Would using the cheat codes in classic doom be considered cheating or cheesing?

[Horus]

4 minutes ago, Pseudonaut said:

Since I pistol start just about every map that I play, I find myself using IDCLEV quite frequently

 

It's easier just to press the restart level key

[Pseudonaut]

19 minutes ago, Horus said:

 

It's easier just to press the restart level key

 

Somehow, I didn't know this was a thing in PrBoom+. I just checked and it looks like it's the "Home" key by default. Thanks for bringing it up. I wonder if I'll be able to break the habit.

[eirc]

I think what people miss in their answers is the fact that cheating is always only dependent on the context. It's usually only relevant when there's some competition going on that has specific rules on what's allowed and what's not. If the competition is a level speedrun then obviously warping to it is not only not cheating but required. Similarly saves are not cheats on real time attacks but they are cheats on normal speedruns.

 

In this light when you're playing alone you make up the rules (or lack thereof) so you can say IDDQDIDKFA is not cheating. No one will care. But when you tell someone that you managed to beat a wad, in most communities that implies you didn't use them but still you may or may not have used sporadic saves or even aggressive save-scumming.

 

So yea it's all about context, competitions specifically define what's cheating, communities vaguely imply it, and in solo play you make up the rules.

 

And a thought experiment: say you discover that iddwd also gives you invulnerability and you join a competition that specifically states you cannot use iddqd. You go in, iddwd and walk over everything. They (probably) will allow it for that one time, give you first place and make a rule that iddwd is also not allowed (or get a more general rule to cover such cases). If you come here though and say guys I beat sunder without taking damage without cheats, it's obvious you'll impress noone - apart from the fact you found a new cheat code.

[Chezza]

I want to point out the OP didn't ask if cheating / cheesing is a good or bad thing but many respond as if it was asked. Of course we can play it how we like, assuming it's not affecting other people's games.

 

As for save scumming, I'm on the fence on this one but leaning towards no. If you save because you suspect a potential big battle ahead or want to avoid risk of wasting time, of course it's not cheating (or cheesing). If you save after all encounters, big or small, then I'd say the save function wasn't designed for that excessive use and the player should consider a lower difficulty if lacking the confidence.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Chezza

[Hellektronic]

3 hours ago, Pseudonaut said:

I was with you until idbehold, which is giving you advantages you're not supposed to have. I understand cheating if a map is actually bullshit (which probably isn't the case if you're complaining about rad suits) but it's better to call it what it is. Admittedly, I've used IDDQD and IDKFA just to explore levels for a bit if I expect them to be too hard for me, like some Sunder levels.

 

I don't cheat in any game, to tell ya the truth... it was more just a hypothetical use for the cheats.

 

I'm more the type of person who leaps at a chance for hardship, the type who would deliberately miss secrets just to make an easy Doom map harder or play with keyboard turning instead of mouse turning, lol. Or using fastmonsters, stuff like that. The only cheats I use are for making it harder, hah.

[Gunstar Green]

I think of "cheesing" as exploiting a mechanic or bug, especially one not intended by the developer. "Cheating" is altering the rules of the game in your favor which is what cheat codes do. They're literally called cheat codes.

[Hellektronic]

4 hours ago, Pseudonaut said:

Somehow, I didn't know this was a thing in PrBoom+. I just checked and it looks like it's the "Home" key by default. Thanks for bringing it up. I wonder if I'll be able to break the habit.

 

It's good habit to have, lol... not every port has that.

 

This is wildly off topic, but why do so many people use PrBoom+? I'm honestly curious.

 

51 minutes ago, Chezza said:

As for save scumming, I'm on the fence on this one but leaning towards no. If you save because you suspect a potential big battle ahead or want to avoid risk of wasting time, of course it's not cheating (or cheesing). If you save after all encounters, big or small, then I'd say the save function wasn't designed for that excessive use and the player should consider a lower difficulty if lacking the confidence.

 

I think a lot of people would argue if it's an integral game mechanic, it's technically not even... uh... "cheesing" to use the save system excessively. Me? I don't think it really matters... unless you're trying to show off, challenge yourself, or do a speedrun or something. I actually disable autosaves and do things the oldschool pistol-start if you die way.

[Pseudonaut]

2 minutes ago, Hellektronic said:

This is wildly off topic, but why do so many people use PrBoom+? I'm honestly curious.

 

It's one of the most convenient ports for recording demos, maybe the most convenient, and it's usually the favorite port of speedrunners. That's why it's one of two ports (the other being Crispy Doom) that are specifically recommended on this page: https://www.dsdarchive.com/intro

[Hellektronic]

2 minutes ago, Pseudonaut said:

It's one of the most convenient ports for recording demos, maybe the most convenient, and it's usually the favorite port of speedrunners. That's why it's one of two ports (the other being Crispy Doom) that are specifically recommended on this page: https://www.dsdarchive.com/intro

 

Makes sense, I've seen people use both for speedruns but never really made that connection.

[GarrettChan]

I actually want to ask, if a WAD maker disabled the cheat codes, how do you feel?

[D4NUK1]

32 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

I actually want to ask, if a WAD maker disabled the cheat codes, how do you feel?

It's the same as wad creators that disable the options of jumping. 

 

I understand the rules and play mostly vainilla way. 

 

If a ma was to do advanced mapping or mostly not that vainilla stuff, I play if mods that I like. 

[GarrettChan]

8 minutes ago, jamondemarnatural said:

It's the same as wad creators that disable the options of jumping. 

 

I understand the rules and play mostly vainilla way. 

 

If a ma was to do advanced mapping or mostly not that vainilla stuff, I play if mods that I like. 

 

Well... I'm not going to concern jumping, but it makes sense for MOD or stuff (although I don't play MOD). Disabling cheats is way too far IMO.

[Megalyth]

On 8/19/2020 at 6:50 AM, esselfortium said:

Well, it's not called "using the cheese codes"...

 

mmm, cheese codes...

 

IDPROVOLONE

[Zulk RS]

16 hours ago, Chezza said:

As for save scumming, I'm on the fence on this one but leaning towards no. If you save because you suspect a potential big battle ahead or want to avoid risk of wasting time, of course it's not cheating (or cheesing). If you save after all encounters, big or small, then I'd say the save function wasn't designed for that excessive use and the player should consider a lower difficulty if lacking the confidence.

 

I think it's less about lacking confidence and more about what you enjoy. I like seeing all the encounters the mapper actually planned so I generally default to UV because that seems to be hat most mappers map for. It's not like trying to prove I'm hardcore or I don't know what the thought process of those who play on UV and complain that it's too hard have; it's more like I feel like I'm missing out if I don't play on the difficulty the mapper initially designed around. If I see any map that was tested/intended for HMP while UV is a just a bonus hard mode, I play HMP because then I feel like UV is an extra challenge mode and then I don't feel like I'm missing out. I also find it fun to save scum excessively so that's why I do it.

[Eurisko]

I'm eating a grilled cheat sandwich while reading this.........

[Final Verdict]

Well, they are called cheat codes. Even if we disregard that obvious point it's still cheating.

 

I'm not against it though, it's up to the person. I used to mess around with godmode back in the 90's, but that was more for creating big battles of infighting. So I could watch the chaos unfold. I was young so I was fascinated but monster infighting and would often try to get a big brawl going. I had already completed it on UV so it was just for laughs.

 

As for save scumming, I don't really have a problem with it. I save often myself, especially after a particularly tough battle. If it's after every single battle, or every few seconds, that's a borderline mental disorder in my book.

 

But I still don't really take issue with it, whatever floats your boat as they say.

 

[Doomsday]

I would only ever noclip to get an unobtainable secret or a lost soul that got out of the map due to pain elementals. 

[Grazza]

So "cheesing" basically just means "not being a dumbass". OK...

 

On 8/19/2020 at 7:54 PM, GarrettChan said:

I actually want to ask, if a WAD maker disabled the cheat codes, how do you feel?

For those few wads that do this, I'll just edit the deh to remove that bit. If for some reason I need to use the cheat codes when testing ideas, I don't want to have to remember some silly change in them that is specific to the wad. NOCAPINMYASS, lol.

[GarrettChan]

40 minutes ago, Grazza said:

So "cheesing" basically just means "not being a dumbass". OK...

 

For those few wads that do this, I'll just edit the deh to remove that bit. If for some reason I need to use the cheat codes when testing ideas, I don't want to have to remember some silly change in them that is specific to the wad. NOCAPINMYASS, lol.

Ah, next time I'll know what I can do now! I really hate people disable these in their WADs.

[Grazza]

There's also this bit in the prb+ cfg file that might be of interest:

# Dehacked settings
deh_apply_cheats              0

[DooM Bear]

Definitely cheating.

 

For me “cheesing” is doing “scummy” tactics like the ol’ pop out, shoot, hide, pop out, shoot hide routine or the open close door one.

 

More advanced cheesing might include things like getting enemies stuck, SR40 or SR50ing over gaps you’re not intended to jump over or circle strafing around everything so they all infighting (although I use that last one a lot when playing) etc.

 

Not all cheesing is a bad thing in my mind and is sometimes very useful / almost necessarily in harder WADs :-D

[Biodegradable]

19 hours ago, DooM Bear said:

the open close door one

 

Door-fighting is a legitimate strategy!

[Jello]

I used to cheat constantly when I first started playing Doom. Of course I was around 8 or 9 years old at the time. Eventually I stopped using cheat codes, because they detracted from the carefully orchestrated gameplay of the original .iwads, and most user made .wads. It's funner to play a level as it was balanced to play.

 

However, in the last few years I have noticed that I've become more 'okay' with dropping the difficulty from Ultra Violence to Hurt Me Plenty, which is something I never used to do. But I realized I was missing out on some great levels because I was too proud to drop down from UV. If I can do a level on HMP, then I can always rerun it on UV; but just getting my ass kicked on UV and forgetting about it forever doesn't mean the map isn't good. It means that I'm not prepared for what it's going to throw at me. It was a humbling moment, but I'm glad it happened.

[vanilla_d00m]

Yes...

 

Even if you are just "trying to get out" of something (me because of a bad save) it's still cheating.  I'm still a noob so it happens, a nooblar.  I say the worst kind of cheating is when you freeze all the monsters so you can move around the map freely. 

[seed]

6 hours ago, Jello said:

But I realized I was missing out on some great levels because I was too proud to drop down from UV.

 

Or arrogant I would say instead of "proud".

 

The two are not the same, though people use them like they are sometimes.

Edited August 26, 2020 by seed