Unpopular Doom Opinions

[Azure_Horror]

3 hours ago, Roofi said:

Yes, I played ton of 90's wads and just having multiple levels in the same wad and a custom soundtrack is quite a feat for a 1997 wad.

 

I think people would prefer playing HR than an endless serie of single maps showing no personnality with D_runnin playing in the background.

 

One thing is unusual about Hell Revealed: it is not a particularly fun WAD to play, but it is a surprisingly cool WAD to re-play.

 

The maps are frustrating, but they also have lots of miniature quirks. If one decides to dive deeply into HR - there is a very fun exploit-hunt hidden beneath the surface. "How many monsters/obstacles can be avoided/infighted/etc. to reach the most powerful resources within as little time as possible" is a very fun question to ponder - and HR does not provide any obvious answers in many of its maps*.

 

Naturally, such playstyle requires re-playing maps over and over. Why one would ever replay Hell Revealed many times? Well, there are at least two reasons:

- If one is a speedrunner, then replaying same map multiple times is par the course.

- If there is not many other WADs to play, then one needs either to replay something, or leave the hobby entirely.

Both those things can easily explain, why Hell Revealed become so famous, despite numerous rough edges.

 

 

*One thing stands out about Hell Reveled even today:

Many modernist maps are very well choreographed. On one hand, this tends to make those maps very fun and memorable. On the other hand, the exploit-hunt part of the game is much less prominent in modern maps. That said, some modern maps manage to duplicate the highlights of Hell Revealed experience, while avoiding almost all the jank:

 

- Map 24 (made by @Roofi, BTW!) of 180 Minutes pour Vivre is a perfect "modernist Hell Revealed map" - there is very little time wasted on shotgunning midtiers, but lots of time spent pondering on some non-obvious routing decisions (like leaving 2 archviles roaming behind your back! This is a surprisingly reliable strategy, if one decides to go for the blue key first. Fighting archviles from inside of the mancubi gatehouse is much safer than engaging them in starting courtyard. And this way also provides much more shells to SSG the viles with...)

 

- 1000 lines 3 map 29 (by @Bridgeburner56) is another modern map, which incorporates some elements from HR playbook. It is a modern slaughter map for the most part. But it also has very non-linear floor-plan and it also has blurry lines between incidental combat and the dedicated arenas. Once again, many routes are possible to complete the map, and some of them are less obvious then others.

[bofu]

I don't like the grey recolors of the metal part of the WOODMET1 texture that are used in so many wads. I prefer the brown, rusty color of the original metal.

 

CL21 is the best complevel and more maps should target it (or at least be run with it) even if they aren't using MBF21 features. All the benefits (monsters not getting stuck on ledges or door frames, access to MBF DEHACKED codepointers, etc) without the drawbacks of the other complevels past 9 (weird monster infighting, shooting an Archvile on a pillar into the bottomless pit below and not being able to get 100% kills as a result).

[rita remton]

wish there was a standard mathematical way (albeit flawed) to measure the difficulty of a map, instead of using other well-known maps as basis of comparison (eg. uv-max in sunder / sunlust / etc). for example:

 

standard map difficulty scale = (total monster health x 1000000) / (total ammo damage points x total health pickup points x total armour x amount of invuls x traversable map area in map units)

 

fictional example:

standard difficulty ratio for...

sunder=150.

sublust=120.

doom2 vanilla = 5.

 

yes, the calculated difficulty has it flaws since it does not take into account the terrain for covers and movement, quirks in the map to be exploited by speedrunning, etc. but at least it gives a standard reference/estimatation for newbie players who has never even played sunder / sunlust / etc.

 

i'm aware that map editors do not provide the stats required to calculate the map difficulty in the first place. there are wad analysis tools such as [dmon], [dmmpst (doom map statistics)], [wadspy] that may help. then there are the major obstacles of acceptance of such difficulty metric by the doom community, and adoption of such measurement by map editors or even source ports.

 

- random ramblings before bedtime :P

 

[yum13241]

You're deflating numbers like Celsius did. Multiply the final result by 10, then you'll get a decent number.

[Andromeda]

20 hours ago, rita remton said:

wish there was a standard mathematical way (albeit flawed) to measure the difficulty of a map, instead of using other well-known maps as basis of comparison (eg. uv-max in sunder / sunlust / etc). for example:

 

standard map difficulty scale = (total monster health x 1000000) / (total ammo damage points x total health pickup points x total armour x amount of invuls x traversable map area in map units)

 

fictional example:

standard difficulty ratio for...

sunder=150.

sublust=120.

doom2 vanilla = 5.

 

yes, the calculated difficulty has it flaws since it does not take into account the terrain for covers and movement, quirks in the map to be exploited by speedrunning, etc. but at least it gives a standard reference/estimatation for newbie players who has never even played sunder / sunlust / etc.

 

i'm aware that map editors do not provide the stats required to calculate the map difficulty in the first place. there are wad analysis tools such as [dmon], [dmmpst (doom map statistics)], [wadspy] that may help. then there are the major obstacles of acceptance of such difficulty metric by the doom community, and adoption of such measurement by map editors or even source ports.

 

- random ramblings before bedtime :P

Yeah, that's something I think would be cool to have but it's (almost) impossible to get a meaningful result when applied to the plethora of levels out there. The archaic way of calculating a level's difficulty, referenced in some Doom Wiki pages and used in WadWhat/WadSpy/this Doom Builder plugin, goes like this:

Difficulty ratio = Total monster HP / (Total amount of bullets * 10 + Total amount of shells * 70 + Total amount of rockets * 200 + Total amount of cells * 20)

The formula is based (roughly) on the average damage of each shot from the pistol/chaingun (10), shotgun (70), rocket launcher (200, counting blast damage) and the plasma gun (20). The difficulty ratio ranges from 0 (no monsters) to 1 (you have exactly the amount of ammo needed to kill every monster without missing shots) on most levels. A ratio above 1 naturally means you need to utilise infighting/crushers and the fist/chainsaw alongside your ammo to be able to kill all the monsters.

 

Naturally, it has several points of failure:

• Doesn't consider the higher ammo efficiency of the super shotgun and the BFG.
• Doesn't consider crushers/telefrags.
• Doesn't exclude monsters/ammo outside the level boundaries, which skews the results.
• Doesn't exclude ammo placed without a weapon to use it.
• Probably some more obvious points that I can't seem to remember right now :P

Most important thing is, it's not an accurate measure of difficulty. A really easy level but with little ammo is going to have a much higher ratio than a really difficult "BFG spam" level where you're showered in cells, for instance. It's a fun number to have, but not particularly useful.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Andromeda

[Alaxzandarz]

Platforming maps would also absolutely annihilate any sort of formula like this.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Alaxzandarz

[Scypek2]

2 hours ago, Andromeda said:

• Probably some more obvious points that I can't seem to remember right now :P

 

Taking physical dimensions of the level into account would probably be the one thing that would improve it the most. More monsters in a room usually means more difficulty, even if ammo increases proportionally.

[Lucius Wooding]

The concept of challenge in a map as an objective trait is too complex to boil down to something like a single number. You can't even define what makes a map challenging very well without taking a lot of factors into account. At best you can isolate a few factors like monster count and ammo but things like monster placement and room design are very complex and you also would be making assumptions on player skill and savvy to proceed. The skill level and execution of good players is crazy and has so many aspects in its own right that it's an equally difficult problem to define that well enough to perform meaningful math on it. You'd have to build a bot that can simulate actual runs and report on various problems it encounters, with each type being its own rabbit hole of complexity. Here are a few offhand things you'd have to account for that'd be a complex problem on their own:

 

-One issue you could solve would be a pathfinding algorithm to ensure the map is beatable and navigable. This would still be a fair amount of work however, and this is probably the easiest problem to solve. You'd have to take platforming into account and probably hurtfloors and crushers as well. A lot of programmers would struggle just with this on its own. It'd also probably have to run with no monsters and ignore impassable enemies that you may not be able to kill, which would block you getting to the exit.

 

-I could give the player a BFG with no extra cells, then place 2 billion spectres stuck in one another in a phone booth as well as a bunch of barrels on top of them. This would then be a difficulty rating of a billion or something even though it would either kill everything in one shot or more likely just crash, with no chance for a competent player being in danger. 

 

-I could place 2 billion megaspheres in an inaccessible room or only at the end with none distributed throughout the map. This would be exceedingly generous with health and therefore easy.

 

-I could place heaps of enemies in a room with no space to move except to infight or be crushed, and no chance of damaging the player. This would be an unfairly cramped and ammo starved room with lots of monsters and therefore very hardcore.

 

-I could place softlocks in the map and the difficulty wouldn't change, and they wouldn't be pointed out to you unless you worked hard on something to detect them. In fact the map wouldn't have to be beatable to get a rating.

 

-You could make maps with crazy bugs that break the blockmap and cause all logic to be inapplicable to your model of how the game works. 

 

-Tricks and Traps would bugger this metric completely by its nature.

 

 

...Or you could have a couple people playtest your map and get feedback in 5 minutes without having to train them. It's remarkable how much more efficient that would be.

 

Personally I don't like difficulty as a single number and I don't really like ratings out of 5 stars for quality either. I'd rather just have people make tags to be a bit more descriptive of the map, like many image boards use for filtering searches. Instead of "This map gets a B with a B+ for difficulty", a map might have a list of traits like "Moderately difficult", "High monster count", "Cramped fights", "Plentiful ammo", "Need to know how to dodge revenant missiles", "Long maps", "Need to know how to fight archviles", "Required platforming", etc. This is by no means exhaustive but you'd have to rely on people tagging the maps/wads manually at the end of the day. But the truth is that this system would be far more practical and less labor intensive than the alternative. The community would just have to agree on definitions for each tag, or at least give each tag a % of reviewers who agree with same so you'd see whether it was a firm consensus. Still not perfect, but IMO a much better system to shoot for if people want to find suitable WADs from a database. Even the Steam store has these kinds of tags relating to genre and content, and they don't really spoil the games but do provide valuable insight.

 

[rita remton]

On 5/19/2023 at 6:15 PM, Andromeda said:

Most important thing is, it's not an accurate measure of difficulty. A really easy level but with little ammo is going to have a much higher ratio than a really difficult "BFG spam" level where you're showered in cells, for instance. It's a fun number to have, but not particularly useful.

i agree it is not an accurate measure of difficulty, and even mentioned earlier such a mathematical method would be flawed. however, would such method speedily and automatically solve about say 80% of all the wads out there to determine the difficulty of a map? just throwing ideas here.

 

during the weekend, i read about some people used bananas, washing machines, etc to measure something (eg. a sinkhole appeared in the ground with a width of 5 washing machines). since some newbie players never even played sunder or sunlust etc, perhaps a common basis comparison could be used like this map is [2.5x doom2 uv difficulty]? again, just ideas.

 

anyway, thanks for your awesome input. full of info :)

 

On 5/19/2023 at 10:09 PM, Lucius Wooding said:

"This map gets a B with a B+ for difficulty"

actually, how do other professional sites determine the difficulty rating for a map or even a game? by playtesters? voting by players? or [ai] even? i like your point about maps or even games being more descriptive. that's a great idea! :)

Edited May 22, 2023 by rita remton
added reply to [lucious wooding]

[DiR]

While I have nothing against the current colours of the green and blue armour sets, it always bugged me a little bit how the green armour was called the "security" armour and the blue armour was called the "combat" armour in the manuals, despite green being more of a military colour and blue being more of a security colour. Not saying the colours should be swapped or anything, just that the names still throw me off from time to time. Maybe it's just me.

Edited May 27, 2023 by DiR
Typo (accidentally had a capital "O" Of Destruction in "Not")

[DeafPixel]

TNT Evilution has the best soundtrack of any IWAD

[Crazy_Deer]

On 5/26/2023 at 1:01 AM, DiR said:

While I have nothing against the current colours of the green and blue armour sets, it always bugged me a little bit how the green armour was called the "security" armour and the blue armour was called the "combat" armour in the manuals, despite green being more of a military colour and blue being more of a security colour. Not saying the colours should be swapped or anything, just that the names still throw me off from time to time. Maybe it's just me.

Maybe by the time the game takes place, the military turned to blue colours?

[Ozcar]

I wish there people still making vanilla doom tc instead gzdoom tc.

Edited May 28, 2023 by Ozcar

[Jack9955]

Nuts.wad doesn't have enough monsters.

[DeafPixel]

1 hour ago, Jack9955 said:

Nuts.wad doesn't have enough monsters.

this is why you should play profaned promisland. 40000 monsters, cant complain about that number

[Dreamskull]

I note that linearity plays into things more often than not due to bottlenecks and chokepoints. Without options for movement and escape, that ramps up difficulty. Have you ever played something decently easy only for it to just crush you in a specific area due to its geometry? Thats what you look for when making the judgement calls on difficulty - locations that lessen the capability of the player to fight, which by the way, isnt entirely bad. I just note that its not taken into account here. Even if you provided no ammo for the player, its easy if theres space to evade whats there. I dont know what to tell you.

 

Monster count does not automatically increase difficulty. If you want to create an equation for difficulty, why leave out spatial orientation/stuck?

 

As for my unpopular opinion, there are too many easy maps because the idea people making levels havent actually been playing the game. I can tell some arent good at the game and are just making levels to hide away. On the opposite end, there is an over-reliance on bfgs and powerups in hard maps to compensate for an inability to actually fight things. Its a reduction on the mechanical flow and a grandstand on sheer number blown away more easily.

Edited May 28, 2023 by Dreamskull

[Chao-G]

Haven't gone through the whole thread so I don't know if this has already been stated, and I don't even know if it's an "unpopular opinion" as such:

 

Doom being a "power fantasy" is really a feature of the newer games where you are just ripping and tearing through everything in your path. This narrative has led to older players misremembering the kind of strategizing and resource management the original set of games had you do, and giving newer players a false impression of how Doom played like. I just saw a Youtube comment saying "in Doom II, you could just run head first into a mob of enemies without care for your well being", which I think is only true for the easiest of difficulty settings. While I love the new Doom games (Eternal just threw in all the features I ever wanted in an arena shooter into a single player package that had me soyjak-faced while watching the gameplay trailer) I think the "power fantasy" element is quite new. Sure, maybe the old Doom game is still a power fantasy in the sense that you're taking on the army of hell by yourself and getting hit by a fireball or missile just causes a number to go down rather than outright killing us.

[RataUnderground]

33 minutes ago, Chao-G said:

Haven't gone through the whole thread so I don't know if this has already been stated, and I don't even know if it's an "unpopular opinion" as such:

 

Doom being a "power fantasy" is really a feature of the newer games where you are just ripping and tearing through everything in your path. This narrative has led to older players misremembering the kind of strategizing and resource management the original set of games had you do, and giving newer players a false impression of how Doom played like. I just saw a Youtube comment saying "in Doom II, you could just run head first into a mob of enemies without care for your well being", which I think is only true for the easiest of difficulty settings. While I love the new Doom games (Eternal just threw in all the features I ever wanted in an arena shooter into a single player package that had me soyjak-faced while watching the gameplay trailer) I think the "power fantasy" element is quite new. Sure, maybe the old Doom game is still a power fantasy in the sense that you're taking on the army of hell by yourself and getting hit by a fireball or missile just causes a number to go down rather than outright killing us.

 

 This.

Yeah, you have power, but you are more Ash of evil dead than a killing demons demigod.

A regular guy with a shotgun having a very bad day. 

[Jacek Bourne]

12 hours ago, Dreamskull said:

On the opposite end, there is an over-reliance on bfgs and powerups in hard maps to compensate for an inability to actually fight things.

 

What maps or mapsets are you referring to here?

[treulosetomate]

10 hours ago, Chao-G said:

Haven't gone through the whole thread so I don't know if this has already been stated, and I don't even know if it's an "unpopular opinion" as such:

 

Doom being a "power fantasy" is really a feature of the newer games where you are just ripping and tearing through everything in your path. This narrative has led to older players misremembering the kind of strategizing and resource management the original set of games had you do, and giving newer players a false impression of how Doom played like. I just saw a Youtube comment saying "in Doom II, you could just run head first into a mob of enemies without care for your well being", which I think is only true for the easiest of difficulty settings. While I love the new Doom games (Eternal just threw in all the features I ever wanted in an arena shooter into a single player package that had me soyjak-faced while watching the gameplay trailer) I think the "power fantasy" element is quite new. Sure, maybe the old Doom game is still a power fantasy in the sense that you're taking on the army of hell by yourself and getting hit by a fireball or missile just causes a number to go down rather than outright killing us.

 

How difficult does a game have to be that it stops being a power fantasy?

[Dreamskull]

I think thats moreso a lens than a statement of fact. We fight bigger and badder on the original Doom IWads than on Doom Eternal. They do a good job selling the narrative there though. Have you tried Doom Eternal Famine Mode? Thats a better experience than the base Doom Eternal game.

Edited May 28, 2023 by Dreamskull

[Lucius Wooding]

Enemies in those games are just piñatas full of goodies. It's a bit like RE4 in that sense. Hard to be scared of anything when you get rewarded by everything you kill. In OG Doom you get rewarded by exploring and the only drops are ammo from hitscan (which makes complete sense).

[Dreamskull]

2 hours ago, Jacek Bourne said:

 

What maps or mapsets are you referring to here?

Theres plenty of maps in the slaughter genre that overload everything. So much so they start believing theres finesse to be had on invincibility sphere and near unlimited BFG cells. Why do I have to insult people directly in a thread about unpopular opinions? They know exactly who they are.

 

That genre is allowed to exist you know, but Im not giving them points for claiming to have increased difficulty. Im a simple man who likes simple weapons without powerups. A more refined slaughter where the itemization is 12345 with everything in-between scarce is my cup of tea, but the community has other opinions about it, hence the reason Im posting the unpopular opinion. I think the entire thing is too touristy and fickle, but Im still a huge fan.

 

I like big invasion maps, what can I really tell you? Im not them and they arent me.

 

I talk to a number of people about it in discord, but thats just shooting the breeze. What Id actually like to do is be able to make what I want in a decent enough time, but Im the slowest of the slow when it comes to making maps.

Edited May 28, 2023 by Dreamskull

[Chao-G]

1 hour ago, treulosetomate said:

 

How difficult does a game have to be that it stops being a power fantasy?

 

It's less about the difficulty and more about the design of the game itself. It becomes a power fantasy when you know you always have a way forward - you can get all your resources by being aggressive, without thinking of conserving a medikit pickup for later or prioritizing hitscanners in a room of enemies (mostly because hitscanners don't exist in new Doom games). While playing Doom and some of the harder WADs, there are often moments when I barely get out of a situation alive and finish a level with like 10% HP left. It feels like a different kind of triumph, feeling like you barely got out alive but you still made it, unlike how it feels to mow down a horde of demons when your character is supposed to be a demon-killing machine.

[SkeletSpook]

Didn't know where else to put this so here goes. 

I never really liked the 2016 Praetor suit. With the big helmet and big boots the proportions feel off. I finally realised what it reminds me off: Ned Flanders skintight skiing suit.

 

Stupid sexy Doomguy

[zokum]

Judging by the falls Doomguy survives and his run speed, I'd say there is a hefty element of power fantasy in this game. The guy can run effortlessly over lava and bubbling nuclear waste. His capacity to carry ammo and weaponry is also more or less god like. 100 rockets? A ton of weapons including a BFG, rocket launcher, chaingun (gatling) and even a chain saw - no problem. The way the berserk pack boosts his muscle power so much that he can literally beat monsters into giblets.

The original Doom game is in many ways a clear power fantasy, but not the same one as in Eternal and 2016.

[Trustanus]

Quake has better infighting situations than Doom.

[Chao-G]

On 6/6/2023 at 4:49 AM, zokum said:

Judging by the falls Doomguy survives and his run speed, I'd say there is a hefty element of power fantasy in this game. The guy can run effortlessly over lava and bubbling nuclear waste. His capacity to carry ammo and weaponry is also more or less god like. 100 rockets? A ton of weapons including a BFG, rocket launcher, chaingun (gatling) and even a chain saw - no problem. The way the berserk pack boosts his muscle power so much that he can literally beat monsters into giblets.

The original Doom game is in many ways a clear power fantasy, but not the same one as in Eternal and 2016.

 

I agree, but the power fantasy element was just a consequence of "it's a video game and hence unrealistic", rather than crafting detailed lore around *why* Doomguy is the way he is. Latter of which happened over a span of years since the original release, as people got understandably heavily invested in the game and its world.

[Async Unicorn]

In my opinion, Drake O'Brien levels in TNT Evilution are good and very atmospheric, despite their length and sometimes confusing layout, and don't deserve that much hate. For me, it's very sad that he didn't do anything outside of Evilution. I would certainly play his single-player wads if they existed.
Jeez, Central Processing will always be in my heart just for the Tom Mustaine music, and when I listen to that music separately or in someone's project, my heart just blows; it's just so sinister and dark, so doomy...
 

Edited June 9, 2023 by Vanilla+Unicorn

[Shakariki Heisenberg]

doom1/ultimate doom is MID also tnt is mid too

edit: aight so ive changed my mind about tnt tnt is pretty fckn good

Edited June 17, 2023 by Shakariki Heisenberg