay I don't think there's anything too memorable. It does become very predictable and sometimes you find yourself stuck as you're left hunting down one single imp as you can't leave an area until all enemies are killed and that can be annoying too. 

[RonnieJamesDiner]

(Sorry, wall of text inbound...)

 

As far as the campaign went, I think the most replayability I was getting out of it (before Eternal dropped) was attempting to beat it on Ultra-Nightmare. I never actually did, but I found repeated attempts quite enjoyable. Regardless, dozens of campaign playthroughs did prove to me just how linear that game feels (both in level design, but even the combat loop in general), and the enemy roster is exceptionally lacking in terms of variety.

 

That second point was important for SnapMap. The enemies in 2016 were basically 1 of 2 variations. Either they bum rushed you to get in your face (Pinky, Hellknight, Lost Soul), or they stood back and lobbed easily-dodged projectiles (Soldier, Hellrazer, Revenant, Mancubus). Or, they were some mixture of both (Imp, Cacodemon, Baron).

 

The only enemy that actually offered up any kind of interesting gameplay mechanic on their own, was the Summoner -- an enemy that wasn’t actually included in SnapMap officially (yeah, it was later found in the game files and someone made it available in the SnapMap community, but it was still a tad janky, and didn’t summon demons).

 

So, in theory we can try to use SnapMap to add a little more non-linearity to the level design, and try to use the enemies (despite their limited combat mechanics) in more creative ways. But, now we get into some of the issues with SnapMap itself.

 

• First and foremost, the hard limit of 12 demons at a time (even including the fodder types). This still leaves room for creating fun combat scenarios – for instance, upon activating a lockdown arena, you can spawn 12 Imps, and setup their deaths to trigger, say, 4 Hellknights and a Pinky when 5 Imps are dead, and a Baron and 2 Mancubi when all of the Imps are dead, and you’ll still wind up with a pretty fun arena. But it goes without saying that, there’s only so many interesting setups you can make with 12 monsters. If the classic Doom modding scene has proved anything, it’s that large hordes of monsters have been crucial to extending Doom’s gameplay into more engaging territory.
• Second, the boss situation. The Cyberdemon, Hell Guards, and Mastermind were not made available to SnapMap. If you want a boss, you have to make one yourself by buffing a regular enemy (which generally means adjusting their health and damage to +500%, and maybe adding some VFX to them). This gets old quick. Of course, even the classic Doom bosses could get worn out, but again that’s where large hordes came into view – sometimes a great “boss” encounter in a classic Doom map is a huge, slaughter-esque wave of demons. Can’t do that in SnapMap.
• Third, modules versus custom geometry. Arguably one of the more interesting options available in SnapMap is being able to create entirely custom environments from “volume blocks”. Some people have made some beautiful stuff with it, as painstaking as it must have been (though, that’s kind of the nature of brush work). The trouble is, you’ll always notice that in a “custom geo” map, combat always takes place on the flat ground at the lowest point – you see a lot of huge, flat arenas, for instance. This is because you can’t actually add enemy navigation to custom geometry made out of volume blocks. The basic “world” has a nav mesh across the world “floor”, and that’s it. If you want interesting enemy navigation with verticality and other types of variation and obstacles, you’re stuck with modules, with their built-in nav meshes. And, huge flat arenas – regardless of how “pretty” they look – are boring as hell, made worse by 2016’s bestiary.
• Fourth, the other hard limits. The “Network” limit can be removed or worked around, and the “Decals” and “Demons” limits aren’t ever very intrusive, especially the latter since spawning enemies is far more viable given the 12 monster cap, so really the “Demons” limit gets used primarily for bosses. The “Objects” limit can be troublesome, depending on how much prop detail you’re going for, but it’s the “Memory” limit that hinders everything the most (and rather egregiously). This limit basically forces you to kneecap your creativity, sacrificing detail if you’re hoping to create any kind of a longer map, or vice versa. If you get into any sort of groove or rhythm with a SnapMap level, it’s generally the Memory limit that’ll slap you in the face before anything else.

 

 

The sad thing about all of this is, SnapMap handles just about every other element for crafting levels with a surprising degree of care. When it comes to adding music, game logic and events, mission objectives, story elements, VFX, SFX, ambient soundscapes, atmospheric filters, weapon/player upgrades... there’s a ton of variety available here, and you can create some super cool stuff without a lot of work. But the crux of the whole thing is combat, and unfortunately, there are just enough limitations here to make SnapMap a rather frustrating chore to deal with, simply in terms of having to narrow your ideas. When coming from the Doom 2 modding scene, for instance, where the skies are the limit in terms of combat and creativity, this can be really disheartening.

 

That said... do I think there’s the opportunity for an awesome, full-length campaign with SnapMap, using the prefab modules for a series of short, punchy maps? Absolutely. You just need someone willing to do it, I guess.

Edited June 14, 2020 by RonnieJamesDiner

[printz]

Thanks for the explanations. Now I wonder if the id campaign is also limited at 12 monsters per combat! Anyway, given the high threat rating, I think fighting 12 of monsters at a time is not too little. What I expect to require attention is what happens if a monster gets stuck: it would keep the slot busy while it struggles to find you. Maybe the map should then be scripted to kill it! Can SnapMap do it? Can you also script nigh-unlimited respawns so the map never gets empty (while also despawning monsters farther away)?

 

I'm kinda glad the summoner is banned... that monster is overpowered really. I never managed to beat it in a fair fight (without cheesing it out with chainsaw, berserk or bfg). It fires a near lethal wave into you, and just when you're ready to shoot it, it teleports away, while (presumably) producing hell knights and shit.

 

But it's too bad you can't place bosses, not even de-bossed versions thereof. The cyberdemon and spiderdemon deserved more use, they're iconic to Doom.

[RonnieJamesDiner]

7 hours ago, printz said:

Now I wonder if the id campaign is also limited at 12 monsters per combat!

 

Mm, that I'm not sure. I can't remember if anyone at id ever explicitly said that or not. I can't really recall a moment in the campaign that seemed to have more than 12, but I'm not sure if it's necessarily a limitation they had, or just a design choice (not to overwhelm the player). Though, I remember someone from the dev team talking (I think at GDC) about one of the needs for locked-in fights being that the game couldn't really handle an entire levels worth of AI running around, should the player have chosen to just skip past everything as they went. So maybe they do have some kind of hard limit. I've noticed that in the rare places you can actually skip enemies throughout the game -- such as the pipeline bridge in Argent Tower -- the enemies instantly de-spawn the moment you get past their "zone".

 

7 hours ago, printz said:

What I expect to require attention is what happens if a monster gets stuck: it would keep the slot busy while it struggles to find you. Maybe the map should then be scripted to kill it! Can SnapMap do it? Can you also script nigh-unlimited respawns so the map never gets empty (while also despawning monsters farther away)?

 

Yeah that can certainly become an issue. Generally speaking, people lean towards the "locked-in arena" system, so you clear groups of enemies one at a time as you go. SnapMap has a "Count" object you can use, that signals an output of your choice (say, a door unlocking) whenever the max count is reached, which you can then tie to each demon in the room (i.e. when each demon dies, their deaths add to the count by 1 respectively). So if you set up an arena to have 3 maxed out waves -- 36 demons in total -- you can just set the Counter to 36 and you're good to go. Assuming the game doesn't fuck up any of the spawns, which can happen from time to time. But generally it's a good system.

 

You can still run into other glitches with SnapMap. I've seen Hellknights literally yeet themselves out of the world geometry because they attempted to leap too close to a wall or ceiling, on more than one occasion. Sadly, being out in the "void" doesn't actually kill them, and you can't kill them, so if they're tied to a Counter or anything, it's just buggered. That gets aggravating.

 

But yes, you can very easily create an "endless horde mode", by simply connecting a group spawner to a Relay. It'll loop forever, spawning new demons as slots become available. There are also pre-programmed Event objects you can use, including a "Survival" event that will "spawn an increasingly difficult onslaught of demons for the duration of the event". They even created "AI Conductors" that will, supposedly, "auto-populate a linear level with increasingly difficult demon encounters that do not respawn behind you". I've tried using the Conductor before, and... well, it's good for a laugh but that's about it. Definitely not a substitute for hand-crafted enemy placement. 

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by RonnieJamesDiner

[Chip]

I like Snapmap! 

There, I said it! I can go on with my life, now. 

[snapshot]

There were a few articles that had some neat SnapMap ids on moddb but they're no longer there for some reason, this is one of the maps I remember the most, there was another nice custom geo level made with classic assets that had a tower-like structure and neat terrain tricks but I don't remember its name, don't know how active the SnapMap scene is nowadays.

EDIT: Found it, looks like RHG45 is still doing SnapMap playthroughs occasionally too.

Edited June 25, 2020 by sluggard