Thoughts on the Fallout Games?

[Sonikkumania]

17 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

However, I must say that I am not okay with Fallout 2 giving you the ability to become a slaver and take part in slave raids: thankfully, it is entirely optional, but why oh why would you put that in a video game? Killing, lying and stealing can be morally justified, but rape, torture and slavery? That is a big no-no to me, even in a video game...

I put some info regarding Slavers here in spoiler tags you can check out if you don't mind getting spoilers:

Spoiler

In New California Republic, you can join NCR Rangers who hunt down Slavers too.

 

[rzh]

1 hour ago, Rudolph said:

Wait, you can literally kick doors open in Fallout 2? :o

Yeah, kick them, bash them with a hammer, but it doesn't work for all doors/

[Wyrmwood]

1 hour ago, dasho said:

 

You're playing a game about a post-nuclear, post-"civilization" wasteland. People might be doing bad no-nos in such a situation.

 

Gotta say on my evil playthrough of Fallout 3 I ended ended up in a fight with a bunch of feral children and after I'd killed them all I...er....ate them to restore my health. I like that Fallout let you be the bad guy if you want. Even playing evil is would find rape distasteful though, don't mind playing a comic book style villain but there is a line. I really don't remember anything like that in Fallout 2, but I've only played that once, years ago and probably missed half the content then, a good CRPG always requires multiple playthroughs.

[Sonikkumania]

I don't think you can rape anyone in Fallout.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

This thread has been nothing more than Rudolph's Fallout Diary for the last 7 pages.

 

No, you cannot rape people in Fallout.

[Sonikkumania]

Imagine a mod for Fallout 1:

Spoiler

Takes place after the FO1 bad ending. You're now the Mutated Vault Dweller, serving as a officer after the Master's army is complete. You can help him succeed in creating the Unity, or you can reconsider your choices and betray him.

Also a bad ending for Fallout 2:

Spoiler

You decide to join the Enclave.

 

[Rudolph]

I do not mind there being rape, torture and slavery in Fallout, but I do not think it should let you partake in them, especially considering the series' tone. To do so would risk normalizing those unjustifiable things and attracting an unsavory audience looking for ways to advocate them under the veil of irony.

 

In fact, I remember that being a major issue with the Fallout: The Frontier mod, so much so that it forced the team to take it down.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Rudolph

[Wyrmwood]

50 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

I do not mind there being rape, torture and slavery in Fallout, but I do not think it should let you partake in them, especially considering the series' tone. To do so would risk normalizing those unjustifiable things and attracting an unsavory audience looking for ways to advocate them under the veil of irony.

 

In fact, I remember that being a major issue with the Fallout: The Frontier mod, so much so that it forced the team to take it down.

 

I'm beginning to wonder what patch you installed, I don't think you can do any of these things. Nobody can really control what modders add though, just be careful what you install.

 

On the issue of slavery though, sandbox game Kenshi does let become a slaver, you wander round the desert looking for victim npc's, lock them in cages and then sell them. I don't find anything overly distasteful about that within the context of that game, video games in general let us to a lot of awful things we don't condone or feel like acting on, look at GTA.

 

Rape and torture on the other hand are things that are acceptable within an adult storyline as story elements, though I would rather they were mentioned and not graphically depicted. Anyone who would actually play a game where you could act on these is probably sick but there are some fucking weird games on Steam these days. Fallout 2 is not one of them.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Wyrmwood

[dasho]

55 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

 To do so would risk normalizing those unjustifiable things and attracting an unsavory audience looking for ways to advocate them under the veil of irony.

 

Ah yes, the well known advocates and Rape and Torture Rights marches that I see all the time. I suppose Doom really did cause school shootings as well?

Edited October 26, 2022 by dasho

[StodgyAyatollah]

1 hour ago, Rudolph said:

I do not mind there being rape, torture and slavery in Fallout, but I do not think it should let you partake in them, especially considering the series' tone. To do so would risk normalizing those unjustifiable things and attracting an unsavory audience looking for ways to advocate them under the veil of irony.

I recall Tim Cain, the creator of the franchise talking about an argument he had with the higher ups at interplay regarding the ability to murder children in the first game. They wanted it removed but he was adamant for it's inclusion, not because the player should do it but because the setting required the moral ambiguity to allow them to and for them to face the consequences of their action. This is why killing children will tag you as a child-killer and people will treat you as such. In FO2 if you join the slavers you get a big brand on your forehead for everyone to see in a similar way. It was also a very common thing in post-apoc movies of the era, which they drew from. I personally think games generally don't add enough truly evil options, just generic villain bs which makes the good options feel less impactful. A big complaint I have with The Beth releases. People will use anything to advocate their beliefs and often perform crazy mental gymnastics to do so. 

Edited October 26, 2022 by StodgyAyatollah
grammar

[Rudolph]

On 10/26/2022 at 2:35 PM, Wyrmwood said:

I'm beginning to wonder what patch you installed, I don't think you can do any of these things. Nobody can really control what modders add though, just be careful what you install.

No, no, I swear, it is in the vanilla game. Fallout Wiki even has an entry on the subject. Besides, all I installed is the Unofficial Patch.

 

I guess slavery in video games is not as big of a deal than rape and torture (which, I agree, can work when dealt appropriately); in hindsight, the Zerg and even the Terrans in StarCraft are slavers themselves to an extent. But in the case of Fallout 2, which is a game where you play as someone trying to save your dying village, it just strikes me as gratuitous. Like, it does not even make sense within the game's context for your character to even consider engaging in such activity, yet the developers still put it there because reason? With this and the fact that most dialogue choices for your character tend to be incredibly mean, I am beginning to think that whoever wrote this might be a bit of a misanthrope.

 

It is not a deal-breaker for me or anything, it has just taken me offguard (Fallout 1 never felt this mean-spirited) and I just do not approve the feature, especially in light of all the cut content. Oh well...

 

On 10/26/2022 at 2:46 PM, dasho said:

Ah yes, the well known advocates and Rape and Torture Rights marches that I see all the time.

Sam Harris infamously wrote a pro-torture editorial called "In Defense of Torture".

 

American libertarians have become so infamous for advocating the lowering of the age of consent (read: legalizing child rape) that it has become a running gag; even H.Bomberguy made that joke in his New Vegas video when discussing Mr. House.

 

The late Justice Anton Scalia literally used the TV show 24 to defend the very much pro-torture George W. Bush administration.

 

During a recent rally speech, Donald Trump "jokingly" suggested locking up journalists so they would get raped until they gave away their sources.

 

My point is that these topics should not be treated lightly.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Rudolph

[Wyrmwood]

2 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

No, no, I swear, it is in the vanilla game. Fallout Wiki even has an entry on the subject. Besides, all I installed is the Unofficial Patch, which is supposed to only fix bugs.

 

I guess slavery in video games is not as big of a deal than rape and torture (which, I agree, can work when dealt appropriately); in hindsight, the Zerg and even the Terrans in StarCraft are slavers themselves to an extent. But in the case of Fallout 2, which is a game where you play as someone trying to save your dying village, it just strikes me as gratuitous. Like, it does not even make sense within the game's context for your character to even consider engaging in such activity, yet the developers still put it there because reason? With this and the fact that most dialogue choices for your character tend to be incredibly mean, I am beginning to think that whoever wrote this might be a bit of a misanthrope.

 

It is not a deal-breaker for me or anything, it has just taken me offguard (Fallout 1 never felt this mean-spirited as this) and I just do not approve the inclusion of this feature, especially in light of all the cut content.

 

OK sorry guess I just completely missed that element. Not played that part yet but I'm sure there's a raider dlc for Fallout 4 that let's you catch slaves too which does seem an unlikely career for a guy supposed to be looking for his kidnapped baby son. Maybe he just goes crazy or something!

[mrthejoshmon]

1 hour ago, Rudolph said:

I do not mind there being rape, torture and slavery in Fallout, but I do not think it should let you partake in them, especially considering the series' tone.

I think there is literally only 1 of those that you can take part in.

 

Not only that but the whole slavery thing is literally for evil characters, y'know, like your reputation and Karma takes a massive hit and it makes you an active enemy of the NCR (which is nothing short of detrimental to your health and locks you out of certain things, as shown on the wiki):

 

Like, it isn't a good thing, it isn't shown to be a good thing and you aren't actively encouraged to do it, same with killing a child (which you can do and the effects of which are absolutely crippling):

 

 

Do bad shit get bad outcomes, your followers will leave you and super tough encounters happen to you at random, it isn't exactly without consequence.

 

I mean, wait till Fallout 4 where you can commit Genocide, or Fallout 3 where you commit slavery with even less punishment and do a quest to capture a child for a creepy grown ass man, or nuke a town, or genocide (again)...

Edited October 26, 2022 by mrthejoshmon

[Rudolph]

4 minutes ago, mrthejoshmon said:

I think there is literally only 1 of those that you can take part in.

Never claimed the opposite. I just brought up rape and torture as additional examples of things I do not think should be made into gameplay mechanics.

 

Sometimes, it feels to me like developers are trying too hard to come up with "evil" stuff for your character to do just for the sake of it.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Rudolph

[mrthejoshmon]

2 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Never claimed the opposite. I just brought up rape and torture as additional examples of things I do not think should be made into gameplay mechanics.

Then it would help you more to either be more articulate/specific because it certainly looked that way.

 

3 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Sometimes, it feels to me like developers are trying too hard to come up with "evil" stuff for your character to do just for the sake of it.

... Or it could be that they actually have to make the evil side of the game viable?

[PsychEyeball]

Yes, there is slavery in Fallout 2. Yes, you can become a slaver. And again, people in the game are going to be very comprehensive and respectful to you in return. People in cities might even start to put posters on walls saying they want you! Because of course you're a swell guy.

 

Have you ever stopped and thought that if something bad is in a piece of media, it doesn't mean said bad thing is glorified or encouraged? Personally, I'm all up for that sort of inclusion because the game make it clear for you: do this, and you'll be in for a world of hurt. Not to mention: this is a post apocalyptic wasteland? You seriously think that everything is gonna be sunshiny and fun, with nothing but good people with great intentions?

 

Sometimes I wonder if you just read certain words, then your mind blanks out and you decide to skip out on everything that followed that would give away the full explanation, which would probably save everyone a whole lot of time so they don't have to run it back to you word by word.

[Rudolph]

16 minutes ago, PsychEyeball said:

Not to mention: this is a post apocalyptic wasteland? You seriously think that everything is gonna be sunshiny and fun, with nothing but good people with great intentions?

What is stopping them?

 

The post-apocalyptic wasteland of Fallout is fictional and as such the developers were free to make it to be whatever they wanted it to be. You did not have the ability to be a slaver in Fallout 1 as far as I am aware; in fact, your only encounter with a slaver involves rescuing one of his slaves. For whatever reason, Black Isle felt like what the sequel needed this time around was an option to become a slaver.

 

To paraphrase the movie Jurassic Park, the developers were so preoccupied with whether they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Rudolph

[PsychEyeball]

In Fallout 1, you could befriend the Khans by killing random slaves, side with a backstabbing casino owner who sent an assassin to kill the town's mayor, slaughter a church's occupants (along the head nun and children), kill off the only non corrupt pocket of people living in the boneyard and allow a despotic stranglehold that treats its citizens no better than slaves...

 

But Fallout 2 allowing you to be a slaver somehow goes too far?

 

Again, this series is probably not for you.

[mrthejoshmon]

God forbid if you want to play anything but the Lawful Good Paladin.

 

I usually main the Lawful Good Holier than Thou character but options are always fun, I've played many additional character roles in Fallout such as shameless opportunistic mercenary, zealous to a fault fanatic, blind to error patriot, self-centred raider, agent of random chaos, murderer for hire, cannibalistic legionary...

 

All of these characters wouldn't exist without the capacity to commit awful acts, I have committed several acts deemed unjust by the Geneva convention and I tell you what chief it's a lotta fun to create and mess around as characters you would never be or condone.

 

You just need to stop imposing your morality on things that aren't your decision to make.

Edited October 26, 2022 by mrthejoshmon

[Rudolph]

12 minutes ago, PsychEyeball said:

In Fallout 1, you could befriend the Khans by killing random slaves

When is that? I just did the Tandi quest as a high IN/CH and I did not see any option to befriend Garl and his crew.

 

12 minutes ago, PsychEyeball said:

this series is probably not for you.

Dude, I have been praising Fallout 2 as an improvement over its predecessor (which I ended up liking) so far, but the moment you see me thinking critically about some questionable optional content that feels gratuitous and mean-spirited, you tell me that Fallout as a whole is not for me? People on this thread have been trash-talking entire games (i.e. Fallout 3, 4 and 76); is Fallout not for them as well? Like, come on...

Edited October 26, 2022 by Rudolph

[Redneckerz]

On 10/25/2022 at 4:53 PM, Rudolph said:

My gripe with the isometric view is that it makes it very difficult to spot doors on the northern and eastern side of buildings (or the western and southern walls of rooms) or enemies in cramped environments. I also had to resort to a walkthrough to figure out where to locate that damn Lavender Flower book, but holy shit, I had to stand right next to it in order to see it because it was hidden by a wall.

Aren't you lucky they went 3D with the series!

8 hours ago, Rudolph said:

Wait, you can literally kick doors open in Fallout 2? :o

Why are you perpetually surprised that you can do certain things in games, primarily because you use a class or a playstyle that generally wouldn't invite you to do these things in the first place?

 

7 hours ago, Rudolph said:

However, I must say that I am not okay with Fallout 2 giving you the ability to become a slaver and take part in slave raids: thankfully, it is entirely optional, but why oh why would you put that in a video game? Killing, lying and stealing can be morally justified, but rape, torture and slavery? That is a big no-no to me, even in a video game...

Whatever your moral objections, it doesn't stop you from playing the game and writing diary entries about them regarding your playstyle.

Far as i can tell the title is thoughts on Fallout Games, not ''My Personal Wasteland: Diary Entries from the Underground by Rudolph The Reckless''.

 

5 hours ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

This thread has been nothing more than Rudolph's Fallout Diary for the last 7 pages.

You could say he is a...

 

 

Fall Out Boy.

 

 

I see myself out.

2 hours ago, Rudolph said:

I do not mind there being rape, torture and slavery in Fallout, but I do not think it should let you partake in them, especially considering the series' tone.

I figure GTA would also be a dealbreaker to you because the player can steal vehicles, run them over and punch granny's.

 

In Postal 2 i can piss over a cop after shooting him with a gun whose barrel is up a Cat's bum.

 

Last time i checked in my city, the cops were doing their thing, which is yelling ''WII-U WII-U WII-U WII-U'' in their cars.

 

Your risk assessment is as enticing as mid 00's Jack Thompson's crusade for morality.

 

1 hour ago, Rudolph said:

No, no, I swear, it is in the vanilla game. Fallout Wiki even has an entry on the subject. Besides, all I installed is the Unofficial Patch.

So for all anyone knows - until now, that is - the whole slaver's thing may aswell be a part of the patch.

Quote

I guess slavery in video games is not as big of a deal than rape and torture (which, I agree, can work when dealt appropriately);

Certainly not that big of a deal, we just have:

• The entire Abe's Oddysee/Exodus series
• Various Peter Molyneux games
• Dungeon Keeper
• Lemmings (!)
• Something more humours like Theme Park/Rollercoaster Tycoon (You can practically force your workers to do shit)

Rape and torture are usually subjects that appear in games that want to be controversial, like Hatred.

Quote

The late Justice Anton Scalia literally used the TV show 24 to defend the very much pro-torture George W. Bush administration.

 

During a recent rally speech, Donald Trump "jokingly" suggested locking up journalists so they would get raped until they gave away their sources.

Oh good. I am glad you brought up two real-world examples to support your theory that a virtual game world shouldn't let you do things you obviously cannot do in the real world. I am also glad those two examples are political in nature, almost as if you want to drive a point home but you don't have any other means to do so other than those examples.

 

Its almost as if your moral standards should be absolute when we are individuals and can make up our own damn minds.

Quote

My point is that these topics should not be treated lightly.

That's why they should be separate threads, or start a new one: ''My Personal Wasteland: Diary Entries from the Underground by Rudolph The Reckless''.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Redneckerz

[StodgyAyatollah]

6 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

That's why they should separate threads, or start a new one: ''My Personal Wasteland: Diary Entries from the Underground by Rudolph The Reckless''.

After basically parroting an argument the fundamentalists used to go after D&D back in the day it may be best he have his own thread considering Fallout was heavily inspired by D&D and people, especially ones around in the 80s won't take kindly to that.

[Rudolph]

What do you know, there is an option to join the Khans in Fallout 1. In my defense, Garl is so volatile that I could not have possibly guessed that the dialogue option would yield any other result than making all the Khans hostile, which happens even when I try to talk to him again. Compare that to Fallout 2 where it is one of the few dialogue options given to a low intelligence character. Metzger would not even let me barter for Vic's life, even though I had the cash, but he will let me take part in slave runs in a heartbeat, no matter how many times I bother him...

 

Either way, I do not think it does take away from my overall point, which is that this sort of content feels just gratuitous and mean-spirited to me. However, as I said before, it is not a deal-breaker for me and it does not make dislike the parts of Fallout 2 that I have been enjoying so far.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Rudolph

[dasho]

1 hour ago, Rudolph said:

The late Justice Anton Scalia literally used the TV show 24 to defend the very much pro-torture George W. Bush administration.

 

During a recent rally speech, Donald Trump "jokingly" suggested locking up journalists so they would get raped until they gave away their sources.

 

My point is that these topics should not be treated lightly.

 

Nice tangents, but ultimately irrelevant. Having mature/dark/adult scenarios in a game that is marketed to adults is not "normalizing" the behavior in said scenarios, else we might as well do away with all fiction altogether.

[StodgyAyatollah]

57 minutes ago, dasho said:

 

Nice tangents, but ultimately irrelevant. Having mature/dark/adult scenarios in a game that is marketed to adults is not "normalizing" the behavior in said scenarios, else we might as well do away with all fiction altogether.

Strange that a game heavily influenced by the movie a boy and his dog, in which the protagonist is

Spoiler

a serial rapist who kills and cannibalizes a woman because he chooses his dog over her

Could have such dark subject matter. 

[Rudolph]

8 hours ago, Sonikkumania said:

I put some info regarding Slavers here in spoiler tags you can check out if you don't mind getting spoilers:

  Hide contents

In New California Republic, you can join NCR Rangers who hunt down Slavers too.

 

Nice. Hopefully, I will have grown stronger by then, as while in Redding, I made the mistake of enlisting in a caravan: we got wiped out by a pack of Floaters. :S

 

3 hours ago, mrthejoshmon said:

... Or it could be that they actually have to make the evil side of the game viable?

Well, I guess that is where we fundamentally disagree: I just do not think being evil should have been viable in Fallout 2, given its premise and story.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Rudolph

[Wyrmwood]

15 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Well, I guess that is where we fundamentally disagree: I just do not think being evil should have been viable in Fallout 2, given its premise and story.

 

I can't agree with you on this. JRPGs have you follow a story playing characters they created like an interactive book and that's fine. These games are for fans of Dungeons and Dragons and other pen and paper games. You create the character and decide how they act, that's the whole appeal. It's true almost all CRPGs have a storyline that ill suits evil though, playing evil in Baldurs Gate means occasionally visiting a chapel to make a charitable donation to raise your reputation high enough to actual talk to npcs. I appreciate that Fallout at least made more effort in this regard. You can just be good and ignore the evil stuff anyway. Me, I like to be bad sometimes;)

[Rudolph]

I guess my issue with most "evil" routes I have experienced in video games is that they feel so forced, as they usually require having your character pull improbable heel turns, and they ultimately boil down to achieving some edgy-for-the-sake-of-being-edgy antics that do not bring much to the experience other than make me cringe. I have heard much criticisms about Fallout 3's Megaton in that regard, but honestly, to me, giving the Chosen One the ability to become a slaver in the middle of their quest to save their dying village feels just as perplexing.

 

I hear Obsidian made a CRPG named Tyranny that is literally about the aftermath of villains triumphing. That looks potentially interesting, assuming of course that it deals with its themes and story in a smart and mature way.

Edited October 27, 2022 by Rudolph

[Wyrmwood]

10 hours ago, Rudolph said:

I guess my issue with most "evil" routes I have experienced in video games is that they feel so forced, as they usually require having your character pull improbable heel turns, and they ultimately boil down to achieving some edgy-for-the-sake-of-being-edgy antics that do not bring much to the experience other than make me cringe. I have heard much criticisms about Fallout 3's Megaton in that regard, but honestly, to me, giving the Chosen One the ability to become a slaver in the middle of their quest to save their dying village feels just as perplexing.

 

I hear Obsidian made a CRPG named Tyranny that is literally about the aftermath of villains triumphing. That looks potentially interesting, assuming of course that it deals with its themes and story in a smart and mature way.

 

Now that I can agree with, I don't think any game yet has perfectly implemented both paths. Guess they would almost have to make several full games that run parallel. The first Witcher game did this to a certain extent, though in a limited way and the choices weren't good or evil but bad or bad or do nothing which was worse. Depending on your choices the entire next section of the game would be completely different. It's a little unfair to expect devs to do this though, they need to make nearly twice as much content and to be honest it felt forced too as it basically breaks down a binary choice at various points. There are smaller choices but other than some cut-scenes to show consequences they don't really change anything. For that game it kinda works but that game has a fixed character who is supposed to be a sort of anti-hero.

 

Tyranny works in a similar way, it's quite a short game with two obvious paths and one other you need to work a little for and those choices make a big difference to the game, there's smaller choices that have consequences within the story but ultimately don't alter it. Based on your other posts I think you would hate it. The three paths are basically Nazi's, Huns or the hard-core IRA and the entire game is on a timer (though that was never an issue for me). You have to be evil, the game likes to trick you as well, sometimes you think your picking the lesser of two evils but actually it works out worse. It's a great game but research a little maybe before you buy.

 

Baldurs Gate 3 is promising great things regarding player choice and alternative solutions to quests but every computer game will have limits. Really the only way to fully role-play is with a human Dungeon Master, video games you need to temper expectations and be able to suspend disbelief to fully enjoy.

 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by Wyrmwood

[Rudolph]

On 10/27/2022 at 6:18 AM, Wyrmwood said:

Tyranny works in a similar way, it's quite a short game with two obvious paths and one other you need to work a little for and those choices make a big difference to the game, there's smaller choices that have consequences within the story but ultimately don't alter it. Based on your other posts I think you would hate it. The three paths are basically Nazi's, Huns or the hard-core IRA and the entire game is on a timer (though that was never an issue for me). You have to be evil, the game likes to trick you as well, sometimes you think your picking the lesser of two evils but actually it works out worse. It's a great game but research a little maybe before you buy.

Maybe, but see, Tyranny's core premise is about being part of an oppressive system and thus your actions, however objectionable, do serve a purpose and do not feel gratuitous. As such, having little choice but to commit evil deeds feels a lot more appropriate here and I trust the game is able to handle its subject in a deeper, more mature matter. Therefore, in the event that I try the game and end up hating it, I could not really complain, as I would have to know what I signed for. And I am not going to lie, the perspective of being able to play as the hardcore IRA does sound increasingly appealing. :P

 

* * *

 

Anyway, back to Fallout, I decided to go back to Fallout 1 and play as a high IN/CH character, which allows me to make the most of the Hub, something that I was barred from doing so playing as a low IN character. The missing caravans subplot was pretty fun, especially my encounter with Harold. It is just a shame that unlike other NPCs, he is inexplicably unwilling to repeat his story and he does not appear to have much else to say. :(

Edited October 28, 2022 by Rudolph