Should TC's be eligible for Cacowards?

[dylux]

Should TC's be eligible for Cacowards? 

 

Many TC's or partial TC's have won a Cacoward (e.g., Avactor). And I don't support that. Don't get me wrong, some TC's are great games but I feel once the weapons or monsters are altered in any way via a Total Conversion, it ceases to become Doom, therefore disqualifying it to be eligible for a Doom Cacoward. The TC may have the same parameters as Doom, but that's about it. The graphics have changed, thus so has the Doom game.

 

For example, if an author incorporates Duke Nukem switches in a Doom WAD, the WAD now becomes partially Duke Nukem with Doom parameters, or "rules." Perhaps the Cacowards should have a TC catagory on its own.

 

Just because you wrap a papaya in banana peel doesn't make it a banana.

 

Agree or disagree?

 

 

[seed]

Disagree.

 

They should be.

[kalaeth]

2 minutes ago, dylux said:

Just because you wrap a papaya in banana peel doesn't make it a banana.

 

I think TCs are the other way around : you place a papaya peel around a banana and as such it still is a banana (because they run on the same game engine as doom, deep down it's still doom)

 

and yes, I do think TCs should be eligible.

[cybdmn]

Disagree strongly. As long as it uses the Doom engine, it should be rewarded if being great.

[Midnight_00]

The most recent Cacowards seem to only consider TCs that are sufficiently similar to Doom's normal gameplay for the main awards, which seems fine to me. Technically a lot of mapsets which only add a new enemy or two or simply use source port features would end up counting as partial conversions as you described it.

[Biodegradable]

The very spirit of Doom is based around innovation and advancement, therefore really awesome TC's very much embody that spirit. Doom has long since transcended its vanilla base into a greater gaming and design philosophy thanks to the two decades worth of innovation, advancement and creativity of its community. It's something far greater than the sum of its parts nowadays, so to suggest a TC shouldn't be worthy of the Cacoawards is very much missing the point, I feel. 

[Doomkid]

1 hour ago, dylux said:

The graphics have changed, thus so has the Doom game.

The original Doom 1 and Doom 2 levels are just as important to the "soul of doom" as the gameplay, music, sounds and graphics. At the point where you've made new levels, especially ones that don't follow the conventions laid down by the 2 original iwads, it already "ceases to be Doom". How are graphics, sounds or behaviors any different? It would make just as much sense to argue that cacowards should exist only for graphics and sound replacements, really. I can see an argument for these things being different categories, but the Cacowards already do have categories, albeit not that strict. I completely understand only wanting to play new levels if your preference is things that don't change the weapon or monster behaviors, (which mine certainly is not) but I just don't see why the Cacowards should cater specifically to that preference?

 

Anyway the summary of it is that I disagree, mainly on the basis that changing any fundamental part of Doom changes the soul of the game, and that the Cacowards are already essentially a 'competition' for which mods or wads change the soul in the most fun or enjoyable or unique ways. Even a wad with new maps and nothing more has already fundamentally altered the core Doom experience.

Edited September 4, 2020 by Doomkid

[Dark Pulse]

Didn't Action Doom 2 already win some? That's pretty much past-precedent there.

 

To me, there's plenty of space for "Damn, this mapset is amazing with how it stretches the limits of traditional Doom gameplay" along with "Damn, this TC is amazing with how it stretches the limits of the Doom Engine."

 

Both are enjoyable and worthy, they're simply different flavors. Perhaps split it into separate categories (i.e; "Best TC"/"Best Traditional Mapset") so that we're not comparing apples to oranges and so that there's still space for traditional Doom content, but other than that I see no reason to make TCs/advanced mods ineligible.

Edited September 4, 2020 by Dark Pulse

[Gez]

You're nearly two decades too late.

 

The Top 100 WADs on All Time (aka the Retroactive Cacowards For The Years Before Cacowards Existed) awarded several total and partial conversions, including pioneering titles such as Aliens TC, Army of Darkness TC, Batman Doom, Caverns of Darkness, Herian 2, MassMouth 2, Obituary, STRAIN, Void, ZanZan... So since the very beginning, the awards were also for mods that pushed the Doom engine to its limits -- or went even further beyond thanks to source ports.

 

And the Cacowards duly followed suit.

 

Besides what's next? You mention Duke 3D switches; those are just textures. Are textures "rules"? Does that mean you wouldn't want levels with custom textures to win awards either? I suppose custom music should be banned too, and obviously any sort of source port requirement is out of question. And, really, if you think about it -- isn't replacing the levels also altering the purity of the game? If I start E1M1 and there isn't a recessed pit of blue carpet in front of me and a bartisan with a green armor on the left, it ceases to be Doom and therefore should be disqualified from the Cacowards.

 

As a result I motion that the Cacowards and Top 100 be stricken from history, and instead replaced with awarding DOOM.WAD and DOOM2.WAD every year.

[Xerenogan]

I also disagree. Saying that someone's hard work is ineligible for recognition because they changed it too much seems absurd to me.

[dylux]

10 minutes ago, Gez said:

 

 

Besides what's next? You mention Duke 3D switches; those are just textures. Are textures "rules"? Does that mean you wouldn't want levels with custom textures to win awards either? I suppose custom music should be banned too, and obviously any sort of source port requirement is out of question. And, really, if you think about it -- isn't replacing the levels also altering the purity of the game? If I start E1M1 and there isn't a recessed pit of blue carpet in front of me and a bartisan with a green armor on the left, it ceases to be Doom and therefore should be disqualified from the Cacowards.

 

Very solid argument. Best so far. Thanks for your input! :)

 

 

[Toilet_Wine_Connoisseur]

the more you change and the more risks you take with those changes the better. The whole point of the doom engine being so open to being toyed with is to make it as unlike the narrow scope of the base game as possible.

 

 

[P41R47]

Strongly disagree from the deep bottom of my rotting soul!

Using the Doom engine to make something far different than Doom is the foremost reason moding started.

 

Its like @kalaeth said, if you are still using the doom engine its doom in its core.

Also by saying that TC are inelegible you are forgotten about Doom 64, prerty much a partial conversion.

 

have you tried REKKR? if not, please try it.

Its soo different but still so Doom in its core that you can't simply ignore it. All the aknowledge through all these years reunited on a single project, showing what can be done with patience and passion.

Its the high pinacle of Doom mapping and moding.

[Big Ol Billy]

Changing stuff about the game *is* being true to the spirit of the game, that's what Doom is all about for me tbh

[RonnieJamesDiner]

Yes, they should be eligible.

 

Not liking partial/total conversion mods is not the same thing as conversion mods not deserving recognition in the same arena as everything else. The Cacoward team probably has enough trouble picking a handful of winners out of dozens (if not hundreds) of releases every year, without saddling them with having to define the weird abstraction of "What Is Doom(?)" (though I'm sure they fight over this in their own way). Cacowards go to Doom mods; it's clean and simple and it works.

 

As an alternative, you're more than welcome to start an annual "IWAD Resources Only" award, if you're genuinely passionate about highlighting those kinds of releases. I'm sure the thread(s) would gain traction and popularity, if done well.

 

 

Edited September 4, 2020 by RonnieJamesDiner

[Hellektronic]

Hm... perhaps it would be good to visibly note somehow whenever wads use heavily modified things, so that people know right off the bat that it uses new weapons or enemies.

 

A lot of people do look to the cacowards to find good wads... but you know, not everyone is really looking for a zany nuanced TC that makes all imps into recolored Hexen monsters or something. Maybe that would be more reasonable than making TCs ineligible for awards. *shrugs* Just for discussion's sake.

 

 

[Gez]

The cacowards articles are pretty clear about that. They even come with screenshots!

[RonnieJamesDiner]

1 hour ago, Hellektronic said:

Hm... perhaps it would be good to visibly note somehow whenever wads use heavily modified things, so that people know right off the bat that it uses new weapons or enemies.

 

As far as I'm concerned, that's solely on the WAD author and how they choose to advertise their project, and what information they do/do not include in the text file. It's not really the Cacowards' job. I get where you're coming from, but again, I don't think the Cacoward write-up is supposed to act in place of the forum post/text file.

Edited September 4, 2020 by RonnieJamesDiner

[AtticTelephone]

I believe that TCs should get Cacowards, since they're just Doom, but in a different style, still having the core features of Doom. Also, I recently played Army of Darkness TC, and I think it needs a genuine Cacoward, even if it's like... 23 years old.

[Redneckerz]

Obvious disagree. TC's are practically new games in terms of atmosphere, but megawads, in a way, can be considered new games aswell, just that they appear in the Doom universe. Atleast that's how i view a megawad. As a completely unofficial side game in the Doom universe.

 

Standalone mods, TC's, new mapping tricks: Cacowards celebrates a many thing.

[Kokoro Hane]

Honestly, I feel TCs should remain eligible. I don't mind the idea of them getting their own category, but to say they can't be eligible seems a bit unfair to me. I think it's amazing how far Doom has come, and what can be done with it. So things like TCs or partial TCs definitely deserve their spot in the sun, after all, they're really cool!

[Cruduxy Pegg]

TC is very faithful to original : Why not just play the original game?!

TC modifies shit instead of being a port over : The fuck you ruined it. Why do modders always think they are better than ReAl devs?

TC does fuck all and doesn't deserve downloading : All TCs are garbage.

 

[MFG38]

If it's a .wad or .pk3 file and runs in an engine made to run Doom, it's eligible for a Cacoward in my book.

[Pirx]

5 hours ago, kalaeth said:

 

I think TCs are the other way around : you place a papaya peel around a banana and as such it still is a banana (because they run on the same game engine as doom, deep down it's still doom)

 

and yes, I do think TCs should be eligible.

 

 

it's a babaya.

 

and as long as it runs on the doom engine, it's doom. or should one count how many graphics were replaced? are tcs with up to 10 replaced graphics (sprites, flats, textures, whatever) more eligible than tcs with 20 or more graphics replaced? that's making it confusing when it's not. avactor for example is still easy to recognize as a doom mod.

[Gothic]

If it's on the Doom engine (and more recently, Doom 3 engine) then it's eligible.

[⇛Marnetmar⇛]

Making new assets, programming new mechanics and designing new maps with those assets and mechanics in mind for a TC is something that requires a ton more appreciation and dedication to Doom than the vast majority of people who make custom content for Doom have. To say that kind of effort and dedication should be disqualifying in and of itself is a slap in the face to anybody with any kind of sense.

Edited September 4, 2020 by Marn

[dylux]

3 hours ago, P41R47 said:

Strongly disagree from the deep bottom of my rotting soul!

 

have you tried REKKR? if not, please try it.

Its soo different but still so Doom in its core that you can't simply ignore it. All the aknowledge through all these years reunited on a single project, showing what can be done with patience and passion.

Its the high pinacle of Doom mapping and moding.

 

LMAO!! @ "Strongly disagree from the deep bottom of my rotting soul!"

 

I have not tried REKKR but it is on my to do list.

 

[dylux]

Some people are under the impression that I do not like TC's and that I think TC's are trash. That is soooo not the case. I DO like some TC's as long as they are not "jokester" WADS. Avactor is a sensational WAD and both BTSX's are my absolute faves. And I agree that some TC's are and can be an improvement over the "normal" or mainstream Doom WAD. I also agree that an author's imagination is endless in his or her design.

 

The consensus appears to be that as long as you utilize the Doom engine, then everything is fair game.

 

I'm just saying that once you change the textures, modify the weapons, add new monsters, etc., then the TC no longer is DOOM. It's a conversion. Even says so in the "TC" name.

 

If you convert a priest into a warrior in a role playing game (assuming the priest loses all his spells), for example, is he still a priest even though he's human like the warrior? No he's not. He's been converted... 

 

Evidently, I am alone in this. LOL!!

 

Thanks for keeping the name calling out of this. I have posted threads before where immature people would call me names just because they disagree. We're all adults here and forums are for fun discussion and information.

 

I appreciate everyone's input. Keep them coming!! You guys make very valid points.

 

 

Edited September 4, 2020 by dylux

[Roebloz]

Maybe have a section of the Cacowards that are exclusively for TCs would be good since then people that make regular WADs would still be rewarded for their efforts and vice-versa.

[NuMetalManiak]

Yeah I think this is a very strange question since TCs have been eligible for fame ever since Doomworld was a thing and there's no real reason to stop it.