Unpopular Doom Opinions

[Jacek Bourne]

4 hours ago, Matt Mello said:

 

That could be alright, though I think a dual wield pistols works best as another weapon for the same slot as the pistol, sort of like the chainsaw and the super shotgun are for the fists and the regular shotgun.

What exactly do you like about the original pistol? Please be specific.

[Scypek2]

If nothing else, it only consumes one bullet. So unless you make it superior to the chaingun in some other way, the dual pistols are gonna get outclassed even worse than the regular pistol. If you're fine with that and just want more satisfying pistol starts, go ahead. Otherwise, you're better off with a rifle-like thing that's either more accurate, consumes less ammo, or both.

[Matt Mello]

5 hours ago, Jacek Bourne said:

What exactly do you like about the original pistol? Please be specific.

 

It's great for what it's meant for. It's a starter weapon that adds to the feeling of being against incredible odds at the start of the game. Plus the neat trick of it being 100% accurate every time if you pace your shots properly is nice. 

Like, starting off with a rifle/SMG or a shotgun feels too overpowering IMHO. Having the pistol as the starting weapon adds a certain flow and feel to the game that's hard to describe but it works in the game's favor. The pistol also works as a decent early game backup weapon in case you're low on shotgun ammo until you can get the Chaingun.

Honestly, I'd love to see if there are mods that keep the pistol but maybe add in a "Super Pistol" (like a magnum revolver) to find that does more damage but still keeps the 100% accuracy if you pace your shots properly.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Matt Mello

[ReaperAA]

54 minutes ago, Matt Mello said:

Plus the neat trick of it being 100% accurate every time if you pace your shots properly is nice.

 

This also applies for the chaingun. You can tap-fire the chaingun so that it's 100% accurate, which means that the chaingun pretty much outclasses the pistol in vanilla Doom. The only real advantage of the pistol is that it fires only 1 bullet, whereas the chaingun fires 2 bullets per click. Which isn't much, but can be useful if you have to shoot at many buttons (think Eviternity's Map12 secret).

 

With that said, I do think that if pistol (or whatever is the starting weapon) is made too powerful, it would end up eating chaingun's role as well, so chaingun also needs to be buffed in such case. Valiant does this well imho. In it, the pistol has faster rate of fire. But the chaingun is also faster with it's rate of fire, but you can't tap-fire well with it due to it's wind-up time. So the pistol and chaingun both have their uses in Valiant.

Edited February 23, 2023 by ReaperAA

[Jacek Bourne]

10 hours ago, Matt Mello said:

starting off with a rifle/SMG or a shotgun feels too overpowering IMHO.

What about starting the game with no weapons and no ammo and having slot 2 be a pickup that is more powerful while buffing the chain gun as well?

[Scypek2]

53 minutes ago, Jacek Bourne said:

What about starting the game with no weapons and no ammo and having slot 2 be a pickup that is more powerful while buffing the chain gun as well?

 

That's a fun one as well! In my newly completed Deadliest Dem(o(li)ti)on, I did it in a slightly different, vanilla-compatible way - you start with no ammo and a rocket launcher in slot 2. Then eventually, you also get the real slot 5 weapon... but I'm not gonna spoil it.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Scypek2

[Matt Mello]

2 hours ago, Jacek Bourne said:

What about starting the game with no weapons and no ammo and having slot 2 be a pickup that is more powerful while buffing the chain gun as well?

Meh, getting rid of the pistol completely just ruins it for me. Buffing up the pistol slightly is fine, but that's about as far as I'll go.

 

Though having the pistol be a pickup while not starting off with any weapon at first could also be good.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Matt Mello

[Jacek Bourne]

3 hours ago, Matt Mello said:

Meh, getting rid of the pistol completely just ruins it for me. Buffing up the pistol slightly is fine, but that's about as far as I'll go.

 

Though having the pistol be a pickup while not starting off with any weapon at first could also be good.

The slot 2 would be dual pistols.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Jacek Bourne

[Matt Mello]

8 hours ago, Jacek Bourne said:

The slot 2 would be dual pistols.

That would be alright

[Geniraul]

Shotgunning couple of barons can be fun.

[DoctorKlump]

i honestly think that the doom 2 story is too uninteresting

[Matt Mello]

I unironically like it when a WAD's map includes MIDI versions of pre-existing popular songs.

[baja blast rd.]

'Target prioritization' is a good beginner tool and a good method for wads that are of more conventional difficulty, but overfixating on it on wads that are more difficult will cause you to ask the wrong questions and sometimes run into bottlenecks of not being able to figure out what to do in an encounter. In wads around Speed of Doom / Resurgence difficulty and higher, it's a good idea to avoid leaning on it. 

 

 

 

I can list a zillion examples, but I have been watching some (good) playthroughs of Sunlust maps lately so I'll go over some examples here. This map22 fight has turned out surprisingly problematic for playthroughers (who get here without plasma rifle).

 

 

What do you prioritize here -- imps for more space? revenants because heavy-hitters? pain elementals because pain elementals?

 

None. It turns out the key is to maximize rocket splash. Whatever you do here, that will win tbh. The best way to do that is to carve a single lane into the horde and try to focus fire into it. (That is an unnatural thing to do because when firing RL you'll usually disperse rockets slightly and hit multiple targets, but here it's almost like you want to clear out just one group of imps and then fling rockets 'into' that hole.)

 

In fact even doing that 'okayly' wins pretty soundly (I'm not trying to do it well). 

In the clean-up phase, we still don't 'prioritize' pain elementals or lost souls or whatever else, because it's more important to keep an eye on the area's perimeter so that you can change directions when looping around if needed, while landing SSG shots on basically anything. (Also saying we're "prioritizing monsters on the perimeter" at this point would be tautological, like saying walking is "prioritizing moving your left foot and then your right foot.") Another useful meta concept is you have limited mental bandwidth, so focusing on the wrong thing can be counterproductive. 

 

 

 

map20's crypt fight is probably the most uncompromising fight in the wad. And...just about any target prioritization scheme fails to make sense. You can't kill the viles fast enough (starting out this fight trying to rocket them all down works badly). Grabbing the BFG at the beginning of the fight is also pure RNG whether it works -- and will usually fail -- so a no-go. Killing barons? cyb? Not practical. 

 

This skeleton of the approach is realizing that if you make the cyb and barons infight or just figure out how to get the cyb out of the way, you can deal with the viles by yourself more patiently. It also helps to know that weak viles are dead viles, so you don't have to kill all of them to have reduced the encounter to a win condition. So that leads to a non-intuitive herding maneuver where you pull the cyb to the right side and juke around him (this is really consistent), which is the actual important part, and then go over to the left side to deal with the archies.

 

That's the skeleton, but we also want to put 'dead time' to good use, so we mix in a couple rockets against the viles at the start. 

 

The fight requires a smart infight and herding approach and makes simple target prioritization useless and also has a red herring troll BFG. Imo it's Sunlust's meanest fight for that reason. :P

 

Here's a fun "reality" of that fight (I was really nervous when I realized I took no damage).

 

 

 

Here's a bonus, in a set that has more conventional difficulty. 

 

 

This is a clusterfuck with lots of monster species, but apart from targeting archviles, because those are too overbearing, I would avoid target prioritization. One issue is that apart from those archviles, nothing really makes a huge difference here, even the PEs and AD heads are a distant 2nd/3rd and what actually helps is staying attentive for potentially dangerous moments + unloading dps at stuff in general. So by caring too much about target prioritization you'd be spending a lot of mental energy for little gain. Better free that up to anticipate some crisis better. (Someone might point out this is "good reactions privilege" or something, but the reason I, or anyone, can have good reaction times here in the first place is I'm not fixating on info processing that doesn't apply, which frees up mental space for other little reads here and there.)

Another familiar idea I would avoid in this spot is "trying to shoot the number of shots required to kill monsters." A good baseline approach here is to shoot at stuff indiscriminately while moving around and paying attention to where you can go safely. The reason for not firing the exact # of shots is that monsters in situations like this are likely to have infought and have less than their full HP, so when you shoot 1-2 rockets at a manc, that will often be enough -- and if it's not, say, "I meant to do that," and finish it off a bit later. A lot of inefficient cleanup is caused by target fixation, where you unload at one single monster that becomes your main focus and it becomes inconvenient at some point (like a caco drifting off), or it dies to fewer shots than you used meaning you overkilled. So if you have a scattered assortment of monsters around you in such cases, practicing spamming 1-2 rockets each at different targets is not only more efficient but also looks cooler. :P (This does take practice to do, but it's worth it lol.)

[Nirvana]

I always enjoy analyses of Doom encounters so this was a fun read. I think that monster prioritisation is one of those things that's a good 'building block' for tackling fights, but a lot of the time mappers who are decent at the game will try to deliberately mess with it. I often make fights where you're supposed to leave cyberdemons alive for infighting but then I'll throw you one where they're randomly the priority target to kill even if they don't appear to be. Other times, like in your SL22 example, space is simply the priority, and how you earn that space is up to you. I personally think mappers should also steer away from strictly designing fights around monster priority too, because it can become a bit of a Doom by numbers approach to combat sometimes.

 

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Nirvana

[jmac]

The Pit is the best commercial doom map.

 

It's difficult to explain exactly why I feel this way. Even from my childhood days, the bizarre progression and nonlinear level design made the map stand out to me as more memorable and interesting than the others. I've never found it frustrating to play at any point.

[Sonikkumania]

16 hours ago, jmac said:

The Pit is the best commercial doom map.

 

It's difficult to explain exactly why I feel this way. Even from my childhood days, the bizarre progression and nonlinear level design made the map stand out to me as more memorable and interesting than the others. I've never found it frustrating to play at any point.

Back when I was a kid I always felt The Pit was a kinda creepy map. 

 

Anyway, I don't think the Icon of Sin is a bad final boss. 

[MoiraHeart]

On 3/2/2023 at 11:26 PM, Matt Mello said:

I unironically like it when a WAD's map includes MIDI versions of pre-existing popular songs.

Wait, that's unpopular? I absolutely adore when I recognize the midi, it connects me with the author of the map instantly even if I end up not liking the gameplay. Besides, the original Doom sountrack is pretty much a mixtape of Id's favorite songs.

[Anarkzie]

On 2/22/2023 at 10:57 PM, Jacek Bourne said:

What exactly do you like about the original pistol? Please be specific.

 

I know this question was not directed at me but pistol combat against Zombiemen is quite good, if done right. That said few mappers really pull this off and usually make the mistake of mixing imps in with Zombies, becoming defacto Hell Knights. 

 

It's pretty much useless in every other circumstance.

[Roofi]

A small and perhaps unpopular opinion occurred to me today while playing a Ultimate Doom wad:

 

I think the blursphere is not only not a bad item but mostly proves to be quite useful , even on Ultra Violence, knowing that most Ultimate Doom monsters are hitscanners and imps inflict little damage. 

 

However, I feel that the unpopularity of this item lies in the fact that Doom 2's enemies are much more powerful and that this item was not designed with this bestiary in mind. Imps with unpredictable trajectories aren't much of a big deal, whereas mancubus or arachnotron projectiles are, for example.

 

[IncompA]

I unironically enjoy The Chasm. There are plenty of worse maps in DOOM II alone.

[F ⓔEURWAFFE ⓔ]

On 7/18/2020 at 5:36 PM, DuckReconMajor said:

Revenants are great. 
Arachnotrons are horrible. 

Arachnatrons are cute little babies

Revenants are homing missile hellspawn that can eat my BFG tracers

[F ⓔEURWAFFE ⓔ]

On 3/15/2023 at 2:25 AM, jmac said:

The Pit is the best commercial doom map.

 

It's difficult to explain exactly why I feel this way. Even from my childhood days, the bizarre progression and nonlinear level design made the map stand out to me as more memorable and interesting than the others. I've never found it frustrating to play at any point.

hated The Pit on my first playthrough, if i was to pick the best map from Doom2 or any commercial Doom game in my opinion id say its refueling base, its the perfect introduction to the cyberdemon, i couldnt tell you the fear that hit me when i first heard its footsteps after opening the yellow door 

[F ⓔEURWAFFE ⓔ]

On 2/23/2023 at 4:32 AM, Matt Mello said:

 

It's great for what it's meant for. It's a starter weapon that adds to the feeling of being against incredible odds at the start of the game. Plus the neat trick of it being 100% accurate every time if you pace your shots properly is nice. 

Like, starting off with a rifle/SMG or a shotgun feels too overpowering IMHO. Having the pistol as the starting weapon adds a certain flow and feel to the game that's hard to describe but it works in the game's favor. The pistol also works as a decent early game backup weapon in case you're low on shotgun ammo until you can get the Chaingun.

Honestly, I'd love to see if there are mods that keep the pistol but maybe add in a "Super Pistol" (like a magnum revolver) to find that does more damage but still keeps the 100% accuracy if you pace your shots properly.

i felt that when i played brutal doom and started with the rifle and i was just mowing through the first couple of levels, Im making a wad and i wanna give the player a starter pistol that fires plasma but lower damage and a slower firerate but the plasma bolts move quicker, i feel like it gives it good balance, if i dont ill just keep the OG pistol, it serves its purpose as a starter gun great imo 

[deleted-account]

I've always like Map 10: "The Mansion" from Memento Mori even though it seems like most people in the community (seem to) regard it as amateurish dribble.

Sure it's a bit rough on the edges (being a bit sparse on details and lots of open space), but IMO helps make it memorable as a map I can instantly visualize in my mind.

[F ⓔEURWAFFE ⓔ]

On 3/16/2023 at 12:39 PM, MoiraHeart said:

Wait, that's unpopular? I absolutely adore when I recognize the midi, it connects me with the author of the map instantly even if I end up not liking the gameplay. Besides, the original Doom sountrack is pretty much a mixtape of Id's favorite songs.

the secret level of my current DM Wad is the set of Virtual Insanitys music video by Jamiroquai with the MIDI of it aswel its really fun and just feels cool to run around, adds a bit of flair to the Wad ykyk

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

I actually like the massive rng damage spread. It gives everything a certain layer of mystique. 

When I play a game with no damage rng, it feels very "gamey" if that makes sense. Very mechanical. And it kinda sucks the fun out of the game for me. If I know that four rockets kill a monster no matter what, it stops being a monster and becomes an obstacle that takes four rockets to remove. 

I want to be surprised, even when I know what's happening. Let me get destroyed by a single rev ball, and then get hit with three and be just fine. It's unpredictable, it's fun. It makes the monsters feel alive. 

[IncompA]

2 minutes ago, Sneezy McGlassFace said:

I actually like the massive rng damage spread. It gives everything a certain layer of mystique. 

When I play a game with no damage rng, it feels very "gamey" if that makes sense. Very mechanical. And it kinda sucks the fun out of the game for me. If I know that four rockets kill a monster no matter what, it stops being a monster and becomes an obstacle that takes four rockets to remove. 

I want to be surprised, even when I know what's happening. Let me get destroyed by a single rev ball, and then get hit with three and be just fine. It's unpredictable, it's fun. It makes the monsters feel alive. 

That's an unpopular opinion? I've always liked that about the classic games.

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

2 minutes ago, EliDoesStuff said:

That's an unpopular opinion? I've always liked that about the classic games.

I don't know, whenever I see a thread about things people would change/fix, this often comes up as a problem. And afaik supercharge and probably other mods too remove the rng damage entirely. 

[Azure_Horror]

Re: damage RNG.

 

Doom RNG is a bit too extreme, IMO. 8-64, or 10-80 damage spreads feel too luck-based. Sometimes, you get lucky, sometimes not, but both max and min damage rolls feel kinda unfair, each in its own way. For super-powerful attacks, such large RNG feels outright stupid.

 

Archvile zaps have no RNG at all! - and this feels very nice. Archviles are already very annoying with their erratic movements and all the unique mechanics. So than you "lose" to archvile zap, it feels very fair to know exactly what it costs you.

 

By contrast, cyberdemon rockets have normal extreme RNG on a direct hit and can inflict enough damage to one-shot you through 200 hp! Very annoying, when it happens. Same thing applies to fat 64-times-2-or-more Mancubus fireball hits, or to infamous 80-damage homing rev missiles. For those dangerous projectiles, the spread feels too extreme.

 

That said, for smaller shots RNG does feel rather fair. You win some, you lose some, but one or two RNG rolls very rarely decide a life-or-death situation. An when it does - usually you made enough mistakes to be at the mercy of RNG.

[Scypek2]

I'd like to see a mod that entirely removes damage RNG, but instead introduces item RNG. With every medikit randomly giving you between 10 and 40 health, every rocket box having between 2 and 8 rockets, and so on. You'll know how much damage you'll take, and maybe you'll also avoid obsessively micro-managing items and avoiding picking up a medikit just because you have 76% health and you don't want to waste it.