Thoughts on the Fallout Games?

[Redneckerz]

18 hours ago, Rudolph said:

Well, I am getting overwhelmed and frustrated with the game again: despite building my character to be a one-punch man, I am struggling to fight my way into the Raiders camp.

Like @TheMagicMushroomMan mentioned, you are developing an purely combat-faced character in an RPG that is known for its slower pace and more balanced character builds.

18 hours ago, Rudolph said:

I guess I could always start over as a more talkative character, but I do not feel like it, given how slow the game is and how there does not seem to be a way to skip combat with creatures: the moment one spots me, I see my movements get limited by Action Points and it does not seem like I can run away from fights. I might watch a longplay of the game instead, so I can experience the amazing atmosphere and worldbuilding.

This is literally how Fallout is mean't to be played (Atleast the older ones). Sure you get some versatility, but this is the equivalent of you complaining that Doomguy doesn't have a progression system and character development arc in Doom.

 

17 hours ago, Rudolph said:

I guess the best of both worlds would be a full-fledged remake of Fallout 1 and 2 in New Vegas style. I am surprised that Bethesda has yet to do that;

In a world where Bethesda isn't working on Starfield, you can be surprised indeed. But we are living in a world where Bethesda is working on Starfield.

 

So it isn't surprising they aren't working on Fallout 1/2 remake in New Vegas style. Ofcourse, you are surprised because the why question never gets answered by you beforehand. It would save you quite a few surprises though!

 

It also isn't surprising that Bethesda, in that world, isn't remaking these games in New Vegas's style, because New Vegas was helmed by Obsidian Entertainment.

 

So the natural thought is: ''Why isn't Obsidian Entertainment helming a remake in New Vegas style, if they made New Vegas?''

 

I am glad you asked Rudolph! Well, they are working on The Outer Worlds 2, which is this sci-fi like take on Elder Scrolls games. And they work on Avowed, a first-person RPG remarkably similar to.. you guessed it.

 

So maybe thats why nobody is working on them. 

 

17 hours ago, Rudolph said:

it seems like a much safer bet than Fallout 76, a game that has been such a disaster that even I, a neophyte to the Fallout franchise, have heard about.

Glad you are only getting half the picture. Yes, FO76 was a disaster, but they have come to terms in recent years similar to No Man's Sky, delivering a whole stack of updates for free. So its decent now.

[StodgyAyatollah]

10 minutes ago, hybridial said:

 

And I completely disagree, the designers should take some care to make most if not all builds are *viable*. A ROLE playing game should allow a great degree of freedom of choice in player action based on their skills, and you're basically saying when it comes to the design of encounters that the devs should completely ignore a bunch of options they gave the players. No, that's just terrible design.

 

 

Disparity among builds is a core element of classic rpg design. If you look at a combat focused rpg like Diablo 2 a bad build pretty much ruins your character. FO being story focused just makes things more challenging. There is fair criticism that INT and AGI are favored a bit too heavily or that CHA is basically a dump stat but a slow, dumb character with high CHA can still make it through the game. Compared to what came before it where you were usually forced into very specific builds based on class it allowed a much wider range of builds.

[Gez]

3 hours ago, Rudolph said:

I hate it when RPGs feature stats or skills that are essentially beginner's traps. I mean, what is even the point, other than waste precious points?

Old CRPGs were often largely based on pen-and-paper RPGs, and so came with a lot of baggage that was technically superfluous. The focus was on giving you a lot of options so that you can make the character you want to make. Often also, there was grand ambition at the start but lots of stuff had to be cut, so some skills end up being useless.

 

The best example of that is the language skills in Daggerfall. There are plenty of monster language skills in that game, but you can't speak to monsters. What's the point of the language skills then? Their only effect is that they give you a chance not to aggro a monster. But that check is done every so often, instead of like just once per monster. So the monster you don't aggro will end up getting aggroed anyway because even with a high skill, sooner or later you'll fail a check. So all it does is give a random delay before monster goes aggro.

 

But also, early games were not afraid to let the player figure things out by trial and error. Nowadays games are designed so that you can complete them in one sitting on your first try. Every suboptimal choice is removed, and every quest has giant floating markers so that the game has basically a built-in walkthrough.

[Rudolph]

2 hours ago, Gez said:

Nowadays games are designed so that you can complete them in one sitting on your first try.

I do not see that as a necessarily bad thing, especially for people who only have so many hours in a day due to work, family and so on. Heck, I cannot even get my aging father - who, unlike me, was able to go through the Myst series - to play video games anymore as he can no longer handle the stress. It is kind of heart-breaking to me, as I have very fond memories of us playing The Neverhood together when I was a child and trying to figure out the game's (sometimes downright counterintuitive) puzzles and I am sure we would have had fun playing Return to the Obra Dinn together. 

 

Besides, there are still games out there where suboptimal choices are their main selling point, e.g. choose-your-adventure games like Supermassive's. However, in role-playing games where it can take hours to realize that your build is useless and you have basically no choice but to start over from scratch, this time with a walkthrough in hand, it just feels like a cruel joke to me.

Edited October 18, 2022 by Rudolph

[PKr]

1 hour ago, Rudolph said:

I do not see how that is necessarily a bad thing, especially for people who only have so many hours in a day due to work, family and so on.

The problem with that concept is that - while yes, there are so many hours in a day - it doesn't mean that you have to jump from one game to another just to see final credits and never launch the game ever again. I mean, you can dedicate your x amount of hours in a day to multiple games which you don't really like playing, or instead focus on a single game that you really like playing.

 

The time spent on games in total will be the same regardless if you have so many hours in a day for gaming and play one game or multiple games over the course of multiple gaming sessions...

 

Imo if you say something like "oh, I have only X hours in my day for Y amount games because reasons, but I am not spending X hours in that 1 game", then that is an indicator of one of two possible things: either you don't like playing that particular game and would like to spend that time playing other games instead or you are playing games for totally wrong reasons (ie finishing games to see final credits, and not for the sake of playing games). While the former is perfectly fine, the latter means that you are wasting your time on things you don't actually enjoy doing and should reconsider your hobbies.

 

Now, I am not saying that you in particular said those things. I am just pointing out that in general "I have an x amount of hours for gaming, and I am not spending that time in XYZ game" argument is complete bollocks especially in a context of rating some specific game qualities (ie "Fallout skills are bs because I have x amount of hours in a day for gaming" means jack).

Edited October 18, 2022 by PKr

[Rudolph]

@PKr I disagree. If I have only so many hours in a day for gaming, then I definitely want to make them count. I cannot help but feel like Fallout is a game that I would (and should) definitely enjoy if only I could figure out how to play it "right". However, as of yet, all my attempts have felt unsuccessful, as my characters have proven themselves to be ill-equipped to deal with what the game is throwing at me; at first, I thought it was just me not being "good enough", but now that I have been told that there are indeed many stats and skills that are indeed not worth it so to speak, I cannot shake the impression that the game is actually preventing me from enjoying it, if that makes any sense.

 

Like, given all the melee skills and perks present in the game, I would have thought that it would be viable to roleplay as Kenshiro, but I guess not.

Edited October 18, 2022 by Rudolph

[PKr]

22 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

I cannot help but feel like Fallout is a game that I would (and should) definitely enjoy if

...but you don't. 😄 And that is what's important. No if's and but's - you are not enjoying the game. There is really no need to complicate things any further. Drop the game. Sorry for an "out-of-context" quote, but that's where I'd interrupt you in a real conversation.

[hybridial]

@RudolphI'm gonna put a suggestion out there which works for me in these situations and is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

 

If your issue you are struggling at the beginning; do some research. Read part of a guide, figure out how to get yourself in a position where you're comfortable. I think that's bordering on necessary for games of this particular kind. I don't agree with your point of view @PKr, I think there's a genuine difference between struggling with a game early on because it's most difficult upfront and actively disliking the experience of playing a game. System Shock 2 is a game I ended up loving but it's not a game that's very fun to go in blind. I did a similar thing with Deus Ex and honestly ended up not really liking that one but at least I got about half way through it and felt I understood the game before making that decision. 

[PKr]

@hybridial let's find out then.

 

@Rudolph are you struggling with the game because it's difficult?

[Sonikkumania]

In case someone is still unaware, there's an unofficial restoration project for Fallout 2 by Killap that restores some cut content and contains bugfixes.

 

There's nothing more irritating in the wasteland than having a good time with F2 playthrough and then having motherfuckers blasting your ass with assault rifles in Gecko due to bugs.

[Rudolph]

51 minutes ago, PKr said:

are you struggling with the game because it's difficult?

Well... yeah? :P

 

And no, it is not that I do not enjoy the game: the music is great, the atmosphere is haunting and memorable, the writing is sharp, the combat is serviceable at the very least... but as I pointed out before, it is not exactly clear to me how I should approach the game. The advices I have received on this thread have been greatly helpful, because the game does not appear to do a very good job at teaching me how to play: since the game seems to love throwing unskippable fights with mutated animals at me early on, I thought building a tank character who is not too smart but sure can throw a punch would be a good idea, as there seems to be many melee-related skills and perks and it sounds like a good way to save on bullets... However, a couple hours in, I find myself regretting my choices, as I still get easily overwhelmed by radscorpions and I just cannot seem to be able to punch my way past ordinary bandits armed with guns and melee weapons.

 

So I am still in the process of figuring out what works and what does not and I find it frustrating that I have to restart from scratch every time the latter happens. The furthest I have gotten so far ever since I have decided to reinstall the game is the Khan base and while I get that the area is entirely optional, I reckon that if I cannot deal with that, then I might just not be able to deal with the unskippable fights that await me further down the road. I guess I could always starting grinding to improve my character, but the time limit forces to push forward.

 

1 hour ago, hybridial said:

System Shock 2 is a game I ended up loving but it's not a game that's very fun to go in blind.

I did not have that problem with System Shock 2: in fact, I would argue that going in blind is best, as that is when the game is at its scariest.

 

It also helps that System Shock 2 is pure survival horror, so the only possible interactions with NPCs is to either fight or avoid them - although the latter becomes impossible towards the end, as the game becomes increasingly linear due to having had its development time cut short.

Edited October 18, 2022 by Rudolph

[PKr]

@RudolphI see. Well, I have never had that problem in Fallout as I always preferred sniper character archetypes, and as a result I have probably never created pure melee characters in Fallouts before. At least I don't remember playing the game this way. So it's hard for me to relate to the issues you're facing in the game rn. Glad you're playing the game because you're having fun and not because you "need to" though. 👍

[Rudolph]

Okay, so I finally manage to build a melee-only character that was able to punch his way through the Khan Base and rescue Tandi. Even managed to salvage a shotgun, which works wonder against radscorpions, even if it is not what I have been building my character for.

 

EDIT: Ah, fuck. Just when I thought I was finally getting the hang of it, the game starts throwing supermutants at me... -_-

Edited October 18, 2022 by Rudolph

[StodgyAyatollah]

5 hours ago, hybridial said:

If your issue you are struggling at the beginning; do some research. Read part of a guide, figure out how to get yourself in a position where you're comfortable. I think that's bordering on necessary for games of this particular kind.

This is probably the best advice for people who aren't familiar with older games like FO 1&2 and having trouble. Back in the day I had read most, if not all of the 120+ page manual before starting the game and had the context of other games of the time to go off of. Going in from modern games would make things that are clear as day to us old gamers quite confusing.

[Wyrmwood]

21 hours ago, Rudolph said:

What would you recommend me in terms of starting stats, skills and perks?

 

Sorry went to bed but @PsychEyeball answered for me, all sound like good advice.

21 hours ago, Rudolph said:

well, I have not seen A Fistful of Dollars, but I have seen Yojimbo - the movie it is essentially a remake of

 

Never knew Fistful was a remake, not a big connoisseur of world film I'm afraid. Guessing it has an cigar chewing Edo era samurai! I have seen the remake of the remake Last Man Standing with Bruce Willis though. Damn we should of used these in the "actually good remakes thread"

 

edit: just read your last post and I hear New Vegas is lovely this time of year. Come back to this later with a fresh character that isn't forced into soloing the whole game, you're trying "challenge mode" for experienced players. You're supposed to have followers in this. Think if you carry on now you'll end up hating the game.

 

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Wyrmwood

[Rudolph]

1 hour ago, Wyrmwood said:

Never knew Fistful was a remake, not a big connoisseur of world film I'm afraid. Guessing it has an cigar chewing Edo era samurai! I have seen the remake of the remake Last Man Standing with Bruce Willis though. Damn we should of used these in the "actually good remakes thread"

Well, it is actually a bit more complicated than that. From what I understand, Yojimbo is in many ways a stealth adaptation of Dashiell Hammett's novel Red Harvest. As for the protagonist of Yojimbo, he is much more proud and arrogant than Clint Eastwood's Man With No Name.

 

Anyway, I did it: I got the Water Chip back to Vault 13! The Necropolis was a really cool to explore, easily my favorite location in the whole game. In fact, I feel like stopping there on a high note, even if the game is technically not over, as I really do not feel like dealing with the super mutants: my only encounter with one was highly unpleasant and I would have probably rage-quitted had I not found a way past them to the Water Chip, so spending the rest of the game having to decimate their ranks under another time limit? No thanks.

 

Plus the whole turn-based combat system is really showing its limitations, as upon taking the Water Chip, I found myself stuck in combat mode and thus forced to wait for every fucking ghoul to slowly move around the level during their turns until I left the Necropolis altogether. I shudder to imagine this happening again as I assault the super mutant stronghold and having to wait for every single one of them to make their move between each turn.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Rudolph

[Rudolph]

Hey, GOG Galaxy just recommended me UnderRail as a game similar to Fallout. Anyone familiar with it? If so, is it a viable alternative to Fallout 1 and 2?

[StodgyAyatollah]

11 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Hey, GOG Galaxy just recommended me UnderRail as a game similar to Fallout. Anyone familiar with it? If so, is it a viable alternative to Fallout 1 and 2?

Judging by you're experience with FO 1 you'll probably hate it. Very build dependent and less forgiving.

[_bruce_]

On 10/19/2022 at 2:13 AM, Rudolph said:

Well, it is actually a bit more complicated than that. From what I understand, Yojimbo is in many ways a stealth adaptation of Dashiell Hammett's novel Red Harvest. As for the protagonist of Yojimbo, he is much more proud and arrogant than Clint Eastwood's Man With No Name.

 

Anyway, I did it: I got the Water Chip back to Vault 13! The Necropolis was a really cool to explore, easily my favorite location in the whole game. In fact, I feel like stopping there on a high note, even if the game is technically not over, as I really do not feel like dealing with the super mutants: my only encounter with one was highly unpleasant and I would have probably rage-quitted had I not found a way past them to the Water Chip, so spending the rest of the game having to decimate their ranks under another time limit? No thanks.

 

Plus the whole turn-based combat system is really showing its limitations, as upon taking the Water Chip, I found myself stuck in combat mode and thus forced to wait for every fucking ghoul to slowly move around the level during their turns until I left the Necropolis altogether. I shudder to imagine this happening again as I assault the super mutant stronghold and having to wait for every single one of them to make their move between each turn.

 

The "endless turn dilemma" can be nerve wrecking - one of the few downsides of the game. Only remedy is increasing combat speed as far as I remember.

[Rudolph]

Oh, you are right! I forgot about that option. Well, I will keep that in mind the next time I decide to give the game a go.

 

In the meantime, if there are good alternatives to isometric Fallout, I would love to know! I have mentioned UnderRail already and I tried Crusader: No Remorse (which is neither turn-based nor much of a RPG, but it still reminds me a lot of Fallout), but unfortunately, that one is nigh unplayable.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Rudolph

[Sonikkumania]

15 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

 

In the meantime, if there are good alternatives to isometric Fallout, I would love to know! I have mentioned UnderRail already and I tried Crusader: No Remorse (which is neither turn-based nor much of a RPG, but it still reminds me a lot of Fallout), but unfortunately, that one is nigh unplayable.

I haven't played it much myself, but you could try Shadowrun for SNES. I guess using an emulator would be the legit way to play it.

[Rudolph]

Hey, question for Fallout 1 veterans: why does Unarmed attacks cost more AP than Brass Knuckles attacks?

 

Is this a bug or are there factors that make Unarmed somehow more powerful?

Edited October 20, 2022 by Rudolph

[BaileyTW]

1 hour ago, Rudolph said:

Hey, question for Fallout 1 veterans: why does Unarmed attacks cost more AP than Brass Knuckles attacks?

 

Is this a bug or are there factors that make Unarmed somehow more powerful?

In my one playthrough of fallout 1 with my friend our main combat skill was unarmed. Maybe there's a way to make it work but yah you might be at a slight disadvantage. Still perfectly doable.

[Rudolph]

The Fallout wiki tells me that wearing brass knuckles in Fallout 2 and Tactics actually prevents you from pulling out certain hand-to-hand combat techniques while unarmed. However, the article does not make it clear if it also applies to Fallout 1, which would explain why unarmed attacks without any complementary equipment use more AP, so a confirmation would be nice to have.

 

But yeah, I have once again changed my mind and reinstalled the game: using the Fallout Fixt, I have greatly increased the time limit, so I already feel much more confident in my ability to build a viable character that can survive what the game throws at me.

 

I am now trying to roleplay as Kenshiro, i.e. a melee powerhouse who does not think much and is only slightly less eloquent that the Hokuto No Ken protagonist, which feels even more appropriate once I get my hands on the Metal Armor.

 

Here is a summary of how my visit to the Khans Base went (minus the Stimpak spamming against Garl):

 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Rudolph

[MrFroz]

Been curious to play the first game because Brian Mitsoda cites it as an inspiration for getting into game narrative design, and Mitsoda worked on Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines which is one of my favorite games.

[Rudolph]

All this Fallout talk made me want to rewatch H.Bomberguy's two video essays on Fallout 3 and New Vegas, respectively. Check them out, if you have not done so already! They are pretty much the reason why I refuse to give up on Fallout 1 despite all the setbacks I have been experiencing.

 

 

 

[StodgyAyatollah]

1 hour ago, MrFroz said:

Been curious to play the first game because Brian Mitsoda cites it as an inspiration for getting into game narrative design, and Mitsoda worked on Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines which is one of my favorite games.

If you like Vampire and can get past the dated controls it's well worth checking out. If you do want to play FO1 just to experience the narrative it's short and can be a fairly quick playthrough with a decent build. You may also want to check out Arcanum. I would definitely suggest looking up a build guide for that one since the combat is a real mess.

 

Here's an example OP starting build for FO1 and a bit of info/opinion that I've learned over the years. No actual spoilers, just mechanics. It should be useful to anyone new. Note that this really is an OP way to play and will trivialize a lot of things once you start progressing so if you feel that may ruin your experience skip this. 

Spoiler

IN and AG are the most OP stats. High IN gives you more skill points on level up and effects some character interactions. AG gives you action points to perform more actions in combat. PE and LK are fairly useful. PE effects you're chance to hit along with range. LK effects you're chance for critical hits and has a few other in game effects like some unique dialog and the chance for special encounters. ST and EN don't have a very big effect. ST gives you some carry weight and EN gives you a small amount of HP and resistance. Their benefits are negligible. CH has almost no effect (they addressed this in the sequel). All stats have other minor effects but these are the big ones.

 

A +1 to all stats except LK can be bought about halfway through and power armor gives +3 to ST so it's not wise to start higher than 6 in ST and 9 in the others except possibly LK. LK can get a +1 in a one time random encounter if you choose the right dialogue. It is entirely possible to never get this encounter.

 

Gifted is a very op trait. Adding 1 to each stat while it's penalty can be easily mitigated through the use of skill books and a high IN. Small frame is one of the better options as it gives you +1 AG at the cost of some carry weight. 

 

For skills, speech is the big one to get the most out of the game. It's worth tagging to get this up quickly. After that a good combat skill is important. A solid choice is to tag both small guns and energy weapons. You can get small guns up quick for the early game when they are common then switch over when you start getting access to higher tier energy weapons. A very exploitable skill is gambling. You don't have to sink a lot of points into it to get insanely rich. Steal can be very useful early game with some save scumming to get some decent gear and doesn't need a lot of points either. Science and repair are useful for some progression and to get a little more out of the game. Lockpick is useful to get up a bit but far from essential. Stealth can be useful in a few circumstances. Doctor can be useful for treating crippled limbs and such but there are doctors that can do this as well. There aren't a lot of traps and you can usually just tank the damage so it's not too important. Outdoorsman minimizes the amount and threat of encounters you have on the over world but more combat = more XP and loot so it's convenient but also has a down side. Big guns are very powerful but take up a lot of you're carry weight. Melee and unarmed can be fun to play around with but are generally less useful than ranged weapons. Throwing isn't very useful outside of some very unique exploits. Barter is virtually useless since even without exploiting gambling and steal it's fairly easy to become super rich. 

 

[Rudolph]

What I can say for sure is that removing the time limit has been truly a game changer, as it allows me to enjoy Fallout without having to fear about running out of time or missing out. So much so that I am now considering not only doing another playthrough - perhaps as a gunslinger or an eloquent pacifist - once I beat the game, but also checking out Fallout 2 before New Vegas. Good thing I persevered after all! :D

 

In many ways, this is not unlike the time I was introduced to Mass Effect: it took me several attempts for the game to finally grow on me, although I reckon Fallout 1 is still a much better designed game than the first Mass Effect across the board.

 

Oh, and what the hell, I am grabbing Fallout 3: GOTY on Epic Games Store after all. I guess there is no harm to it since it is free...

Edited October 21, 2022 by Rudolph

[Wyrmwood]

14 hours ago, Rudolph said:

 

In the meantime, if there are good alternatives to isometric Fallout, I would love to know! I have mentioned UnderRail already and I tried Crusader: No Remorse (which is neither turn-based nor much of a RPG, but it still reminds me a lot of Fallout), but unfortunately, that one is nigh unplayable.

 

The games I found most similar to Fallout classic would be A.T.O.M rpg and Wasteland 2/3.

 

The Wasteland games are made by Brian Fargo the writer of both the original and Fallout, they have more focus on tactical combat and the rpg system is a little different but overall very similar. I only played half of 2 though, I may return but found it a bit slow.

 

The unfortunately named A.T.O.M rpg and it's sequel are Russian fallout clones with more modern graphics. When I say clone I mean it, the rpg system and overall gameplay are pretty much identical. Despite all the Russian pop culture references going right over my head, the game has some cool post apocalyptic locations that are a little different, loved the mutant circus and the characters are quite well written. As a budget indie tribute game I was much more impressed than I expected.

[Capellan]

1 hour ago, Wyrmwood said:

The Wasteland games are made by Brian Fargo the writer of both the original and Fallout, they have more focus on tactical combat and the rpg system is a little different but overall very similar. I only played half of 2 though, I may return but found it a bit slow.

 

Wasteland 2 is definitely quite 90s in its CRPG sensibilities.  There are some sudden, very sharp difficulty spikes and a few instances of "if you choose wrong you can't get the good outcome - and there is nothing to tell you what the right choice is, or even that you are making a narrative choice".  Honestly, I found it a bit of a chore to play at times - too determinedly grim and lacking in NPCs I much cared about.