Is MAP32 of Eviternity supposed to be artistically depressing/miserable?

[random_soldier1337]

I definitely mean it as an artistic choice, not in a "this sucks and the creators should be ashamed" way.

 

I enjoy playing the extremely lengthy map but what with the textures and layout, looking at it over a long time and listening to the particular choice in music composition, and the initial text intro, it's like the designers wanted me to get catharsis by weeping and agonizingly vomiting all at once from some great sorrow that I can't quite put my finger on. It feels like the place was already an obscenely rotting corpse before hell came to desecrate it. I'm just wondering if anyone, esp., if the artists themselves want to comment, want to give more specifics than the nebulous feelings I am speaking of.

Edited August 3, 2020 by random_soldier1337

[kwc]

It's worth mentioning that the midi for the map is an adaptation of a black metal song, which can be a very depressive genre. 
@Dragonfly & @ukiro, this is an intriguing question and now I'm curious, are you able to share anything about the map, communicating abstract things through level design/environment/music?

[Dragonfly]

I'm not at liberty to talk about this map in specific as this is 99% Ukiro's doing with only the most minor tweaks being done on my part. That said, Eviternity as a whole was quite an emotional piece on my part; I was fighting deep-rooted depression and going through the tail end of a failing relationship, eventually leading to the break up with my fiancée at the time.

 

Eviternity was born of me converting a lot of my emotional energy into something productive. For example, MAP25 Slave, I leaned on the depression as an inspiration for the tone & setting with deep blacks and oppressing architecture. In other places I tried to boost my mindset, making happier locales such as MAP27, Heliopolis, with it's much brighter aesthetics and more uplifting midi.

 

Back to MAP32 though, I'm quite glad someone else felt similar things as I did on my first playthrough. I wouldn't have gone as far as to say "catharsis by weeping and agonizingly vomiting all at once from some great sorrow" as the OP puts it; but the drab, dilapidated nature of the location coupled with the monotony of the black metal midi definitely captured where my headspace was at the time, and is probably a large part of why I personally resonate with that map.

 

There were other guest maps which had some level of symbology for me despite my lack of input - Xaser's MAP26, Trancendence, for example felt a lot like a representation of the aforementioned relationship; breaking the chains that bind you to corruption, so that you can ascend to greater things.

 

Sorry for the overly uh, "emo" tone of this post, heh. :)

Edited August 3, 2020 by Dragonfly

[random_soldier1337]

Wow. That explains a lot.

[Starduster]

Perhaps this may help...

• https://www.google.com/search?q=anagnorisis&oq=anagnor&aqs=chrome.0.0j69i57j0l3.5197j0j7&client=ms-android-samsung-ss&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
• https://doom.ukiro.com/2019/03/13/design-notes-on-eviternity-map32-anagnorisis/

[Bauul]

15 hours ago, random_soldier1337 said:

and the initial text intro

 

I wrote the intro text along with Ukiro.  Unlike the 'plot' of the rest of the mapset, the text here is pretty straightforward: it basically just says "This is a really big, non-linear map, and as you explore you'll have lots of "oh I'm HERE!" moments".  That latter point is also what the map name is mostly alluding to.

[ukiro]

The short answer is that I'm generally into introvert, melancholy, dark, and brooding things across music and art. Hence this all comes through in my map design.

 

The longer answer is a bit more complex, and might contain some borderline pretentious over-analysis, so be warned.

 

At the time Doom came out, it had one of the most ominous vibes in any game available. Getting to step into the world of Doom just before I turned 15 back in early 1994 was probably one of the more important formative experiences and has remained a major aesthetic influence in my life.

 

As I mention in the post Starduster links, I had not released a level in 18 years by the time Eviternity came out, and it became very large and complex in part because I wanted the level to be worthy of a comeback after such a long time. But something not mentioned there, perhaps because I hadn't fully articulated this even to myself before: I had a not-entirely-conscious desire to give someone else the feelings I got from Doom back when it came out: A sort of "how can this even exist" awe, and I guess indeed a sort of dread and sense of being overwhelmed, but not just in the slaughtermap sense; it had to emanate from the place it self, from being present there. That sense of place and presence was important to me, and a working title for the level was "Immersion".

 

Most of the fights were added after the architecture was already in place so there wasn't some grand master plan here, but I do know I wanted the beginning and end to be rather oppressive, so that the player would get that overwhelmed dread/awe as the first impression, the one I had when I first fired up E1M1 in early 1994, but for that to give way to a sense of finding one's footing and joy of exploration. From watching what has to approach a hundred play-throughs on Twitch I have a feeling this succeeded at least to some degree. I also wanted the ending to return to that oppressive feeling, closing the circle, but now with the player already so invested in finishing the level that they'd persevere and fight through it. To me there's just less reward if the ending doesn't convey a sense of achievement, especially in a level like this.

 

To recreate the vibe Doom gave off in early 1994 might be a futile goal in this day and age, but at least the level would have to be incredibly intricately designed and grand in scale to even have the slightest chance of evoking that feeling in anyone. So I gave it my all, and I do believe I managed to create a place and gameplay experience that stands out in the history of doom mapping (although I'm sure there are parallels to be drawn to dozens of other maps). That relative uniqueness is appealing to some, and off-putting to others. I kind of knew that'd be the case, so there's a reason my level is one of the secret ones.

 

The music track, while by Blut Aus Nord, isn't truly a black metal song in any real way. They have plenty of proper BM in their discography of course, some of which I relly love, but the idea here wasn't to make any sort of nod to black metal. I simply find Blut Aus Nord's use of rhythm, harmony and repetition to be really unique not just in metal but in music in general, and felt this specific track would be a fittingly forward-thinking and ominous-yet-harmonic soundtrack for my level. I understand the repetition for 1-2 hours of gameplay can be a bit much and that it stands out from the rest of the soundtrack stylistically, but I just wasn't feeling like the other tracks we had available were a fit for my vision of the level. (Even as a kid I mostly played Doom with the music turned off since I felt midi tracks made the mood too chipper.) For people who have only heard the midi rendition, it might be worth giving the original a listen. I think the entire album is just stunning.

 

As for the name "Anagnorisis", I have never publicly given credit where it's due; I learned the word from my fantastic doctor/columnist/writer/weightlifter friend Jona, so thanks to her for that.

[plums]

@ukiro I knew someone would push back against calling that track "black metal" :)

 

Nice write-up, I've said before that it's my favourite map in Eviternity by a large margin, so it's nice to read some more about it.

[random_soldier1337]

3 hours ago, Bauul said:

 

I wrote the intro text along with Ukiro.  Unlike the 'plot' of the rest of the mapset, the text here is pretty straightforward: it basically just says "This is a really big, non-linear map, and as you explore you'll have lots of "oh I'm HERE!" moments".  That latter point is also what the map name is mostly alluding to.

 

Lol. My imagination is acting up too much for whatever reason and I guess I'm reading into it too much.

 

2 hours ago, ukiro said:

The short answer is that I'm generally into introvert, melancholy, dark, and brooding things across music and art. Hence this all comes through in my map design.

 

The longer answer is a bit more complex, and might contain some borderline pretentious over-analysis, so be warned.

 

At the time Doom came out, it had one of the most ominous vibes in any game available. Getting to step into the world of Doom just before I turned 15 back in early 1994 was probably one of the more important formative experiences and has remained a major aesthetic influence in my life.

 

As I mention in the post Starduster links, I had not released a level in 18 years by the time Eviternity came out, and it became very large and complex in part because I wanted the level to be worthy of a comeback after such a long time. But something not mentioned there, perhaps because I hadn't fully articulated this even to myself before: I had a not-entirely-conscious desire to give someone else the feelings I got from Doom back when it came out: A sort of "how can this even exist" awe, and I guess indeed a sort of dread and sense of being overwhelmed, but not just in the slaughtermap sense; it had to emanate from the place it self, from being present there. That sense of place and presence was important to me, and a working title for the level was "Immersion".

 

Most of the fights were added after the architecture was already in place so there wasn't some grand master plan here, but I do know I wanted the beginning and end to be rather oppressive, so that the player would get that overwhelmed dread/awe as the first impression, the one I had when I first fired up E1M1 in early 1994, but for that to give way to a sense of finding one's footing and joy of exploration. From watching what has to approach a hundred play-throughs on Twitch I have a feeling this succeeded at least to some degree. I also wanted the ending to return to that oppressive feeling, closing the circle, but now with the player already so invested in finishing the level that they'd persevere and fight through it. To me there's just less reward if the ending doesn't convey a sense of achievement, especially in a level like this.

 

To recreate the vibe Doom gave off in early 1994 might be a futile goal in this day and age, but at least the level would have to be incredibly intricately designed and grand in scale to even have the slightest chance of evoking that feeling in anyone. So I gave it my all, and I do believe I managed to create a place and gameplay experience that stands out in the history of doom mapping (although I'm sure there are parallels to be drawn to dozens of other maps). That relative uniqueness is appealing to some, and off-putting to others. I kind of knew that'd be the case, so there's a reason my level is one of the secret ones.

 

The music track, while by Blut Aus Nord, isn't truly a black metal song in any real way. They have plenty of proper BM in their discography of course, some of which I relly love, but the idea here wasn't to make any sort of nod to black metal. I simply find Blut Aus Nord's use of rhythm, harmony and repetition to be really unique not just in metal but in music in general, and felt this specific track would be a fittingly forward-thinking and ominous-yet-harmonic soundtrack for my level. I understand the repetition for 1-2 hours of gameplay can be a bit much and that it stands out from the rest of the soundtrack stylistically, but I just wasn't feeling like the other tracks we had available were a fit for my vision of the level. (Even as a kid I mostly played Doom with the music turned off since I felt midi tracks made the mood too chipper.) For people who have only heard the midi rendition, it might be worth giving the original a listen. I think the entire album is just stunning.

 

As for the name "Anagnorisis", I have never publicly given credit where it's due; I learned the word from my fantastic doctor/columnist/writer/weightlifter friend Jona, so thanks to her for that.

 

I'd definitely say you succeeded for whatever another voice chiming in in agreement is worth.

 

It just felt like there was more of a story to tell than just making the atmosphere oppressive. My headcanon felt like there was this high tech advanced civilization that got so obsessed with progressing, everything around them became a colorless, lifeless industrial/electronic object and the rest was just rocks and lava instead of any actual nature. They went so far that they suffered some sort of industrial collapse or ecological catastrophe and now all that remains is the machines mindlessly doing tasks they were assigned, indefinitely without anyone to tell them otherwise. The indecisiveness in the intro felt like it could be referring to their inability to decide between progress at any cost or saving their lives, their technology sprawling without end into a giant incomprehensible mass. Eventually the place became deader than dead or some sort of parody of life with the machines droning on and nothing actually understood as life present. And the monsters their couldn't do anything to make the place worse even if they tried.

 

Sorry about posting all that headcanon.  I've not felt something like this since playing level 8 or 9 of Dark Forces 2 some 20 years ago with it's sprawling dark industrial levels.

Edited August 3, 2020 by random_soldier1337

[ukiro]

I suppose it’s the mark if successful art when it spawns theories like that.
 

I didn’t have anything as explicitly spelled out in my mind, but I guess my choice of textures and designs was meant to at least paint—in broad strokes—a world where that sort of story was plausible. 
 

Thank you :-)

[Daerik]

2 hours ago, ukiro said:

Most of the fights were added after the architecture was already in place so there wasn't some grand master plan here, but I do know I wanted the beginning and end to be rather oppressive, so that the player would get that overwhelmed dread/awe as the first impression, the one I had when I first fired up E1M1 in early 1994, but for that to give way to a sense of finding one's footing and joy of exploration. From watching what has to approach a hundred play-throughs on Twitch I have a feeling this succeeded at least to some degree. I also wanted the ending to return to that oppressive feeling, closing the circle, but now with the player already so invested in finishing the level that they'd persevere and fight through it. To me there's just less reward if the ending doesn't convey a sense of achievement, especially in a level like this.

I distinctly remember saying the combination of level design and feeling perpetually lost alongside the music gave off an oppressive atmosphere. Here's another voice saying you succeeded :)

[A.K.]

I honestly thought MAP32 in Eviternity was just, "The Darkening Part 3" but representing itself as one level.

 

[ukiro]

Perhaps I should point out one more thing: The excessive hand holding, sign posting*, and linearity of a lot of modern games is very off-putting to me as I feel it belittles the player, and more importantly, detracts from that sense of presence I mentioned. But if that's what you're used to (and it occurs in Doom mapping as well), the open-endedness of Anagnorisis—combined with its imposing scale and somewhat bleak visuals—I suppose can invoke a feeling of abandonment as there's no invisible hand to guide you. Abandonment in a place that feels overwhelming, menacing and confusing could certainly give rise to "some great sorrow" as the OP put it.

 

On this topic, I think Ribbiks is the real master of invoking these kinds feelings in his levels, there's something incredibly oppressive and haunting about Magnolia for example.

 

^{*Of course I use some sort of sign posting and (more or less subliminal) guiding design elements as well. Just not super in-your-face.}

Edited August 5, 2020 by ukiro

[Major Arlene]

As a personal note, I love the kind of maps that are dark and brooding such as Anagnorisis (and yes, this is coming from me, I know). Eviternity as a whole evokes feelings of general comfort for me; I've played it often when in periods of stress, anxiety or depression and Anagnorisis, while a bit bleaker-feeling than the rest, does fit the overall mood that Eviternity works hard to achieve. And oddly enough, I find the feeling of being small in a big space like in MAP32 to be actually a little satisfying. Of course, I'm perfectly content to meander in maps for hours if such is required- there aren't many maps that allow for that kind of gameplay (to be fair, Doom wasn't particularly designed for that); as mentioned by ukiro the lack of hand-holding works to MAP32's benefit and allows the player to gain their bearings in their own way and time. I definitely appreciate the care that went into MAP32 (which I expect no less of the person who has worked for over 20 years to bring us OTEX); that sense of awe is something to aspire to.

 

tl;dr I'm a slut for large-scale epic dark maps and pretty textures and ukiro does a good job with both