Combining iWads maps into a big one?

[iddqdidkfa]

I played the Memorial wad several years ago (yeah the one with annoying Metallica music up to map 5 i think), this wad combines all Doom 2 maps into one by cleverly connecting them in cute ways, i was wondering if anyone has thought of making a map that combines all Doom 1 five chapters, Doom2 + Master levels, Ultimate maps into one huge map?, i know it would require a new "Doom port engine" to well allow way over 20.000 thousand monsters, and a few music "faders" between levels and just general ways so if you shoot you wont wake up monsters in other levels etc...

Is it possible?, if so how would you do this?, maybe you could "theoretically" use auto generated sections to connect maps to the next map?, maybe this could be a new way of having ALL Doom existing wads combined, both iWads and community wads?.

I think it would be nice for instance that in DOOM 1 when you finish a level you can either transport yourself in a subterranean train or something or just walk over mars (from one building to the next in huge open spaces), the same in Shores of Hell or Inferno. Why not in Doom 2?, maybe someone can make creative ways those maps are connected and such.

Just dreaming, is it possible?.

I know that you cant tamper with original iWads maps as they are intellectual ID property, but i wonder: IS IT POSSIBLE?.

Edited July 8, 2020 by iddqdidkfa

[Nevander]

I don't know if it's possible, doubtful since it would essentially be Memorial by a factor of three, but if it were, I don't know if anyone would be insane enough to try doing it. Memorial was already a huge task, now imagine that two more times. That's more line actions, tags, and things that I care to attempt to comprehend for one map.

[Doomkid]

It's definitely possible, assuming the more modern ports can handle like 10,000 tagged sectors. Which they probably can't, so maybe not.

 

My real question is, why the heck would anyone want to do this? Memorial was a fun one-time deal for that huge ZDaemon session - or maybe there's been a few - but even then it actually sucked because most players would just start from the start and be a mile behind the action, even when things to help advance players were implemented. I think there were a tiny handful of tag errors that prevented progression in some spots.. I distinctly remember everyone getting stuck on Nirvana. All it takes is one fuckup when converting tags and keyed doors and bam, the whole darn set is destroyed. It's really no wonder no one wants to do it.

[Dark Pulse]

The Doom:ONE project did exactly this for the original game, so I don't see why it'd be impossible.

 

Impractical, probably... but not impossible.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Dark Pulse

[VanaheimRanger]

I wonder if it would be possible to do it the way the Half-Life games did, where the seperate maps are still seperate, but have a transitional loading area between them.  Moving straight from one map to the next without an intermission screen almost seamlessly.  Could this be possible with GZDoom or Eternity?

Edited July 8, 2020 by guitardz

[Dark Pulse]

1 minute ago, guitardz said:

I wonder if it would be possible to do it the way the Half-Life games did, where the seperate maps are still seperate, but have a transitional loading area between them.  Moving straight from one map to the next without an intermission screen almost seamlessly.  Could this be possible with GZDoom or Eternity?

Not without making it one map or changing stuff under the hood. The Doom Engine isn't quite written to "stream" levels like that.

 

Hexen-style Hubs are basically the closest you'll get to that.

[Nevander]

7 hours ago, guitardz said:

I wonder if it would be possible to do it the way the Half-Life games did, where the seperate maps are still seperate, but have a transitional loading area between them.  Moving straight from one map to the next without an intermission screen almost seamlessly.  Could this be possible with GZDoom or Eternity?

Yes it would be, however you'd need to edit the levels so that the end of one leads into the start of the next in a hallway like area or lift that is present in both maps, along with either walk over or scripted exits. Then in MAPINFO, you'll need to get rid of cluster texts and then supply each map with the NoIntermission property. Definitely doable.

 

However, returning to previous levels would be tricky. I think for that, you'd need to make every map a hub so they don't reset monsters and also supply each map with actions to go back a map.

Edited July 9, 2020 by Nevander

[Dexiaz]

I was working on such project (still not totally abandoned, because I have an extra idea concept for this), all 100+ maps are not possible to add in UDMF due to physical limitations of the mapping area.

 

Still, no problems with other/older formats. But it will cause problems with texture misalignment, especially for floor/ceiling ones.

 

IMO, adding all maps into 1 map is not suitable. It would be lagging like NUTS1-2-3 did 10 years ago. Still better to make few maps (1 episode = 1 map) to work it right.

 

What about similar tags and linedef actions? Just change it BEFORE copypasting in your big map. Just for sure, every map could count tags from it's level number. I mean, e1m1/map01 = 101, 102, 103, e1m2/map02 = 201, 202, 203, ... etc. That's also why it's better to make few maps, because I'm not sure it's possible to make sector tags over 1000.

[Xaser]

I've never understood the appeal of this "stitch all IWAD maps into one" concept -- at least, not the way projects like Doom:ONE approach it. If you take all the IWAD maps and connect them end-to-end so the exit to one map connects to the entrance of the next, then what you end up with is the exact same damn thing as the original episode. You're still playing the same maps, in the same order, with no actual changes to anything at all* except it loads slower and co-op respawns suck. There's nothing to be gained by doing this.

 

That is, unless, one takes it a step further and also adds in some sort of cool thing you couldn't do if the maps were separate Maybe they're connected non-linearly, and you need to revisit levels in order to progress forward. Maybe the rooms of each map are intertwined with each other to make some sort of super-collage. Maybe you can see E1M2's outdoor area from E1M1's, and get little glimpses of each map as if it's one big structure. Or maybe even the classic "walk across the mars surface" idea might be interesting if you can actually see all the other maps off in the distance. And so on and so forth -- there's definitely ways to make the idea work, so long as there's a reason why everything's combined other than "just because."

 

...though even in most of those cases, you're probably best off making a hub. :P

 

[*For the record, Doom:ONE does make a ton of other changes, but it's still a super-linear affair that doesn't make use of its central premise in any meaningful way.]

[Gez]

3 hours ago, Deⓧiaz said:

all 100+ maps are not possible to add in UDMF due to physical limitations of the mapping area.

 

Still, no problems with other/older formats.

Eh?

 

UDMF was designed to have less limitations than the old binary formats.

[Dexiaz]

5 minutes ago, Gez said:

Eh?

 

UDMF was designed to have less limitations than the old binary formats.

 

But ok, you could add the whole Doom 1 IWAD here, without Sigil. But not Doom1+Doom2+BothFinalDoom

Edited July 9, 2020 by Deⓧiaz

[Gez]

I figure this is the editor restricting the grid to what's compatible with nodebuilders, and perhaps this grid restriction is not implemented for the binary formats because they didn't think to implement it for formats that will completely shit the bed long before a map could possibly threaten to be big enough to go outside of the nodebuilder's safe area because there are 16-bit limits on how many vertices, sides, lines, and sectors they can have.

 

 

UDMF doesn't have these limits and can have several trillion vertices with no problems. Well except the problem of your harddrive not having enough space for that.

Edited July 9, 2020 by Gez

[Dexiaz]

Doubt.

 

@Graf Zahl, is @Gez right?

[Gez]

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Vertex

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Node

 

Int16s are used for vertex coordinates.

 

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Thing

 

Int16s are used for thing coordinates.

 

You cannot have anything outside of the boundaries of signed 16 bit integer coordinates. There's just no room to write the extra digits you'd need. UDMF can do it, but then nodebuilders will shit the bed because nodes are still written with 16-bit integer coordinates (extended formats like ZNodes use fixed point, so even if they use 32-bit numbers, the integral part is still limited to 16-bits, the other 16-bits being for fractional).

 

It's pretty simple: ANYTHING you can represent in binary format can be represented in UDMF. Absolutely no exception, no "gotcha", no "actually there's this one thing" here; if binary format can represent it, UDMF can also.

Edited July 9, 2020 by Gez

[Dexiaz]

Ok, got it. I was wrong about this. But still, it's A LIMITATION. You can break it as you say, but it need some extra hard work with this. And it's not good in any sense. And at this point I can't be wrong, as mapper I must not feel any bounds.

[chungy]

(nvm, misunderstood the statement in OP :v)

Edited July 9, 2020 by chungy

[iddqdidkfa]

OH thank you so much for answering, so for a long time i had this (maybe really dumb) idea for a DOOM port called in my brain "Doom Universe" in which all iWads and community wads are organized and "interconnected" in cleaver ways.

What i am trying to say is that it would be Interesting to travel to MARS, which is a HUGE Doom map that reassembles the end screen "map selection" for DOOM 1 5 episodes (Sigil probably happening in Mars hell? instead of earths hell?), what i mean is map E1M1 and E1M2 would be connected trough passages, trains or long allowable areas with monsters all of them, small "connection levels", you could theoretically walk straight to map E1M8 (But you wont have the key to open it), or the mechanism to open that map is yet not available.

So in reality what i would like to see is "reasons" to "backtrack" into already finished maps to complete such "mechanisms", maybe even there could be some interesting  and creative ways to find an entrance to DOOM 2 very early making possible to activate certain teleporter to earth etc. Just thinking out loud, i am sure there can be very interesting gameplay design options on this one.

What i think could be awesome is that at the end "DOOM Universe" also comprise any other Community Wad, or at least those that are popular enough to be given a place in this Port, you could (similarly to DOOM 2 in my idea) find a "secret" place to open a port to PLUTONIA (which if i understand correctly is a MOON right?) where there would also be naturally the Plutonia 2 and Plutonia 3 maps connected etc. The same goes for any other Doom wads, imagine finding a Teleporter to Sunlust somewhere...

The transition between this wads would be seamless either using a portal, traveling in trains, super high speed futuristic conveyors in the back of a ChocoboDemon... Whatever the original Wad team/creator desires for its wad in "Doom Universe".

So this could also mean i guess a new dimension of Online Gameplay, that is you could theoretically make "events" happen and suddenly a Wave of monsters spawn in an area of the map and you need to protect it and clean it, or maybe why not a battle royale with several players all of them starting in different places of the Doom 2 "interconnected" maps payout, with monsters and everything, last man standing wins.

To whoever played Memorial on a server its quite obvious that it is a very cool COOP experience as it is with respawn monsters, you die and then you must move fast trough the levels until you reach the front line fight and dream of being whoever "pressed the switch" or "killed more monsters at the end", i dunno... might be dull but i find it very entertaining at least I do. I remember this time i joined a ZDaemon server with Memorial with like 20 players and it was quite fun, imagine the same thing but with all the original iWads connected, i dont think it has much "repeatability" but i want that experience in my life at some point... walking in Memorial with ALL the monsters killed was also very fun, just walking around, imagine the same thing with creative ways of connecting them and such. I hope its done not necessarily the same naive way i describe it in here but i think it would be amazing to have something like this at some point.

Edited July 9, 2020 by iddqdidkfa

[Doom-X-Machina]

WadSmoosh does something like this yes?

[Dark Pulse]

8 hours ago, Doom-X-Machina said:

WadSmoosh does something like this yes?

WadSmoosh just combines the IWADs into selectable "episodes." What he's looking for is more like "You can go from E1M1 directly to E1M2 without an intermission screen, as if it were one map."

Edited July 11, 2020 by Dark Pulse

[Doom-X-Machina]

3 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

WadSmoosh just combines the IWADs into selectable "episodes." What he's looking for is more like "You can go from E1M1 directly to E1M2 without an intermission screen, as if it were one map."

Ahhh, I see...

[P41R47]

On 7/9/2020 at 8:45 PM, iddqdidkfa said:

OH thank you so much for answering, so for a long time i had this (maybe really dumb) idea for a DOOM port called in my brain "Doom Universe" in which all iWads and community wads are organized and "interconnected" in cleaver ways.

Stuffs...

Cool ideas, but massive task.
Connecting every official iwad Doom map, that would make 132 maps to be loaded at once as one big map, with every monster and decoration.
Sum up all the other worth mentioning megawads... its 132xINFINITE.

It could look really awesome, but i don't think that its worth the effort... at least in this time. Maybe in the future things would be easier to manage.

In the mean time, you could try to make a good gzdoom project that has a hub area and the need to revisit places unlocking them as you advance.

Kinda like Hexen but in Doom.

[AnotherGrunt]

iddqdidkfa:

It's not new idea at all. I think it was Tom Hall originaly (or maybe Romero) who wanted to have one huge world map and simply transition between levels in pressure locks (idea was used later in Doom 3):

 

 

That is where level end look (typical switch) came from. But idea was scrapped.

1. First reason was memory burden. Doom engine doesn't load and frees resources with level beginning and end of level (half of IWAD is loaded into memory even before menu is shown). But instead resources not needed anyomore are marked and replaced on the fly. Doom engine was designed not to touch hard drive (at least not much) and utilize memory as much as possible. Even so, with big level or without level transition you're risking to run out of memory. So, world was spliced into relatively small levels. Problem solved with simple and elegant solution.
2. It defies game logic. As you can see, keys, time (lives and score) were accounted from beginning. But when do you want to show statistics? Three color keys had to be there, but just three colors for entire world map? Again, simple solution: Level transition and intermission screen. It stuck with idSoft games for long time. Quake 3, Doom 3. As far as I know, first engine without traditional levels was idTech 5 (RAGE engine).

You don't have to show intermission screen and simply call G_ExitLevel(), G_DoCompleted() and G_DoLoadLevel(). It will flick into new level very quickly. But it doesn't make sense. With linear level design and intermission screen you know where you're located. It is good. Rid of it? Why?

 

Completing one big IWAD isn't good idea either. You would have to implement IWAD transition. This can't be done without loading so again: why?

[Maximum Matt]

I've had this picture on my computer for ages, can't remember where I got it from:

Someone get onto it

[Dexiaz]

5 hours ago, Maximum Matt said:

Someone get onto it

 

Well, as earlier said, there are Memorial PWADS for both Doom I and Doom II games. I've played both of them about 10 years ago, so I can't say is this screenshot from Memorial or it's an another "Memorial-Clone". But those long inaccurate corridors between levels definitely reminds me Memorial-1.

[3saster]

Why is everyone so obsessed with making everything exactly one map? You could well combine merging maps together with hubs. Put, say, each episode in its own individual map, then combine all the maps together into a hub. Hubs are more like splitting a map into separate data chunks rather completely separating maps. It would also allow you to have paths leading to multiple potential maps easily, so it would work well with the suggested non-linear approach (which is the only real way to make combining all these maps together not rather pointless).

[Dexiaz]

2 hours ago, 3saster said:

Why is everyone so obsessed with making everything exactly one map?

 

Modding challenge? Never heard about this? Making deep water & coloring lighting in DOS Doom, hacking PS1 version to add lost levels, making Doom a straight line shooter, making Doom as "jumping simulator"? Doesn't ring any bells?

 

Modding of any game is not just about "adding more stuff which the original developers wanted to add but declined for technical reasons". It's about everything you could do with the engine. People explore possibilities of everything because that's what people always do.

[kalaeth]

I'll chip in just to say that while a single ALL-DOOM map does not tingle me with emotion, the hub idea does.

One central hub with links to each episode in single map form sounds way more interesting. The keys could get problematic though (or we'd have 6 keys by episode and that's it?).

 

but play testing it would be a PITA.

[Wadmodder Shalton]

Heck, we still haven't seen anybody make a memorial.wad styled approach for TNT Evilution and The Plutonia Experiment.

[Dark Pulse]

On 7/12/2020 at 9:21 PM, Maximum Matt said:

I've had this picture on my computer for ages, can't remember where I got it from:

Someone get onto it

Interesting. Was gonna say "That's Doom:One", but it's clearly not.

 

[iddqdidkfa]

Wish i was smart enough to be capable of doing such a project, i leave you with the Memorial.wad TAS which is awesome to see, i hope one day someone finds a way of making this dream come true not necessarily with hubs (which is also an amazing idea), but interconnected levels in cleaver ways so you can walk with no loadings. I know one day this will be possible, i can even imagine very fun competitions of people 100& all iWads in one take just like this TAS WHO GETS TO THE END FIRST.

BTW anyone knows the reason why memorial doesnt have map 32?
 

 

Edited July 18, 2020 by iddqdidkfa