When is the first DLC Due?

[D4NUK1]

6 hours ago, whatup876 said:

To add more to my post: An "ultimate" Doom game could have been something like Sonic Mania/Generations or something for Doom and Doom 6 (as in, the game after Eternal) wouldn't fit that because the reboot games are too much of their own version of Doom.

A reason why we'd like to see more of classic Doom in new Doom is because there's just a lot of good stuff in it and a case of "nobody would complain, not even those that got mad at Doomguy having a face and exposed arms".

 

But then there's a case of "if you bring back X, might as well also bring back Y so it doesn't feel half delivered" which can lead to too much bringing back something that it "overtakes" the direction of these games, specially since a lot of the design elements come off as "we can't really replicate 90's Doom that easily, so we had to be creative".

Sometimes there's some good reason on why they brought back X but not Y, because then they'd have to change a lot more to make it fit and we could lose something good from it.

 

As much i like how you explained this post, i don't see this example as the ultimate Doom. Doom in the most "ultimate" way is action packed killing demons as the levels progress. Is not the lore, is not if you are a Marine or a Slayer. Is just you, killing demon in a action packed way.

And Eternal just blow it in that way. Doom Eternal is the most ultimate Doom that can be done, and i really hope they expand it, make it better that make some gameplay changes to fit the old formula.

The old formula just don't work now with DOOM with how spoiled im a with Eternal gameplay. Maybe in a future where there more maps, arenas, levels, and help, invasions, is will be a nice way to say, this is the ultimate Doom.

Also lol'ed at 

Quote

Also... I bought the game, so i can complain about whatever i want, specially when the price is way more expensive than it should for the quality of the content i am getting, and the costumer is always right.
They sold me a product, the product is not good enough, i am not satisfied, so i describe all the problems it has and how it could be good.

You just could, see more reviews, there was like a good ones with mixed take's that maybe should take in care, but say the Quality of the content is bad, sorry, just make me go ROLF.

[jazzmaster9]

1 hour ago, D88M3R said:

If they do, why they would make a conscious decision to ignore everything about it, instead of bringing that stuff into a modern light and expanding/improving upon it?
 

Because maybe they wanted to add new ideas instead of rehashing old ones over over. Maybe they are idiots who cant design good doom games (thats the answer you are looking for)... Or Maybe just maybe... Maybe they appreciated different aspects from the game that you do.

 

They leaned into the fast paced combat, movemenr and weapon variety of the classics. 

 

1 hour ago, D88M3R said:

What makes Doom be Doom is not subjective, it is right there in the game,

What is Doom? Asnwer that. and lets see if Everyone will universally agree 100% this Thread already proves that people appreciate's Doom in a different way.

 

Eternal has the fast paced combat and gameplay that i enjoy in Doom.

Also has the world traversal and secret hunting i enjoyed in the classics.

Is my idea of Doom wrong? Because Doom Eternal is a lot of what i wanted in a doom game (minus the purple sludge. No one like that)

So i must be wrong then right? I dont appreciate Classic doom because i like eternal.

 

1 hour ago, D88M3R said:

I am not pretentious

Sure buddy

 

1 hour ago, D88M3R said:

 they did not bring anything from the classic games, they did not took the old games ideas and "translate" them into modern gaming concepts graphics and etcetera, they just did something completely different.

And there is nothing wrong with that. Just because they didnt make it the way you like does not make it bad.

 

1 hour ago, D88M3R said:

Also... I bought the game, so i can complain about whatever i want, 

No one said you couldn't... 

 

But dont expect your cristism to be taken as objective fact. They arent.

 

1 hour ago, D88M3R said:

They sold me a product, the product is not good enough

Fair. But again dont make it sound like making a copy paste of Doom 1 will be objectively better.

 

Id are fans of the classics like you and me. You can see how passionate they were gushing about Doom, Quake 3 Arena. Etc

But thats not good enough for your pretentious mindset because they dared not to make a good that fits your mold.

 

But i guess i cant change you mind

Id software dont know what Doom is and thats FACT right?  Sure you are conrrect. 100%

 

Edited August 18, 2020 by jazzmaster9

[whatup876]

I meant like a game that tried to represent as much of the franchise as a whole as possible.

Because as good as Eternal is, it doesn't carry everything. (whether or not it even needs)

Whether it's how armor worked, how some enemies work, some parts of the aesthetic, how some songs sound besides just metal, even the more stylish classic DOOM logo that isn't just a minimalist etc...

 

It's a reason why i keep mentioning MetaDoom, because the premise of that mod is basically "add a lot from the other games as much as possible (even the obscure, almost lost stuff), while still retaining elements from the classic Doom, even if some stuff is merged or fused", because that might as well be a more interesting, even if almost too dream-like idea.

It's a fan mod after all but it's honest about the concept.

 

If we never reach that level, it's more of a "we can't" and not so much of a "we don't need too" because in a timeline where that ever happen, i can't imagine that making anyone upset.

Because there's a lot of things that nobody is against and can techncally work.

Edited August 18, 2020 by whatup876
edit

[D88M3R]

On 8/18/2020 at 12:15 AM, jazzmaster9 said:

1-Because maybe they wanted to add new ideas instead of rehashing old ones over over. Maybe they are idiots who cant design good doom games (thats the answer you are looking for)... Or Maybe just maybe... Maybe they appreciated different aspects from the game that you do.

 

They leaned into the fast paced combat, movemenr and weapon variety of the classics. 

 

2-What is Doom? Asnwer that. and lets see if Everyone will universally agree 100% this Thread already proves that people appreciate's Doom in a different way.

 

Eternal has the fast paced combat and gameplay that i enjoy in Doom.

Also has the world traversal and secret hunting i enjoyed in the classics.

Is my idea of Doom wrong? Because Doom Eternal is a lot of what i wanted in a doom game (minus the purple sludge. No one like that)

So i must be wrong then right? I dont appreciate Classic doom because i like eternal.

 

3-Sure buddy

 

4-And there is nothing wrong with that. Just because they didnt make it the way you like does not make it bad.

 

5-No one said you couldn't... 

 

But dont expect your cristism to be taken as objective fact. They arent.

 

6-Fair. But again dont make it sound like making a copy paste of Doom 1 will be objectively better.

 

Id are fans of the classics like you and me. You can see how passionate they were gushing about Doom, Quake 3 Arena. Etc

But thats not good enough for your pretentious mindset because they dared not to make a good that fits your mold.

 

But i guess i cant change you mind

Id software dont know what Doom is and thats FACT right?  Sure you are conrrect. 100%

 

Sorry for the late answer, i put numbers because i dont know how to do the multi-quote thing, here i go:

1-They wanted to do a modern take on Doom, and that is great, but by playing it it feels clike they took the wrong approach, from the wrong sources, the comic book, Brutal Doom, some modern fps, etc. The story of Eternal is downright very similar to the one of God of War, they even turned Doomguy into a silent Kratos. 
I dont think the developers are idiots are idiots, i am sure they are nice people, their hearts seems to be in the right place and the game is very well made on a technical level, but it also feels like is called Doom because it would sell more.

Is like they went into the opposite extreme of what Doom 3 was, while something in the middle of Doom 3 and Eternal would have been perfect.

They did leaned into that stuff you mention, but also added their own spin on things which makes the gameplay less fun and more complex for complexity sake, is not just that they brought them into modern times but they also twisted them to their idea of "fun".
And the game is fun at times, but it also gets repetitive and boring very soon, Doom 2016 is a chore to play a second time, and i have not replayed Eternal but i dont feel much like doing it either, there is simply no hook, no replayabilty, while i could play Doom 1 and 2 over and over again and never get bored.

2-Well the funny thing is that if you describe it, the basic idea is the same for both the new and old Dooms, but for example the old Dooms have varied level design, the new ones is just pure arenas, the old Dooms had horror and suspense elements, the new ones is self aware comic book/heavy metal cover non stop adrenaline filled action tone, the old ones had exploration for resources, here you get the resources from combat and exploration is only for secrets to get points for the whole dumb upgrades system .
I could keep going: the old Dooms had atmosphere, each level had almost a personality of its own, in the new ones there is no atmosphere and the levels are merely backgrounds for the arenas, the old ones had slower moments, it was not totally serious but it was dark (literally and metaphorically), it had "satanic" imagery and corpses everywhere, in the new ones you have to be jumping very quickly around all the time in generic levels.
They also had more ambient music at times but in the new ones every aspect is non stop action so to speak.

The idea is the same but here is taken to an almost self parody extreme.

And Doom is an action game with horror and action elements that focus in combat and exploration, but in the old ones the goal was to exit the level alive, the combat was a means to an end, not the other way around.

I think the flaws have been well explained by the Civvie and Yahtzee videos.

3-I do get pretentious at times, that is fair.

4-Okay, but first, that does not make it great either, it just looks great because of how mediocre most games are nowadays, and second, if they did not bring anything from the old games (except for pandering) why call it Doom in the first place?

5-Maybe, but i have read here and in other places some people saying the same thing i say, and it also not an objective fact that the new games are either like the old ones or that they are great.

6-I dont want a copy paste, i want a new version of the same style of game, technology has advanced so much that they can do a great game, and the old Dooms still got so much stuff right that even new games dont get. (both the new Dooms and new games in general i mean)

I get that the developers are fans, i get that they maybe have played the old Dooms and thought: "okay, how would this play if it was done today?" but then they put stuff like piñata monsters or dumb useless upgrades or changed level design for arenas and i wonder what they were thinking, or if they put modern gaming crap just for the sake of being modern.
And maybe they do know, but they dont have to ignore, maybe they should consult Romero, Carmack and the others when they have doubts.

[whatup876]

I do think the new games sort of have that problem of "it's more about how the public sees a franchise than the franchise itself" but at least they're still fun on their own, even if they naturally feel more like spin offs because of what elements they focus on. (something i think can also apply to Doom 3)

And this view from the public sort of feels recent, otherwise we probably wouldn't have the Doom easter egg in Duke Nukem 3D with Doomguy's corpse (or we'd still have it but more people would get angry) and even before the "here's something you didn't know about the Doomguy" copypastea, there was that "i think Halo is a pretty cool guy eh kills aliens and doesn't afraid of anything" meme, so in some way, Doom's return or public perception feels like it has something to do with people thinking Halo robbed Doom's throne as the "face" of FPS.

 

I feel like a way to make modern Doom closer to classic Doom would be a different phase/focus like i mentioned and one reason for a simpler aesthetic was in case the extremely detailed art style was an obstacle for things that could have been done in gameplay/tech.

 

With the case of mods and wads, you may get this notion that "this fanfiction material feels more canon" because of how it doesn't reinvent (or rather reboots) the core since it's still there.

I'm sure even id themselves are aware of it and i feel like we could wait until this phase of Doom reaches its conclusion before we even try this more "faithfull" Doom phase, even if it means feeling like a retro indie FPS with help and support from the fanbase itself.

 

I guess a problem with this pipedream "throwback" Doom game i describe is if it's too reliant on existing material (even if it's something obscure or rarely used), so something new or a new way of using something old is somewhat needed. (whether it's enemies, levels, weapons, abilities or even stuff like how Doomguy's face behaves and reacts to stuff)

There's also the scope/ambiguity/potential and how much you can do, that at best it would lead to post launch content or at worst, cut content, unless you had a side mode/content with stuff not available in the main game/campaign. (even with the mindset of "more good less bad" or something, because of the needed effort and size of the game)

 

I think what would be interesting on a new Doom game that tries to be "true" to its origins or more pleasing to hardcore fans is if some fans look back at the 2016/Eternal phase and think "you know, may they were better than how i remember them".

[jazzmaster9]

On 8/28/2020 at 5:32 AM, D88M3R said:

I think the flaws have been well explained by the Civvie and Yahtzee videos.
 

Funny you mention CV Because he loves Doom Eternal.

"Blows Doom 2016 out of the water" - Civvie11

 

I guess he doesnt know what real Doom is right?

 

In other words. Everyone has a Different interpretation of what Doom is. Yours or mine are not and never going to be the definitive "This is what Doom should be"

 

 

So to say something "is or isnt Doom" is moot. You can argue if an idea is good or bad but lets not pretend its because the developers dont Know Doom just because they didnt subscribe to YOUR idea of Doom.

 

On 8/28/2020 at 5:32 AM, D88M3R said:

it just looks great because of how mediocre most games are nowadays, and second, if they did not bring anything from the old games (except for pandering) why call it Doom in the first place?
 

No it looks great because it does what it does very well. (Did you even watch CV-11s video? i doubt it)

A good game is a good game regardless of what other things are being released.

 

And are we just going to pretend that non of the monsters, weapons Secret hunting or fast paced game play came over from the old game?

Just because you didnt like how its implemented doesnt mean they "didnt bring anything from the old game".

 

On 8/28/2020 at 5:32 AM, D88M3R said:

maybe they should consult Romero, Carmack and the others when they have doubts.

I think they are doing fine by themselves.

 

But again its obvious i cant change your mind. Doom will forever be bad in your eyes. 

Edited September 1, 2020 by jazzmaster9

[whatup876]

Come to think of it, trying to get a more in-depth explanation of how Doom changed may at times sound like a conspiracy theory when you realize the many ways the fans and general public affected it.

Like, you think of how "Doomguy is the strongest" is like a fanbase joke that came around the late 2000's/early 2010's and an example of it is like one or two 4chan screenshots where that one copypasta originates, but someone can interpret it as "wow 4chan created Doomguy" or something because it probably originated from somewhere else.

It may also involve something to do with that Carmack quote about story in games, whether it's because you end up taking Doom a bit more seriously than you should or because you believe that quote may had lead to an effect where even gameplay seems overlooked at times.

 

The fact that Doom is even associated with experimentation/different portrayals (both in the actual series and the fanbase/most people) along with a hinted multiverse in the new lore and the comic book inspiration (a medium where characters had multiple iterations) makes me wonder if they could ever try to revisit or even make some different iteration of Doom, alongside the 2016/Eternal one.

Like how Sonic has both classic and modern going around.

 

Like, if id ever felt like giving Doom 3 another chance if they ever get the right people behind a good expansion or a rerelease that didn't suck, while the Doom 6 is still being made.

[Walker]

 

On 8/28/2020 at 6:32 AM, D88M3R said:

I think the flaws have been well explained by the Civvie and Yahtzee videos.

 

 

Have you seen his video all the way? He said that he didn't know what to do if he was going to get better than this at the end of the video.

[GuyMcBrofist]

It's coming October 20th.