Chip Posted August 22, 2020 the title may seem confusing, but what I mean is if Map 31 and 32 from DOOM 2 still are supposed to be Nazi levels. They changed some voice lines and the wall decor for some strange reason (Since Swastika's and Nazi stuff is now allowed in Germany), I always like the feeling of killing Nazi's, but it feels different with the whole change. Are the Schutzstaffel supposed to be weird cult members praising a weird god of theirs, or still Nazi's that just don't enjoy the look of Hitlers stache and his swastika arm? So, what do you think, weird cult or Nazi's that had bad painting skills? Also, below I posted a bunch of pictures from map 31 to look at and observe. Spoiler 1 Quote Share this post Link to post
P41R47 Posted August 22, 2020 i think its to be inclusive, so nazis won't feel bad while playing for killing their own allies. Not that they ddoesn't do it already, but... 2 Quote Share this post Link to post
D4NUK1 Posted August 23, 2020 (edited) From the Doom Wiki.https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Doom_Classic_Unity_port#Doom_II_specific Quote BFG Edition's MAP31: IDKFA and MAP32: Keen has been reverted back to MAP31: Wolfenstein and MAP32: Grosse alongside their respective map music, D_EVIL and D_ULTIMA. The ZWOLF* texture with Nazi iconography (Hitler portraits, swastikas, Reichsadlers, etc.) have been censored. These were initially identical to the versions that appeared in BFG Edition, but have been edited in the January 9, 2020 patch to be closer to the original textures. The BFG Edition versions of textures which had Nazi detailing were the same as undetailed versions of those wall textures. As of the patch, they have instead been restored to the original versions and then edited, replacing swastikas with the triangle logo used in the German version of Wolfenstein: The New Order, while Hitler has lost his toothbrush mustache, making him resemble the Staatmeister from the Super Nintendo version of Wolfenstein 3D. The definitions in TEXTURE1 are identical; it is the patches that have been changed. The Wolfenstein SS (which were effectively removed in BFG Edition) have been restored. As of the January 9 patch, the second half of their sight sound has been redubbed - they now say "schutzkämpfer" instead of "schutzstaffel", the first half still using John Romero's voice while the other half was re-recorded by Mike Rubits of id Software. Their death sounds are as normal. So in a perspective, it's canon in the Wolfestein Alt. Timeline that it's done in the Wolfenstein: New Orden and The New Colossus, at least the German Timeline. Edited August 23, 2020 by jamondemarnatural Offensive Text 2 Quote Share this post Link to post
Gothic Posted August 23, 2020 I think you're taking Easter Eggs too seriously. 14 Quote Share this post Link to post
DNSKILL5 Posted August 23, 2020 It's a censor just to make it legal in Germany. Instead of making a German exclusive patch, they just make it inclusive censorship for everyone to deal with. It makes it easier to release I assume than to have to make a special version for Germany. I guess Germans can't figure out what those images truly represent, so I guess Id is doing their part to keep them safe from scary images (sarcasm) like the German government asks them to. So it's still Wolfenstein 3D, just censored to make the German government feel they've accomplished whatever it is they feel they're accomplishing with such censorship laws in place. My guess is they're not really stopping anyone over there from playing the uncensored versions that want to play them bad enough, and this seems to be the case just about anywhere where censorship and/or banning is enforced. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post
Chip Posted August 23, 2020 @Gerolf The censorship in Germany ended years ago. It is okay to show Nazi stuff in media down there. It is an embarrassing part of history, but one day you just have to accept your mistakes and move on, which they did. 0 Quote Share this post Link to post
DNSKILL5 Posted August 23, 2020 Then there should be zero reason for the censorship if that is the case. 4 Quote Share this post Link to post
NiGHTMARE Posted August 23, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, LiT_gam3r said: @Gerolf The censorship in Germany ended years ago. It is okay to show Nazi stuff in media down there. It is an embarrassing part of history, but one day you just have to accept your mistakes and move on, which they did. Germany wasn't the only country to ban Nazi imagery, though. It's still banned in several countries that were occupied or attacked by Germany during WW2, such as Austria, France, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Russia, Serbia, and Ukraine. Such imagery is also banned in at least one former Axis country, namely Hungary. Edited August 23, 2020 by NiGHTMARE 8 Quote Share this post Link to post
seed Posted August 23, 2020 8 hours ago, Gothic said: I think you're taking Easter Eggs too seriously. Yeah, that's all there is to it, it's not a change meant to alter the continuity, just like the BFG Edition censorship didn't either. 4 Quote Share this post Link to post
ZeroTheEro Posted August 23, 2020 8 hours ago, LiT_gam3r said: @Gerolf The censorship in Germany ended years ago. It is okay to show Nazi stuff in media down there. It is an embarrassing part of history, but one day you just have to accept your mistakes and move on, which they did. ...what are you talking about? The Strafgesetzbuch section 86a is still active, the reason why there's no swastikas is because the usage of such symbols are unconstitutional and games are not in the context of research and teaching. Hence why they changed it. Frankly I rather prefer what the Doom Unity port brought because the BFG Edition-derived secret levels are dull. 4 Quote Share this post Link to post
Gez Posted August 23, 2020 It's in the timeline of Wolfenstein 3D Part II: Rise of the Triad. What did you think the triangle logo referred to? 5 Quote Share this post Link to post
Chip Posted August 23, 2020 XD! Hitler now looks like those redneck grandparents you see in the movies where they tell the children to "Get off my lawn, or else!" 3 Quote Share this post Link to post
cybdmn Posted August 23, 2020 10 hours ago, ZeroTheEro said: ...what are you talking about? The Strafgesetzbuch section 86a is still active, the reason why there's no swastikas is because the usage of such symbols are unconstitutional and games are not in the context of research and teaching. Hence why they changed it. You are wrong, you should read the wikipedia article again. The exeptions include "art or science, research or teaching". Since games could be art, a context which is very broad, there is a change in how games are threatened in germany. Swastikas and stuff in games are not automatically considered unlawful. Instead the USK is in charge here. There are three scenarios, in which the usage of unconstitutional symbols will get their okay, as you can read here: https://www.gameswirtschaft.de/politik/hakenkreuze-in-games-usk-leitlinien/ a differentiated and critical handling of historical events (Example: „Through the Darkest of Times“) purely fictional material with dystopian scenarios (Example: „Wolfenstein: Youngblood“) scenarios debunking ideology (Example: „Southpark“) Thats based on Art. 5 GG (means article 5 of the german constitution), which handles the freedom of speech, art, science, research and teaching. 0 Quote Share this post Link to post
DNSKILL5 Posted August 23, 2020 (edited) It’s dumb regardless. Do you really think people can’t read between the mustache because they don’t live somewhere where the imagery doesn’t have to be censored? If I were living in any of these countries with these bans, I think I’d make a big deal about it instead of idly standing by and letting it happen, but that’s just my opinion. Like I said earlier, these censors don’t actually stop anyone who truly wants to from playing the game without the censorship. I know of German (as well as some of the other countries mentioned earlier with similar bans) Wolf 3D mappers and they didn’t let it stop them then. So to me, if these laws were truly effective, I’m sure there would‘ve been more people protesting these silly laws in their countries by now to the point that these laws wouldn’t exist at all. These laws are nothing more than the government patting themselves on the back for essentially doing nothing to stop ideologies from spreading, but hey they censored the mustache and the swastika so you can’t blame them if neonazis spread across their cities! They’ll still find a way to point the blame at the video games though with or without swastikas and mustaches, but fear not... that’s how it is all over the world! Edited August 23, 2020 by Gerolf 1 Quote Share this post Link to post
ZeroTheEro Posted August 24, 2020 15 hours ago, cybdmn said: You are wrong, you should read the wikipedia article again. The exeptions include "art or science, research or teaching". Since games could be art, a context which is very broad, there is a change in how games are threatened in germany. Swastikas and stuff in games are not automatically considered unlawful. Instead the USK is in charge here. There are three scenarios, in which the usage of unconstitutional symbols will get their okay, as you can read here: https://www.gameswirtschaft.de/politik/hakenkreuze-in-games-usk-leitlinien/ a differentiated and critical handling of historical events (Example: „Through the Darkest of Times“) purely fictional material with dystopian scenarios (Example: „Wolfenstein: Youngblood“) scenarios debunking ideology (Example: „Southpark“) Thats based on Art. 5 GG (means article 5 of the german constitution), which handles the freedom of speech, art, science, research and teaching. Ah, good to know. 0 Quote Share this post Link to post
sponge Posted August 24, 2020 There are no lore implications by this change, it is simply to be completely clear of any concerns in countries that have issues using Nazi imagery. Having the symbol be the same one in the censored Wolf TNO is just a fun easter egg that I thought of when figuring out what we could change it to. While my understanding is the restrictions in Germany have loosened since the original game's release, that doesn't automatically mean we are in the clear to be able to use it without having it be contested, there would definitely be some amount of risk. Wolf 2 and Youngblood still do this. We went with the minimum amount of changes that we could make in order to be comfortable with having it available worldwide. I think it's an improvement over replacing the enemies with the stock Doom pistol enemy, and blanking the original art completely. 5 Quote Share this post Link to post
Dark Pulse Posted August 25, 2020 (edited) On 8/23/2020 at 5:20 PM, cybdmn said: You are wrong, you should read the wikipedia article again. The exeptions include "art or science, research or teaching". Since games could be art, a context which is very broad, there is a change in how games are threatened in germany. Swastikas and stuff in games are not automatically considered unlawful. Instead the USK is in charge here. There are three scenarios, in which the usage of unconstitutional symbols will get their okay, as you can read here: https://www.gameswirtschaft.de/politik/hakenkreuze-in-games-usk-leitlinien/ a differentiated and critical handling of historical events (Example: „Through the Darkest of Times“) purely fictional material with dystopian scenarios (Example: „Wolfenstein: Youngblood“) scenarios debunking ideology (Example: „Southpark“) Thats based on Art. 5 GG (means article 5 of the german constitution), which handles the freedom of speech, art, science, research and teaching. So... Get tied up in German courts for lots of money and lots of time and try to argue a case that "it's art and so should be excluded" that has a good chance of failing, OR Just get rid of some swastikas and Hitler's toothbrush mustache ...Yeah, not hard to see which one will win out most of the time. Edited August 25, 2020 by Dark Pulse 1 Quote Share this post Link to post
cybdmn Posted August 25, 2020 15 hours ago, sponge said: While my understanding is the restrictions in Germany have loosened since the original game's release, that doesn't automatically mean we are in the clear to be able to use it without having it be contested, there would definitely be some amount of risk. Right. There is no automatic rule applied, every game will be judged by its own. 0 Quote Share this post Link to post
cybdmn Posted August 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Dark Pulse said: So... Get tied up in German courts for lots of money and lots of time and try to argue a case that "it's art and so should be excluded" that has a good chance of failing, No. The decision is not made by a court, but instead by the USK, germanys rating board for games. And the question is not "art or not", because even courts have difficulties to differ what art is and what not. They mostly check the context of the usage, and in most cases you will be safe. 0 Quote Share this post Link to post
Dark Pulse Posted August 25, 2020 1 hour ago, cybdmn said: No. The decision is not made by a court, but instead by the USK, germanys rating board for games. And the question is not "art or not", because even courts have difficulties to differ what art is and what not. They mostly check the context of the usage, and in most cases you will be safe. Still easier to play it safe and presume they will, and prepare for that during development, than to assume they won't, only to get caught with your pants down once they do and send you scrambling for whatever new assets you need. 0 Quote Share this post Link to post
cybdmn Posted August 25, 2020 (edited) Or you end putting a lot of effort censoring a version for the german market, while the germans buy the game uncensored elsewhere in the EU. That's what happened to Activision with Soldier of Fortune II. Nobody bought the german version, in fact the german version is a extremely rare collectors item, because it is virtually nowhere to get. On the other hand, chances are high that you get an okay for your uncensored version, just like Zenimax had with Wolfenstein: Youngblood. Oh, and there was a fully localized and censored version of Max Payne, which was put on the famous index just like the uncensored englisch version before it even hit the shelves, so this version was never released. Effort for nothing. At least they used the german localisation for the mobile rerelease of MP, years later. Edited August 25, 2020 by cybdmn 0 Quote Share this post Link to post
Dark Pulse Posted August 25, 2020 8 hours ago, cybdmn said: Or you end putting a lot of effort censoring a version for the german market, while the germans buy the game uncensored elsewhere in the EU. That's what happened to Activision with Soldier of Fortune II. Nobody bought the german version, in fact the german version is a extremely rare collectors item, because it is virtually nowhere to get. On the other hand, chances are high that you get an okay for your uncensored version, just like Zenimax had with Wolfenstein: Youngblood. Oh, and there was a fully localized and censored version of Max Payne, which was put on the famous index just like the uncensored englisch version before it even hit the shelves, so this version was never released. Effort for nothing. At least they used the german localisation for the mobile rerelease of MP, years later. That means that Germans are exploiting a legal loophole then in being able to import an uncensored version. That's probably something their lawmakers should address. A ban on sale is only as good as its enforcement, after all. 0 Quote Share this post Link to post
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.