Should TC's be eligible for Cacowards?

[Linguica]

We had this dilemma in 2018 for Total Chaos, which people liked a lot but which was so, so different from Doom that we weren't sure what to do with it - it was basically a brand new game that happened to use the GZDoom engine. So we invented an award for that exact scenario called, and I quote, "The Spaceship of Theseus - A noteworthy project that has become so removed from Doom that we're not even sure what to consider it." So that kind of marks the outer limits of what we consider awardable.

[AtticTelephone]

38 minutes ago, Linguica said:

We had this dilemma in 2018 for Total Chaos, which people liked a lot but which was so, so different from Doom that we weren't sure what to do with it - it was basically a brand new game that happened to use the GZDoom engine. So we invented an award for that exact scenario called, and I quote, "The Spaceship of Theseus - A noteworthy project that has become so removed from Doom that we're not even sure what to consider it." So that kind of marks the outer limits of what we consider awardable.

Hey, did AoD TC get a Cacoward before? Oh, and also, I think those types of TC's are cool experiments.

[OliveTree]

this seems like a bizarre reason to make a distinction. at what point does it lose its doominess? it feels like a weird avenue to go down to me

[Chip]

11 hours ago, dylux said:

Just because you wrap a papaya in banana peel doesn't make it a banana.

... but it makes it eligible for a cacoward

[M_W]

What decade was this thread posted?

But let's get to the important matter at hand: is a hotdog a sandwich?

[AtticTelephone]

1 hour ago, M_W said:

is a hotdog a sandwich?

No, that doesn't make sense.

[M_W]

Just now, AtticTelephone said:

No, that doesn't make sense.

Then, by definition, neither is a Philly Cheesesteak.

[Doomkid]

They’re both subs, a sub category of sandwiches (ba dum tish)

I kinda do like the idea of a “best purely vanilla assets” category, but there are just so few wads that fit that bill. Even some of the most OS, authentic-style wads out there use a handful of custom textures or a new sprite or two. I wouldn’t want to deter modders from using custom assets either, but this category possibly would, and limiting horizons is pretty much the opposite of what we should be aiming for with awards, just imo.
 

For personal reasons though I’d love to have a direct curated list of wads that stay within “normal Doomy” confines, but for the sake of cacowards I just don’t think it would work.

Edited September 5, 2020 by Doomkid

[Weird Sandwich]

Doom II is a TC of Doom 1 since it adds new monsters and a weapon, completely changing the gameplay. Therefore only Ultimate Doom mods should be eligible for Cacowards.

 

 

Spoiler

Seriously though, custom WAD's are by definition already changing the gameplay of Doom even if using all vanilla assets, as others have already pointed out. So it seems a bit silly to rule out TC's for adding new monsters or graphics or whatever. I'll trust the judgement of the Cacowards writers for what is considered "Doomy" enough for a normal Cacoward vs a Spaceship of Theseus Cacoward.

 

Edited September 5, 2020 by Weird Sandwich

[M_W]

34 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

They’re both subs, a sub category of sandwiches (ba dum tish)

I see you are a man of culture as well.

[Biodegradable]

On 9/5/2020 at 5:43 AM, dylux said:

Thanks for keeping the name calling out of this. I have posted threads before where immature people would call me names just because they disagree. We're all adults here and forums are for fun discussion and information.

 

Yeah don't worry, we're all adults here... or at least, most of us try to be lmao. We do our best to meet any contentious opinion half-way and only dunk on those who clearly only post to stir shit up. I think your question was reasonably phrased and you've been a good sport about it, mate.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Biodegradable

[Hellektronic]

23 hours ago, Gez said:

The cacowards articles are pretty clear about that. They even come with screenshots!

 

Not every article is clear about the details.

 

I've also had experiences where the wad advertised in the award doesn't represent the version available on the link, like it's not even the same wad anymore. *shrugs* Never hurts to look for ways to improve.

 

[Major Arlene]

Hi there!

Speaking as both a Cacoward "judge" and someone closely following a few Doom TCs, my answer is yes. TCs do take a lot of effort but they're still very much Doom- hell, the amount of finagling with the graphics, weapons, monsters, etc.- not just the maps- deserve just as much to be awarded as maps do. There is a level of care that is taken a step beyond with TC's, this is true. But I've also seen Doom maps using vanilla assets/weapons/monsters that were crafted with the same amount of care and compassion- so long as you're willing to do the work, you can stand side-by-side with TC's, as far as I'm concerned.

[dylux]

On 9/5/2020 at 8:55 PM, Major Arlene said:

Hi there!

Speaking as both a Cacoward "judge" and someone closely following a few Doom TCs, my answer is yes. TCs do take a lot of effort but they're still very much Doom- hell, the amount of finagling with the graphics, weapons, monsters, etc.- not just the maps- deserve just as much to be awarded as maps do. There is a level of care that is taken a step beyond with TC's, this is true. But I've also seen Doom maps using vanilla assets/weapons/monsters that were crafted with the same amount of care and compassion- so long as you're willing to do the work, you can stand side-by-side with TC's, as far as I'm concerned.

 

Very valid points. Thank you!

 

[Antkibo]

There's Doom, the game, and Doom, the engine. id released two sets of maps, made on the Doom engine, as Doom and Doom II. Each was made with a particular 'playstyle' on mind, whether deliberately or not. But that was not all that could be done; Eternal Doom, for example, is an old WAD with a radically different approach that sets it apart from the official maps and even most WADs nowadays.

 

id, when developing a fourth episode for the Ultimate Doom, decided to add a new sky to make Thy Flesh Consumed stand out. That sky was a new texture and, as such, not from Doom, the game. But the Doom engine has always made possible to add new textures - it's part of its identity.

 

TCs are an extension of these two points, and they are awesome.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Antkibo