Unpopular Doom Opinions

[skillsaw]

My hope is that with widespread adoption of UMAPINFO into various ports, over the next few years mappers will feel free to establish their own episodic structures, with variable secret maps, boss maps, story splash screens etc, rather than adhering to Doom 2's (somewhat tired and predictable) 32-level format. This will, of course, wreak havoc on everyone's MAP07/MAP15/MAP29 tier list but who really cares if we're more free to make what we really want with the structure that we really want.

[ReaperAA]

23 hours ago, Shibainumaster said:

I don't know if this counts, but i think OTEX is objectively worse than more Vanilla styled texture packs. The reasoning is because this pack can only be used in a vaccum, most other resources create a stark contrast between the BUILDEngine styled OTEX and everything else.

 

I wouldn't say OTEX is objectively worse than other texture packs. It's far more well detailed and complete than any other texture pack out there. With that said, I do agree that it works best in isolation. It has its own distinct style (just as BTSX texture and AAtex have their unique style) that mixing it with more vanilla-ish textures require extreme care, if they have to be mixing at all.

Edited July 31, 2022 by ReaperAA

[Shibainumaster]

41 minutes ago, ReaperAA said:

 

I wouldn't say OTEX is objectively worse than other texture packs. It's far more well detailed and complete than any other texture pack out there. With that said, I do agree that it works best in isolation. It has its own distinct style (just as BTSX texture and AAtex have their unique style) that mixing it with more vanilla-ish textures require either extreme, if they have to be mixing at all.

I agree with the 2nd part but i need to explain the first one, OTEX is bad in ym eyes due to previously mentioned unflexibility.

[heliumlamb]

fact: cacos are always happy to see you
opinion, not necessarily unpopular:
as a result, this makes makes it impossible for me to be unhappy when i see them.

[Sonikkumania]

1 hour ago, heliumlamb said:

fact: cacos are always happy to see you
opinion, not necessarily unpopular:
as a result, this makes makes it impossible for me to be unhappy when i see them.

Cacos are adorable in a way.

[Azure_Horror]

On 7/30/2022 at 11:26 AM, Shibainumaster said:

I don't know if this counts, but i think OTEX is objectively worse than more Vanilla styled texture packs. The reasoning is because this pack can only be used in a vaccum, most other resources create a stark contrast between the BUILDEngine styled OTEX and everything else.

And

2 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

I wouldn't say OTEX is objectively worse than other texture packs. It's far more well detailed and complete than any other texture pack out there. With that said, I do agree that it works best in isolation. It has its own distinct style (just as BTSX texture and AAtex have their unique style) that mixing it with more vanilla-ish textures require extreme care, if they have to be mixing at all. 

 

Imho, Eviternity maps 21 or 22 can easily be mixed with Scythe Episode 3 maps, and the result would look pretty harmoniously. Red Hell can have both OTEX and IWAD textures together. Some techbase maps from Eviternuty also could incorporate IWAD textures and flats. (think of Eviternity maps 08, 09, 16 or 18. They all can easily have good old green nukage, and some IWAD-style metal or concrete walls).

 

And if we add cc4 texture pack - than we have a perfect bridge between OTEX and classics. CC4 texture pack also has some pretty detailed textures, and it definetly can be combined with IWAD visuals.

 

I think that a popular project mixing OTEX and non-OTEX will get released eventually.

[Shibainumaster]

8 minutes ago, Azure_Horror said:

And

 

Imho, Eviternity maps 21 or 22 can easily be mixed with Scythe Episode 3 maps, and the result would look pretty harmoniously. Red Hell can have both OTEX and IWAD textures together. Some techbase maps from Eviternuty also could incorporate IWAD textures and flats. (think of Eviternity maps 08, 09, 16 or 18. They all can easily have good old green nukage, and some IWAD-style metal or concrete walls).

 

And if we add cc4 texture pack - than we have a perfect bridge between OTEX and classics. CC4 texture pack also has some pretty detailed textures, and it definetly can be combined with IWAD visuals.

 

I think that a popular project mixing OTEX and non-OTEX will get released eventually.

CC4 is overrated too.

[Azure_Horror]

10 minutes ago, Shibainumaster said:

CC4 is overrated too. 

 

But it definitely can be combined with older texture sets. @WH-Wilou84 made a few maps like that.

 

Edit - Unpopular Opinion:

A texture set cannot be overrated by map players.

Textures a like artist's paints. If the artist can make it work - great!

But paints and canvas by themselves do not make a painting without an artist.

Edited July 31, 2022 by Azure_Horror
Added unpopular opinion to stay on topic

[yakfak]

ickwall is such a gnice talkative set of textures to be weird with... very fun to make gradients with or draw little offset mosaics etc. i kinda find it irritating when I see large expanses of auto-aligned wall, i prefer the idea of a builder leaving their mark on what they built

[Nefelibeta]

I don't really understand why people are so keen about vanilla and limit-removing when it comes to the "classic wads" related projects. Especially when it's meant to be a tribute or a sequel, not DTWID. Hey, do you know why Hell Revealed, Memento Mori, Icarus: Alien Vendetta don't use Boom or MBF? They didn't exist, dumbasses.

[Bauul]

11 hours ago, Shibainumaster said:

I agree with the 2nd part but i need to explain the first one, OTEX is bad in ym eyes due to previously mentioned unflexibility.

 

I freely mixed Otex with other texture packs in Elementalism, it worked great.

 

Just because it doesn't particularly mix with the vanilla IWAD textures doesn't mean it doesn't mix with anything at all. 

[Roofi]

23 minutes ago, Nefelibeta said:

I don't really understand why people are so keen about vanilla and limit-removing when it comes to the "classic wads" related projects. Especially when it's meant to be a tribute or a sequel, not DTWID. Hey, do you know why Hell Revealed, Memento Mori, Icarus: Alien Vendetta don't use Boom or MBF? They didn't exist, dumbasses.

 

Boom already exist since 1998 according to the doomwiki article.

 

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Boom

 

I think especially that it is very difficult to make a sequel to an old wad because it came out in a certain context. Making a HR3 today makes no sense even in vanilla format as many wads have surpassed the once legendary difficulty of the Hell Revealed series for instance.

 

For the tributes , I completely understand the mapper wanting to break away from the original format. For the Mayhem 22 project, I made two HR tribute maps in limit-removing format.

 

However, for the sequels, I find it dishonest. I think it's taking over a successful series for nothing. For example, if you want to make a megawad in Boom format with lots of new textures, why would you make a sequel to Alien Vendetta? The format is important. AV was known for offering detailed and adventurous maps while maintaining vanilla compatibility.

 

 

 

Edited July 31, 2022 by Roofi

[Thelokk]

Just now, Bauul said:

 

Just because it doesn't particularly mix with the vanilla IWAD textures doesn't mean it doesn't mix with anything at all. 

 

Which is also not universally true, depends on which IWAD texture groups we're talking about.

[Azure_Horror]

33 minutes ago, Nefelibeta said:

I don't really understand why people are so keen about vanilla and limit-removing when it comes to the "classic wads" related projects. Especially when it's meant to be a tribute or a sequel, not DTWID.

 

Lost soul limit and ghost monsters are pretty significant part of the gameplay mechanics. Going to Boom or beyond impacts those things. Thus, vanilla and limit-removing are a big deal in this regard. Doubly so, if we consider a tribute to an old WAD, which was made with paticular mechanics in mind.

 

Plus, an abilty to play a level in Chocolate Doom, or, even better, in Doom2.exe adds a lot to "classic wad" feeling.

 

(That said, I will gladly check a MBF-21 tribute to Alien Vendetta, or an Eternity Engine-exclusive Plutonia sequel)

 

14 minutes ago, Roofi said:

I think especially that it is very difficult to make a sequel to an old wad because it came out in a certain context. Making a HR3 today makes no sense even in vanilla format as many wads have surpassed the once legendary difficulty of the Hell Revealed series.

 

It is true that modern challenging WADs have surpassed Hell Revealed long time ago.

However...

 

Unpopular opinion: Hell Revealed 1 and 2 have some cool moments that are abscent from modern WADs. Hell Revealed WADs should be studied, not left aside to gather dust.

Edited July 31, 2022 by Azure_Horror

[Nefelibeta]

3 minutes ago, Roofi said:

Boom already exist since 1998 according to the doomwiki article.

To be honest I don't think Boom is popular at that point, since there aren't a lot of boom maps (at least popular ones)

 

6 minutes ago, Roofi said:

I think especially that it is very difficult to make a sequel to an old wad because it came out in a certain context. Making a HR3 today makes no sense even in vanilla format as many wads have surpassed the once legendary difficulty of the Hell Revealed series.

Agreed, communtiy-made sequels are more like "what will happen if the mappers continue to make maps like these" Mapping styles can shift, and Scythe and Scythe II feel like two completely different wads. If Dario makes Plutonia 2 today after playing Valiant and Sunlust, nobody will know how the maps would turn out to be.

 

 

[Roofi]

10 minutes ago, Nefelibeta said:

To be honest I don't think Boom is popular at that point, since there aren't a lot of boom maps (at least popular ones)

 

Agreed, communtiy-made sequels are more like "what will happen if the mappers continue to make maps like these" Mapping styles can shift, and Scythe and Scythe II feel like two completely different wads. If Dario makes Plutonia 2 today after playing Valiant and Sunlust, nobody will know how the maps would turn out to be.

 

 

 

Yep I agree with you, Scythe 1 and 2 are extremly different, but they were created by the same author, so it has sense. On the other hand, if someone wanted to create a community project called Scythe 3 without Erik Alm's agreement, it would not follow the series.

 

For Plutonia 2, it might have been different if Dario had done it today, but the author is the same. 

 

I just don't like it when people make "sequels" just to artificially gain popularity. Create new wads or assume they are tributes. About Plutonia 2 , I don't consider as a sequel to the first Plutonia but rather as a tribute.

Edited July 31, 2022 by Roofi

[Azure_Horror]

I disagree with the idea that Scythe 1 and 2 are extremely different.

 

Episodes 1 and 2 of Scythe 2 have a good dose of short, non-excessive maps, which Scythe 1 is famous for.

And episodes 5 and 6 of Scythe 2 have a very recongnisable* borderline-sadistic Challenge of later Scythe 1 maps.

 

Episodes 3 and 4 merely provide a ladder between the two extremes.

 

*scythe 1-2 brand of extreme difficulty feels pretty distinct, at least to me. Ribbiks-made and Ribbiks-inspired maps feel pretty different, for example. Speed of Doom also feels different.

Edited July 31, 2022 by Azure_Horror

[Nefelibeta]

20 minutes ago, Azure_Horror said:

Unpopular opinion: Hell Revealed 1 and 2 have some cool moments that are abscent from modern WADs. Hell Revealed WADs should be studied, not left aside to gather dust.

I kind of want to see some examples. ;D

 

4 minutes ago, Azure_Horror said:

I disagree with the idea that Scythe 1 and 2 are extremely different.

It's not really about the general progression of the wad, since it makes sense to have challenging/sadist maps towards the end. It's more about the mapping style, Scythe II's maps are more mature, and feature a lot of solid and entertaining fights. Early maps are more punchy, later maps also have a lot of tight/challenging encounters.

 

It's also about a lot of things, like the layouts, map length, visual designs. I feel like Scythe II is a very successful sequel because it improves a lot of aspects of it.

[Arrowhead]

'METAL' is the single best border / support texture out there.

[Azure_Horror]

1 minute ago, Nefelibeta said:

I kind of want to see some examples. ;D

I am not the best at dissecting maps, and putting my experience into words.

But I'll try.

 

Example 1. Rocket Launcher room at HR 2 map 05 (the one with two archviles). Herding multiple archviles in an easy to undestand layout is fun. Sadly, the combination of shotgunners and hell knights sours the whole affair, and you can, of course just shotgun both archies to death. Boring, takes a lot of time, but can be done. What is really fun however, is herding the viles away from rocket boxes, grabbing the ammo and enacting some sweet revenge. A cool encounter can be done with this solution in mind.

 

Example 2. The tag 666 fight on map07 of HR 2. Lowering all supplies for mancubus wave leads to complete lack of cover for arachno wave. A minor combat puzzle of sorts. Even one survivng mancubus is annoying to keep around, but killing the last mancubus leads to instant phase transition, so if you want to gather supplies, you wanna keep that mancubus around. For bonus points, that last mancubus can infight something from outside the arena, and if he dies, the phase transition happens very unexpectedly. This map07 of HR 2 plays with pkase transition in a pretty unique way.

[Nefelibeta]

3 minutes ago, Azure_Horror said:

I am not the best at dissecting maps, and putting my experience into words.

But I'll try.

 

Example 1. Rocket Launcher room at HR 2 map 05 (the one with two archviles). Herding multiple archviles in an easy to undestand layout is fun. Sadly, the combination of shotgunners and hell knights sours the whole affair, and you can, of course just shotgun both archies to death. Boring, takes a lot of time, but can be done. What is really fun however, is herding the viles away from rocket boxes, grabbing the ammo and enacting some sweet revenge. A cool encounter can be done with this solution in mind.

 

Example 2. The tag 666 fight on map07 of HR 2. Lowering all supplies for mancubus wave leads to complete lack of cover for arachno wave. A minor combat puzzle of sorts. Even one survivng mancubus is annoying to keep around, but killing the last mancubus leads to instant phase transition, so if you want to gather supplies, you wanna keep that mancubus around. For bonus points, that last mancubus can infight something from outside the arena, and if he dies, the phase transition happens very unexpectedly. This map07 of HR 2 plays with pkase transition in a pretty unique way.

Indeed, those designs are quite ahead of its time, considering it was made when there's barely any pioneers in terms of elaborate combat designs. Unfortunatly its cons tend to make the maps a bit too unenjoyable though.

 

It's interesting to see how mappers back in the days started their own "brands", like how Death-Destiny's restrictive slaughtermaps inspired people like Paul977 and Ribbiks, and how old Sunder by Insane_Gazebo inspired like a whole bunch of slaughter mappers like bemused, Scotty and so on. (They even collaborated in a mapset too!)

[Azure_Horror]

1 minute ago, Nefelibeta said:

Indeed, those designs are quite ahead of its time, considering it was made when there's barely any pioneers in terms of elaborate combat designs. Unfortunatly its cons tend to make the maps a bit too unenjoyable though. 

 

It's interesting to see how mappers back in the days started their own "brands", like how Death-Destiny's restrictive slaughtermaps inspired people like Paul977 and Ribbiks, and how old Sunder by Insane_Gazebo inspired like a whole bunch of slaughter mappers like bemused, Scotty and so on. (They even collaborated in a mapset too!)

 

That's why I would love to see Hell Revaeled 1-2 being studied. To separate their pros from their cons.

There is a whole bunch of extremely cool concepts* in those WADs, but playing the maps can be a real pain, especially nowadays.

 

*I am not best at Doom history, so I don't know, what have already been re-implemented in a more modern mapset.

[xX_Lol6_Xx]

On 7/29/2022 at 12:22 AM, EPICALLL said:

TNT Evilution is the best IWAD.
Fight me.

Couldn't agree more 

[out_of_service]

On 7/28/2022 at 11:22 PM, EPICALLL said:

TNT Evilution is the best IWAD.
Fight me.

Love TNT Evilution! I always did prefer it over Plutonia.

[RonLivingston]

the entire pallet turns black and white when you grab the invulnerability, but why does the sky have to be black and white with it?

[whybmonotacrab]

I've only completed Doom 2 once. Every time I try to complete it again the city levels just bore me to tears and I stop. If it wasn't for all the amazing community content we have for it, I'd honestly rank it rather low to mid on the list of 90s shooters. 

[Shepardus]

4 hours ago, RonLivingston said:

the entire pallet turns black and white when you grab the invulnerability, but why does the sky have to be black and white with it?

It isn't, if you play with the vanilla executable or use a source port that hasn't changed that behavior.

[TheFocus]

the Plasma Gun is the best weapon

Revenants aren't as frustrating as you think

Running From Evil>At Doom's Gate

Doom 2016 doesn't even compare to Doom Eternal (Eternal gets way too much hate on it's own)

[QuaketallicA]

On 3/12/2022 at 12:59 PM, gwain said:

I think lost souls aren't too bad 

I've never found them to be a problem. The ones I hate are their equivalent in Duke Nukem 3D, those flying drones that love to explode in your face, and killing them just makes them explode anyway while also wasting your ammo. Those guys are always annoying, but luckily if there's a door around you can trick them into blowing up while you're behind the closed door.

[Codename_Delta]

I like Doom 3, and I don't mind it's shotgun.

 

And my least favourite Doom 3 weapon is the chaingun, idk it just feels too inaccurate to be feasible, I also dislike the rocket launcher because of it's devastating splash damage, which on it's own isn't bad but the cramped nature of Doom 3 really fucks the RL over.

 

I also love the Caverns levels. (And Chasm from Doom 2)