Which GZDoom/Zandronum features are FPS heavy?

[random_soldier1337]

Just making a list of features that I can turn off in a pinch or otherwise find unnecessary for the tradeoff.

 

I have heard that bloom in GZDoom can reduce FPS by quite a bit.

[seed]

Bloom, dynamic lights, shadowmaps, ambient occlusion, PRB stuff, if playing wads relying on them, if you have a potato.

 

Essentially most graphical enhancements that GZDoom offers when used extensively in maps.

[random_soldier1337]

Sounds a bit lame, tbh. I can't use the thing for what it was designed for?

 

I don't have a potato and I'm not trying to run Brutal Doom with Nuts.wad (or play Nuts on GZD to begin with) but man that sounds like a PITA especially what with many mods being developed solely for GZDoom.

[taufan99]

3 minutes ago, random_soldier1337 said:

Sounds a bit lame, tbh. I can't use the thing for what it was designed for?

 

I don't have a potato and I'm not trying to run Brutal Doom with Nuts.wad (or play Nuts on GZD to begin with) but man that sounds like a PITA especially what with many mods being developed solely for GZDoom.

Depending on your device (as well as mods), you may only disable some of those features. Try experimenting and settle up with what's the best for yours.

[seed]

6 minutes ago, random_soldier1337 said:

Sounds a bit lame, tbh. I can't use the thing for what it was designed for?

 

I don't have a potato and I'm not trying to run Brutal Doom with Nuts.wad (or play Nuts on GZD to begin with) but man that sounds like a PITA especially what with many mods being developed solely for GZDoom.

 

You can, but it is very hardware dependent.

 

You might need to turn some of these off, all of them, or none, it all depends on your configuration.

[random_soldier1337]

3 minutes ago, InDOOMnesia said:

Depending on your device (as well as mods), you may only disable some of those features. Try experimenting and settle up with what's the best for yours.

 

1 minute ago, seed said:

 

You can, but it is very hardware dependent.

 

You might need to turn some of these off, all of them, or none, it all depends on your configuration.

 

That's what I was hoping for actually. That I could form a tier list of sorts based on responses. That X feature consumes a lot, Y consumes a little. So turn off X first, then Y, then Z, etc.

 

Maybe I should edit that into the OP asking to tier the features into degrees of FPS consumption? 

[seed]

15 minutes ago, random_soldier1337 said:

Maybe I should edit that into the OP asking to tier the features into degrees of FPS consumption? 

 

It won't help much, as I said it depends on your configuration mainly, what is taxing to some people may be of no issue to you.

 

Out of all of them, PRB material shaders and dynamic lights are probably the most expensive though, but the latter is only a problem is the number of dynamic lights visible on screen at once is ludicrous. For instance I've recently played a map where I didn't actually expect a massive group of enemies at the very end in an arena without cover (800, to be precise), and all of them fired at the same time. Brought my PC on its knees since all projectiles were in my line of sight, instant 2fps.

Edited June 21, 2020 by seed

[random_soldier1337]

Guess I'll just have to switch to Zan if I can and turn down all the features. Thanks.

[seed]

6 minutes ago, random_soldier1337 said:

Guess I'll just have to switch to Zan if I can and turn down all the features. Thanks.

 

Keep in mind that that's a multiplayer focused port, and doesn't have many of its features - for instance ZScript is completely missing, so for advanced wads you'll still need GZDoom.

 

Don't fall into the dangerous "one size fits all" mentality as a result BTW, there is no such thing when it comes to Doom ports. Each one has its purpose and goals.

Edited June 21, 2020 by seed

[random_soldier1337]

I didn't think about that. I thought most wads still aimed for ZDoom functionality rather than GZD. So I thought to switch over to a fork with high stability in mind.

[Bauul]

For single-player, Zandronum is no more stable than GZDoom. And in fact if you set both to the same graphical settings and played the same map, if you have a modern GPU GZDoom is likely quicker thanks to Vulkan.

 

As Seed said, the most taxing graphical things in GZDoom you'll find in the Post Processing menu. Also, usual stuff like oversampling, anti-aliasing and anisostropic filtering will all work your GPU if you turn them all the way up.

 

Finally, don't think that "all" GZDoom is is fancy graphical effects. Most of what makes it appealing to modders is behind the scenes functionality. You can turn off basically all the Post Processing and still get all the functionality of mods designed for it. 

 

If you don't have a modern GPU though, consider trying LZDoom. It's GZDoom without the modern rendering model, which makes it faster on older hardware. It doesn't have all the features GZDoom does, but it's much more up to date than Zandronum. 

[random_soldier1337]

I thought Vulkan was only good if you had an AMD GPU. Is that true?

[seed]

20 minutes ago, random_soldier1337 said:

I didn't think about that. I thought most wads still aimed for ZDoom functionality rather than GZD. So I thought to switch over to a fork with high stability in mind.

 

Older wads maybe did, new ones not really.

 

The original ZDoom is dead since 2016, no one consciously decides to make wads for otherwise dead ports, if they still work, 99% of times it's purely coincidental. Time flows ever forward.

 

You're going to need more than one port depending on your needs. I personally recommend PrBoom, GZDoom, and Eternity. I am not going to recommend more retro oriented ports as I think you have no nostalgia for how Doom was played and looked like back in 1993, so I don't think Doom Retro, Woof, Crispy Doom, or Chocolate would be of much use to you.

 

11 minutes ago, Bauul said:

If you don't have a modern GPU though, consider trying LZDoom. It's GZDoom without the modern rendering model, which makes it faster on older hardware. It doesn't have all the features GZDoom does, but it's much more up to date than Zandronum. 

 

Note, however, that drfrag has also buried the old render path as well. LZDoom 3.86 is the last version to support GL 2.x.

 

11 minutes ago, Bauul said:

anisostropic filtering

 

Not this though.

 

Anisotropic filtering is completely inexpensive on any reasonably modern card (post-2010 to be precise). But speaking of sampling, supersampling may be something you'd definitely not want to use, it's extremely expensive to my knowledge and for a game like Doom the visual improvements are minimal if not nonexistent, though it's not a typical "GZDoom feature".

 

I'd also advise against using texture rescaling, the improvements are minimal, if at all, while it's also quite taxing on your VRAM. I am not even aware of any mod that seriously requires this.

 

As for Vulkan on AMD, well sadly yes, but GZDoom is not to blame here. AMD's GL support in the drivers is quite awful, so GL applications will run much worse on AMD cards than NVIDIA because of this. NVIDIA has much better GL support.

Edited June 21, 2020 by seed

[random_soldier1337]

Why the recommendation for Eternity and PrBoom? From what I've heard, eternity is really esoteric and PrBoom isn't really for playing mods, if you are concerned about my need to mostly mod my game.

 

Also which one is SSAA? I've seen MSAA and FXAA in GZD but not SSAA.

 

[Bauul]

If your goal is to play single-player focused mods, you need GZDoom. Most of the modding scene focuses around it (or in parallel, Zand if the mod is also multiplayer capable).

 

Ports like Eternity and PRBoom+ are especially useful for playing certain custom wads, in particular slaughtermaps. GZDoom's more robust monster pathfinding code can really make it chug on maps with thousands of monsters. But if you're not interested in playing those, and don't care too much about the small underlying changes GZDoom makes to the core game code (which if you're modding it, probably not) then you don't necessarily need to worry about using anything other than GZDoom for singleplayer and Zand for multiplayer. 

 

[seed]

10 minutes ago, random_soldier1337 said:

Why the recommendation for Eternity and PrBoom? From what I've heard, eternity is really esoteric and PrBoom isn't really for playing mods, if you are concerned about my need to mostly mod my game.

 

Citation needed.

 

Because that's nonsense. It's an advanced, vanilla accurate port with many complevels and Boom/MBF support, hence the Boom part in the same, and it's the go-to port for demo recorders and playing Boom/MBF wads, though GZDoom can play those just fine. I recommended them because you might find them useful. It's also lighter on resources and can play maps with literally thousands on enemies much better than GZDoom does thanks to being a more simplistic engine.

 

Eternity is... how should I put it... PrBoom on steroids. It's also demo/MBF/Boom compatible but also has some more features that can make its gameplay closer to the enhancements ZDoom offers. Also offers EMAPINFO.

Edited June 21, 2020 by seed

[rnemo]

11 minutes ago, random_soldier1337 said:

Why the recommendation for Eternity and PrBoom? From what I've heard, eternity is really esoteric and PrBoom isn't really for playing mods, if you are concerned about my need to mostly mod my game.

 

Speed, for one thing. As @Bauul mentioned, GZDoom can chug on certain maps, and generally has a higher set of system requirements for playing mods that, while not using any advanced source port features, are large and extensive enough to create a demanding environment when rendered with GZDoom's lush visuals. Both PrBoom+ and Eternity engine are solid options for when you want to play an expansive wad at speed on a less than beefy system.

 

Also, while I can't think of any offhand, there are definitely some wads that are going to have notably different game play experiences given the tweaks that GZDoom, and ZDoom before it, made to various behaviors in the engine, and again it's good to know what the solid alternatives are for those situations.

[random_soldier1337]

32 minutes ago, seed said:

 

Citation needed.

 

Because that's nonsense. It's an advanced, vanilla accurate port with many complevels and Boom/MBF support, hence the Boom part in the same, and it's the go-to port for demo recorders and playing Boom/MBF wads, though GZDoom can play those just fine. I recommended them because you might find them useful. It's also lighter on resources and can play maps with literally thousands on enemies much better than GZDoom does thanks to being a more simplistic engine.

 

Eternity is... how should I put it... PrBoom on steroids. It's also demo/MBF/Boom compatible but also has some more features that can make its gameplay closer to the enhancements ZDoom offers. Also offers EMAPINFO.

 

I think I might have created some confusion when I used the term 'mods'. As far as my understanding goes, by mods I meant any modification that changes few or many gameplay elements on a fundamental level. Maps, I think, would be more appropriate when referring to wads that introduce custom maps but keep game behavior more or less the same.

 

20 minutes ago, rnemo said:

 

Speed, for one thing. As @Bauul mentioned, GZDoom can chug on certain maps, and generally has a higher set of system requirements for playing mods that, while not using any advanced source port features, are large and extensive enough to create a demanding environment when rendered with GZDoom's lush visuals. Both PrBoom+ and Eternity engine are solid options for when you want to play an expansive wad at speed on a less than beefy system.

 

Also, while I can't think of any offhand, there are definitely some wads that are going to have notably different game play experiences given the tweaks that GZDoom, and ZDoom before it, made to various behaviors in the engine, and again it's good to know what the solid alternatives are for those situations.

 

What kind of AI changes are there? Sounds like it could affect how you play certain maps.

[seed]

4 minutes ago, random_soldier1337 said:

I think I might have created some confusion when I used the term 'mods'. As far as my understanding goes, by mods I meant any modification that changes few or many gameplay elements on a fundamental level. Maps, I think, would be more appropriate when referring to wads that introduce custom maps but keep game behavior more or less the same.

 

You can make plenty of gameplay changes and new enemies with these ports as well - granted nowhere near what you can achieve with ZScripts or DECORATE but that's besides the point.

 

5 minutes ago, random_soldier1337 said:

What kind of AI changes are there? Sounds like it could affect how you play certain maps.

 

Just extended the AI's capabilities to allow more advanced modifications.

[random_soldier1337]

Interesting... what's the most extensive gameplay mod currently available for PrBoom that you know of?

[Bauul]

4 minutes ago, random_soldier1337 said:

What kind of AI changes are there? Sounds like it could affect how you play certain maps.

 

It's not really "AI" change in the way you're thinking, it's more the way the underlying engine calculates the standard enemy AI. 

 

For example, in the original Doom, in order to speed up Line Of Sight calculations (i.e. to find out if the monster can see the player) the game used a "Reject" lump, basically a giant lookup table that listed every sector that a Thing in any other sector could see.

 

However, in addition to the Reject lump, Doom also has a similar, but separate lump called a Blockmap, that was originally used to calculate collision detection.  It had some bugs of its own, that ZDoom fixed.  But ZDoom also realized you could use the Blockmap to calculate Line of Sight in a much more robust way, making the Reject lump obsolete.  And no bad thing usually, a Reject lump can be huge (bigger than the map itself).

 

But on really, really big maps like say Sunder map 15, this more robust Blockmap method is actually too straining even on modern PCs, and the older Reject approach can yield FPS improvements.

 

11 minutes ago, random_soldier1337 said:

I think I might have created some confusion when I used the term 'mods'. As far as my understanding goes, by mods I meant any modification that changes few or many gameplay elements on a fundamental level. Maps, I think, would be more appropriate when referring to wads that introduce custom maps but keep game behavior more or less the same.

 

No you're right, "mods" does specifically refer to gameplay editing modifications, as opposed to "maps" (or more colloquially, "wads") that just contain new levels.  Sometimes maps contain modifications though, so the line can get a little blurry.

[ReaperAA]

38 minutes ago, random_soldier1337 said:

Interesting... what's the most extensive gameplay mod currently available for PrBoom that you know of?

 

There is D4V (which is meant to work on any port, including vanilla/chocolate) and Minicharge (which requires MBF compatible port, like PrBoom+, Eternity, GZDoom etc.)

[Redneckerz]

2 hours ago, seed said:

Bloom, dynamic lights, shadowmaps, ambient occlusion, PRB stuff, if playing wads relying on them, if you have a potato.

 

Essentially most graphical enhancements that GZDoom offers when used extensively in maps.

I swear you aren't human for how often i see you be the first responder :P

 

(And 9/10 times the response is what i would answer anyway, so thanks!)

2 hours ago, random_soldier1337 said:

Sounds a bit lame, tbh. I can't use the thing for what it was designed for?

If your PC is sufficient enough, then ofcourse you can. Since you mention you don't use a potato computer, you can most likely enjoy GZDoom's full visual feature set. Thus asking this question escapes me, honestly.

 

43 minutes ago, random_soldier1337 said:

Interesting... what's the most extensive gameplay mod currently available for PrBoom that you know of?

Then you would have to look at any mod that heavily features Boom mechanics and/or uses BEX.

 

I like to reference The Last Sanctuary often because it uses a stock Boom feature in a really clever way through a WadC script (Day/Night cycles):

Day:

Spoiler

Night:

Spoiler

 

Edited June 21, 2020 by Redneckerz

[seed]

1 minute ago, Redneckerz said:

I swear you aren't human for how often i see you be the first responder :P

 

(And 9/10 times the response is what i would answer anyway, so thanks!)

 

Heh, it just so happens that I am online when something pops up in my notifications, so if I can I respond :p .

[random_soldier1337]

7 minutes ago, ReaperAA said:

 

There is D4V (which is meant to work on any port, including vanilla/chocolate) and Minicharge (which requires MBF compatible port, like PrBoom+, Eternity, GZDoom etc.)

 

I had forgotten all about D4V and it's uber compatibility in my ZDoom hubbub. Though is there a dedicated repository for non (G)ZDoom mods? I've been paying attention to those till now mostly and don't know of a convenient way to sift through non (G)ZD mods.

 

5 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

If your PC is sufficient enough, then ofcourse you can. Since you mention you don't use a potato computer, you can most likely enjoy GZDoom's full visual feature set. Thus asking this question escapes me, honestly.

 

It was within the context of seed's response. It was very open ended and I responded with the first thing that came to mind. It was short sighted in retrospect. At the time I was thinking from a plug and chug, full throttle mentality i.e. if something doesn't work I'll have to sit down and troubleshoot. "Who wants to do that? --> Turn everything down... wait then what's the point of GZD?"

[AverageDoomguy]

LZDoom can run very well even on older processors such as Intel Celeron or Intel Atom. You can play most of the maps made for the vanilla/boom engine running at the OpenGL renderer at acceptable speeds, though you will struggle with maps and mods that take advantage of the engine's capabilities, such as fog, 3D floors, special effects, and more.

 

 

[Doomkid]

4 hours ago, random_soldier1337 said:

Interesting... what's the most extensive gameplay mod currently available for PrBoom that you know of?

The thing about Vanilla and Boom gameplay mods is that they tend to be all-inclusive total conversions or partial conversions, which is to say they come with their own maps as well, usually ones that are more reflective of the enemy/weapon modifications. The idea of "independent gameplay-only mods that only work in the latest ports" is very much a post-2000s sort of thing, spearheaded by mods like Immoral Conduct and Bomb_X.

 

So, with that out of the way, the most extensive mods I've seen run on PrBoom+ are probably Batman Doom, All Hell is Breaking Loose, STRAIN, or any other number of vanilla or Boom compatible TCs. There are actually a decent handful, though of course none of them go "as far" as the ZDoom/GZDoom stuff does, since you can only rearrange and tweak existing actions in DeHackEd rather than introducing brand new/custom behavior into the mix like you can with DECORATE.

Edited June 21, 2020 by Doomkid