does anyone else get SERIOUSLY annoyed by the city levels in Doom 2

[Kirber]

so basically i was randomly playing doom 2 with some mods, and i hadn't played for a while so i forgot the layout of MAP12
and then i was just running around in a circle with a blue key and a full map, not knowing what to do
that went on for about 10 minutes and i honestly didnt understand why i was doing this so i ragequit
im just asking if its a popular opinion that the city levels in doom 2 sucks

[random_soldier1337]

I personally do find the levels MAP08 onwards dumb from a "it's supposed to be on earth" perspective. The ones prior can be thought of as tech bases or hell subverted tech bases. But afterwards, even with "hell conversion". The places look like nowhere on Earth. Or I thought so until Doom Eternal came out with up to date models and textures and graphical techniques showing what Hell on Earth would look like and I can see how much imagination went into making Doom 2.

 

That's just my "m'immersion" musings, though. Doom 2 is fun. I didn't have too much issue with it. Final Doom onwards (including custom levels) can get dumb but maybe that's because I haven't played them as much.

[Mitchfork]

Yeah, it's a pretty common opinion.

 

In my opinion MAP12 (Factory) and MAP13 (Downtown) are the worst of the bunch so I think it colors a lot of people's opinions of the later, better city levels of MAP15 (Industrial Zone) and MAP16 (Suburbs), which are both pretty good for what they are.

 

Also there are fewer of them than people remember - I wouldn't really call any of the maps except those "city" maps.  MAP19 (Citadel) is structured very differently and MAP20 (Gotcha!) is much more in the vein of Mt. Erebus from Doom 1 than any of the Doom 2 open maps.

 

Edited June 25, 2020 by Mitchfork

[Maximum Matt]

Factory sucks but Downtown is cool

[RonnieJamesDiner]

I agree, something is wrong. As though the monsters have brought their own reality with them.

[magicsofa]

I dunno, I kinda like both of those levels, but they are super weird. I always get lost for a minute when I revisit them, I feel like only speedrunners will have these memorized.

It is a little strange that they didn't make any better city textures. They knew beforehand that it would be taking place on futuristic earth, and yet the only window texture they made was a weird medieval looking cobblestone window with shutters. The black texture does okay as an all-glass building, and the cement textures are decent, but that's about it. Also, the floor in downtown is an odd choice. Why didn't they just use the black one that literally every mapper has used as a road flat?

[DesecratorJ]

I used to hate them as a kid because I could not beat them as I was always getting lost at some point during these levels. Nowadays I find them pretty chill and kinda like them ironically.

[HorrorMovieRei]

They're pretty ugly but I don't hate them. Gameplay wise they go from serviceable to fun.

[Gifty]

Downtown almost singlehandedly kills my run every single time.

[nicolas monti]

I really like dowtown and suburbs, and dislike the inmost dens and industrial zone, but that's a matter of layout and theme for me, not a gameplay one.

Edited June 26, 2020 by nicolas monti

[Doomkid]

Doom2’s “city maps” > most of Doom1’s E3 and E4

[GarrettChan]

Am I reading this right? I feel that OP hates Map12 and conclude every city level into it? Also, playing with MODs, I don't know whether it's the problem of those MODs.

[Egg Boy]

I actually like the more kinetic vertical offerings of doom 2, and while downtown isn't in my top 10 doom 2 maps, I have a fondness for most every other city map, especially since it's not a particularly popular theme these days. Really, my least favorite parts of doom 2 are the techbase levels after tricks and traps, especially the pit.

[The_SloVinator]

Personally, I don't have an issue with it. I think the best thing to do here (without guides) is to focus your orientation & observation.

Memorize the location of certain areas or buildings, just like how you would irl, so you don't get lost.

That's the fun part for me.

But yes, first time can be kind of annoying.

[cu2]

Yeah, I really don't like the factory and downtown because of their non-linearity and few fights, but enjoy suburbs a lot.

Especially the part where you pick the blue key and the whole courtyard gets filled with monsters. It even gives you a secret bfg. Cool stuff.

First time I got there I said out loud "Yeeah, this is Doom!"

 

They are not that bad of maps, but it ultimately comes down to what someone wants out of a map

Edited June 26, 2020 by Lokatzis 007 CJ

[Biodegradable]

"If you need a giant arrow in the level to tell you where to go, the level isn't well designed." -Civvie11

 

Yeah, MAP13 (Downtown) is really annoying when it comes to its level progression, so I'm not a fan of it. Mind you, I try not to judge Sandy Peterson too harshly since he had 17 other maps he also had to make in only a few months before the game was to be released. Big kudos to the man for getting them all done on time.

 

Downtown sucks though :P 

Edited June 26, 2020 by Biodegradable

[Endless]

1 hour ago, Doomkid said:

Doom2’s “city maps” > most of Doom1’s E3 and E4

Quote

and E4

I'm sorry mister, but I gotta stop you right there. Put your hands up.

[Remilia Scarlet]

Maps 12 and 14 aren't too bad, but the rest are among my least-favorite levels in all of Doom.  13, 15, and 19 are hands-down my least-favorite in the whole game, though.

[Get Phobo]

My opinion is this: Any map from Doom 2, no matter how bad, is still better than any map from E4.

[cu2]

8 minutes ago, Get Phobo said:

My opinion is this: Any map from Doom 2, no matter how bad, is still better than any map from E4.

Really? Even E4M9? I dare say I also like E4M2, but only because you can grab the bfg behind the wall from the megaarmor room. (Thanks BigMcDavis)

[Uni]

I dunno about being annoyed about any of these maps. I find them quite cool and still exciting to play, especially Downtown since I still can't remember the progression off the top of my head and the location of secrets in the map, unlike the other more linear, conventional maps in the set. I think the opening shot in The Factory is absolutely fucking awesome, the introduction of the new city skylines and the freedom of choosing a direction to go to are among my favorite moments in Doom 2. Also the fact that fucking giant spiders are roaming a place called a factory. I Still love playing "Sandy Box" type maps and he was definitely a great mapper when it came to ideas and concepts, I'm gonna go ahead and give his maps so slack.

 

They are far away from being the worst in my opinion. I think Bloodfalls is way way weaker in any aspect than those two. In fact, I like Nirvana better.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Uni

[Graf Zahl]

My main problem with Doom 2 is that they didn't build a texture set to fit the theme but tried to make city-style levels with an entirely inappropriate texture set.

This really emphasized the engine's limitations even more.

If you really think about it, many parts of Duke Nukem aren't even any more detailed - but the more fitting textures make all the difference in perception

[Hisymak]

I am not annoyed by city levels in Doom2, and even oppositely, these levels are interesting and unique and look the closest to "realistic" among Doom2 levels (especially Downtown).

1 hour ago, Graf Zahl said:

My main problem with Doom 2 is that they didn't build a texture set to fit the theme but tried to make city-style levels with an entirely inappropriate texture set.

This really emphasized the engine's limitations even more.

If you really think about it, many parts of Duke Nukem aren't even any more detailed - but the more fitting textures make all the difference in perception

You are perfectly right about this! I always percepted the unrealistic level design on Doom2 as limitation of engine itself, but when thinking about it, with more proper textures and level design more realistic-looking places could be made even in Doom. Example is Hexen with lots of detailed decorations, but this is about medeival/fantasy environments.

[seed]

No, they do not bother me.

 

Unlike others I like Doom 2 for what it is, but it could've used some better textures for these levels to be more pleasant to the eyes in general. Duke's city maps aren't really that amazing, but its very good texture set made them feel a lot more realistic and less abstract and primitive.

[Biodegradable]

3 minutes ago, seed said:

Unlike others I like Doom 2 for what it is

 

Oi, you cheeky sod. I love Doom 2. I've played it much more than Doom 1. I just don't like Downtown! ;^) :^P

[Phobus]

I've written recently that navigation is a very underrated skill in Doom. I think this is a perfect example of that being the case, as the OP clearly can't handle the simple exploration that a non-signposted layout requires, instead running about impatiently, frustrated that progression isn't handed to them.

 

I get that this isn't the 90s, and standards have changed, but Doom was just as revolutionary for it's open-ended environments (that weren't just blocky mazes) as it was for it's height variation, atmosphere and fast-paced action. If you're "in to Doom" and want to beat the IWADs and any of the major 90s map sets, you'll need to embrace that aspect of it, too.

 

 

Or, to put it in simple terms: The map doesn't suck, you just suck at the game.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Phobus

[PeterMoro]

Suburbs is the best!!!! Love the spacious setting, non-lineararity and the gargoyle face secret.

[Kirber]

thanks for clarity
just so you know i've played this game before and ALSO didn't have fun because these half-way-point levels were just confusing to me
there were like doors that were tiny as heck and running around i didn't notice them
and the mod has nothing to do with maps sooo um...
i also don't understand why they couldn't have made textures that arent bricks, brown bricks, and a black window with a windowsill
i have nothing wrong with doom 2 it's just that some of the levels are just seriously confusing to me
i overall prefer doom 1 but doom 2's first levels are some of my favourites

Edited June 26, 2020 by Kirber

[Test Tickle]

Suburbs is arguably the best one

[Doom-X-Machina]

Am I the only one who hates Suburbs?