The 128 kb mapping extragavanza "challenge"*

[Chris Hansen]

@Iacobus' map is right up my alley in terms of looks and progression! The layout is great and the progression is perfectly logical to me. I don't mind puzzle elements or to scrath my head from time to time wondering what to do next. The fact that there's some element of exploration in a level this relatively small is big plus in my book! Other than that I want to mirror everything @BoxY said. That was all spot on.

 

In general for this project I would suggest people remember the following when making a map:

 

- Demons and Spectres that can't run around freely or placed on ledges are boring ammo sponges. They offer very little threat and become essentially useless.

- Placing ammo and health in front of switches is not a bad thing,  but most players don't like it. Like for instance in @BoxY's map I had 191 cells and there was a big cell charge right in front of a switch that I couldn't avoid picking up.

[BoxY]

Just now, Chris Hansen said:

Like for instance in @BoxY's map I had 191 cells and there was a big cell charge right in front of a switch that I couldn't avoid picking up.

 

Crap, I hate that too and I thought I remembered to move all the pickups away but I still missed some. Should have mentioned earlier, will be fixed. :)

[Roebloz]

Hey sorry about that @Walter confetti but I actually meant E2M5, not E2M4. Whoops.

[Fryuko]

I might have to fix some stuff later, but I'm pretty much done with my level. 
Name: Blood Red Bath Bomb ( I Can change it if it's too weird)
Slot: E1M1 (currently)
Difficulty settings are not yet implemented.
Blood Red Bath Bomb

[maxresdefault]

Customs (version Penultimate)
-Added difficulty
-Added a second secret (hopefully will be less cryptic)
-Minor lighting and texture work
-Some other minor adjustements (thanks Chris for showing me where I can save kilobytes)
The final version will be when the level placements are decided - I'll change the entrance and exit to match with the levels before and after this one (because I like it when megawads do that)

@Walter confetti can I do another E1 map?

customs vp.rar

[Walter confetti]

Cool! I'll add it to the OP map list.

 

And played Fryuko map right now, is a pretty thought map, maybe is too stingy on health placement, also join these door bars here.

Overall, no other bugs found out so far...

 

Sure @maxresdefault you've got it!

Edited September 18, 2020 by Walter confetti

[magicsofa]

I would like E1 slot plz

[Iacobus]

13 hours ago, BoxY said:

 

Overall it's a good start but needs several rounds of balancing, particularly I suggest doing multiple full runs in a row and making sure that it's consistently possible to get 100% kills and exit on UV without getting any secrets, because exiting a map with few or no secrets is a common experience for many players.

 

Edit: played through the level with iddqd and no secrets just to check if killing the cyber is possible on UV, it is if he infights every baron, but I had to finish him off with the shotgun, and 100% kills is not viable without punching a lot of enemies.

 

Thanks for the thoughtful feedback, @BoxY! I agree with mostly everything and will be implementing on the next iteration!

I placed the Berserk in front of the teleporter as a hint that it would be extremelly necessary from that point on (specially if you don't have the Rocket Launcher) and also to offer the player full health before a no turning back point. Ammo conservation, target prioritization, triggering infights, routing maps according to ammo/weapon/health availability, these are all things I love to implement but it's really difficulty to ,first, find a good balance in a way that is intuitive, and second, please players that just want to tear through the map and kill everything in sight. The optimal strategy is to avoid the pinkies until you have the Berserk (should've hinted visually) and avoid hanging around the caged imps until you have enough shells. In the last fight, it's possible to consistently clean room only using Berserk fists to keep the Pinkies at bay while the Cyberdemon kills everything, but not having the Plasma mandatory for that area was a huge oversight. Upon a second thought though, it is a really bad call on my part since it's an one off map in a bigger project with other authors and I can't simply easy the players in the gameplay style, since it's in the last episode. I'll be rebalancing everthing for a more traditional playstyle and I hope to count on you to make sure is proper!

 

11 hours ago, Walter confetti said:

Here's a pair of FDAs for Iacobus map: fda-walt-th128_alpha.zip (used prboom-plus 2.51.7um, complevel 9)

 

my suggestions for the map are the same of Boxy, plus some other thing i have to say is to give the berserk pack earlier, remove some vertices and some "useless" details like the the metal bars at the hallway left to the starting room, join the sectors that have the same effects, light and type and you'll remove a lot of space taken in kylobites. Overall, really great map given the limitations!

 

 

Thanks for the demo, @Walter!
Judging by the player movement, it seems you play in a vanilla setup. That'll help immensely since I'm a total cheater that can't play without freelook anymore! :p
There's a point in one of the demos where I think it gets out of 'sync' and the player starts homping on walls, so I couldn't see it past the Yellow skull area. Is there a more convinient way to watch demos other than running it on PrBoom?

 

11 hours ago, Chris Hansen said:

@Iacobus' map is right up my alley in terms of looks and progression! The layout is great and the progression is perfectly logical to me. I don't mind puzzle elements or to scrath my head from time to time wondering what to do next. The fact that there's some element of exploration in a level this relatively small is big plus in my book! Other than that I want to mirror everything @BoxY said. That was all spot on.

 

Thanks, @Chris Hansen!  Yes, I agree, I think he hit all the nails there. If you have any tips/suggestions to improve gameplay and geometry (both in terms of look and filesize management) please let me know!

 

 

Changes for the Beta version:

 

- Fix texturing and reduce filesize down to 128k;
- Make lifts more obvious;
- Bring the Plasma Rifle to the main route (inside the room by the Red Key?);
- Ensure the player has the Rocket Launcher prior to the last room;
- Fix issues with the decorations (I thought it could be something on my end so I wanted to test)
- Decrease lava damage;
- Proper balancing and placement of monsters/pickups according to feedbacks;
- Watching Walter's recorded demo gave me a pretty good idea of how players will interact with the level for the first time and it's clear that the stinginess will cause way more frustration than improve gameplay in this particular map, so I'll be rebalancing ammo/health so it's possible to clean every room if the player chooses so.

 

 

Thanks again for all the feedbacks!

[Super Mighty G]

Put me down for an E4 map. 

[Iacobus]

On 9/17/2020 at 2:37 PM, BoxY said:

Anyway, beta 2 is now out here: Download (126 kb) Slot: E4M1

 

Changes

-now tested and working in GZDoom 4.4.1. The platform arena feels a bit harder in GZDoom, probably because I'm not used to its silly player acceleration physics

-(rudimentary) difficulty settings implemented, HNTR is forgiving, UV is harder now, HMP is a slightly nerfed UV

-exit room tele now correctly puts the player at spawn allowing for proper backtracking

-added co-op starts (no co-op balance though)

-secret switch slightly more hidden and does not appear on automap, still quite obvious

-monster count and difficulty on UV slightly increased in most areas

-small fixes in monster placement

-buffed secret fight

-buffed end fight a bit

-health and ammo balance improved a bit

-you can now reset your green armour before the cross arena

-several small texture and lighting fixes

 

 

I couldn't notice the difference in difficulty from beta01 to beta02, but both were very solid for me gameplay wise. Apart from the starting area that can be exploited (with armour and weaponry at your disposal, I would move it to inside the arena) I wouldn't change anything myself. I couldn't find any secrets yet, mainly because the map incentivizes action way more than exploration. Really liked the midi choice, the geometry and the lighting!

 

Here's a no Plasma Rifle attempt  128_bx_02.zip (GLBOOM), I would've not died there if it was GZDoom, the projectile velocity threw me off!

[Roebloz]

Here's some screenshots of E2M5 for everyone to see. Also the secret exit won't be a pain if you pay attention. (I only play in GZDoom out of convenience, and I prefer my Dooming in widescreen support, thank you.

[BoxY]

5 hours ago, Iacobus said:

 Here's a no Plasma Rifle attempt  128_bx_02.zip (GLBOOM), I would've not died there if it was GZDoom, the projectile velocity threw me off!

 

Awesome demo, I learned a lot about different possibilities for playing the map, and your patience with the cacos and barons was legendary, the major reason I made plasma the main weapon was because I can never be bothered to shotgun them all. Definitely a cool strat for the first room and I consider it a reasonable way to play out that fight (looks much harder than just jumping down honestly), however I'll be changing geometry a bit to make it harder to camp the entrance of the cross arena in final release. Well played, and nice 2 hp clutch in the middle. The main reason I put the shotgun and chaingun in the start room was just so the player couldn't get screwed by auto switch on a pickup while fighting, but I'll experiment with different placements, chaingun could definitely be moved because it's the only one. Seeing you miss the secret by a few inches was frustrating :P

 

Makes me think the map is definitely possible pacifist, but it would probably require some legendary monster manipulation in the end room to clear space and get the mm killed.

 

I'll have another go at recording your map when next revision is out, but it won't be as interesting as this :)

[Iacobus]

On 9/17/2020 at 12:28 PM, SilverMiner said:

I've just made a small map --> Metabolism by SilverMiner.zip

Targeting for E2M9 slot and E2M9 music

Added only one texture for a technical purpose (you can find it in TEXTURE2 lump)

 

 

I can run your map np in GZDoom, but I'm trying to record a demo in GlDoom and it gives a error msg about the sky texture. Any idea how I can fix this?

 

Edit: I just removed 'TEXTURE2' in order to record the demos.  METABOLISM.zip

 

   The map is super fun to play and makes me want to make a full megawad called "Pocket-size Doom", if it ain't a thing already lol
   I have a few issues with it though: One is that the Pinkies always gather and get stuck in the geometry by the Blue key and prevent you from entering the next room. I would make it a drop pit and have the lift to the right bring you up from the pit instead of drop you down from a ledge. Another one is the amount of sargents in that area, which just incentivizes the player to camp at the back room to pick them off, I would switch the side ones for imps. I also think that there're too many health pickups in UV for such a small map which completely nullifies the challenge, the line of threes could easily be just one and maybe have a Megasphere secret at the start.

Edited September 19, 2020 by Iacobus

[Roebloz]

On 9/17/2020 at 11:28 AM, SilverMiner said:

I've just made a small map --> Metabolism by SilverMiner.zip

Targeting for E2M9 slot and E2M9 music

Added only one texture for a technical purpose (you can find it in TEXTURE2 lump)

 

Remember you're going from a "hidden laboratory that has a secret elevator behind a giant box" kind of map to this.

[Chris Hansen]

On 9/18/2020 at 9:40 PM, Fryuko said:

I might have to fix some stuff later, but I'm pretty much done with my level. 
Name: Blood Red Bath Bomb ( I Can change it if it's too weird)
Slot: E1M1 (currently)
Difficulty settings are not yet implemented.
Blood Red Bath Bomb

Very nice map! I don't have that many comments for it as seems to be pretty polished and solid. Played on HMP. The only issues I noticed was that the beginning was very stingy because of the lack of armor and the excellently placed opposition. Those Sergeants lurking around every corner really can be nasty if you're not careful. I found the blue armor secret and that helped a lot. I did take a couple of cheap hits though when I entered the secret area from the ledge above to the left. But it's no biggy. My biggest complaint is probably the final fight. There's simply not enough room for all those demons to move around and sheer amount of them caused them to block each other and was easy enough for me to blast to bits from a safe position down the hallway. Afterwards there's a ton of ammo lying around that I didn't have any use for. The Barons posed very little threat. The exit caught me by surprise as I wasn't expecting the door to act as a switch. That should be changed imho. All in all I very much enjoyed this map. It looks good and the layout is nicely connected with a logical progression.

[Fryuko]

16 minutes ago, Chris Hansen said:

Very nice map! I don't have that many comments for it as seems to be pretty polished and solid. Played on HMP. The only issues I noticed was that the beginning was very stingy because of the lack of armor and the excellently placed opposition. Those Sergeants lurking around every corner really can be nasty if you're not careful. I found the blue armor secret and that helped a lot. I did take a couple of cheap hits though when I entered the secret area from the ledge above to the left. But it's no biggy. My biggest complaint is probably the final fight. There's simply not enough room for all those demons to move around and sheer amount of them caused them to block each other and was easy enough for me to blast to bits from a safe position down the hallway. Afterwards there's a ton of ammo lying around that I didn't have any use for. The Barons posed very little threat. The exit caught me by surprise as I wasn't expecting the door to act as a switch. That should be changed imho. All in all I very much enjoyed this map. It looks good and the layout is nicely connected with a logical progression.

Thank you four your review. I'll fix up the exit and the blue door bars for the next version.
The start of the level felt too easy with more armor and health, so players are encouraged to find secrets for that. About the last fight, I feel like it's not a challenge, but rather a reward for getting through the level. If someone forgets that there is a rocket launcher nearby ( like me all the time) it can turn into a challenge though.

[SilverMiner]

Here's "Metabolism" (E2M9) with properly matching bytes in TEXTURE2 to run in Boom202 and derivatives

MAP HERE

MAP HERE

MAP HERE

11 hours ago, Iacobus said:

Pinkies always gather and get stuck in the geometry by the Blue key and prevent you from entering the next room.

Literally nobody can block your way in this map. If they block left corridor - run to the right and otherwise.

I don't throw Demons right in the face of the player so it's okay, if one wants to run past them - he will do it. I want right that amount of Demons to be in the penta-room. So no change here.

11 hours ago, Iacobus said:

Another one is the amount of sargents in that area, which just incentivizes the player to camp at the back room to pick them off, I would switch the side ones for imps

I also think that there're too many health pickups in UV for such a small map which completely nullifies the challenge, the line of threes could easily be just one and maybe have a Megasphere secret at the start

I would make it a drop pit and have the lift to the right bring you up from the pit instead of drop you down from a ledge.

Imps exist for walking on the floor, shotguys do the job of non-existent in DoomU chaingunners. So I won't change this part.

Hitscanners do their job in this map just ok.

Also for Tyson runners it would be a pain to dispatch these hard reachable imps with a pistol, right?

 

One medkit was always not enough for me on UV

Two too

Three medkits in a line is just excellent

 

But mentioning megaspheres in an DoomU project just nullified me lol (these don't exist in doomu)

You have a Blue Armour right in the start, isn't that enough?

 

I don't want to change the lift's behavior

11 hours ago, Roebloz said:

Remember you're going from a "hidden laboratory that has a secret elevator behind a giant box" kind of map to this.

Remember that you post your map's idea latter than my map's release so if you want to have your map's secret exit to match my map's starting area then you solve this thing, not me :P

Also I don't force you to place a plutonia teleporter in your secret exit area (that's up to you)

[Walter confetti]

12 hours ago, Iacobus said:

Edit: I just removed 'TEXTURE2' in order to record the demos.  METABOLISM.zip

 

And works without issues? I have to see it, when I get to my pc I'll download this version...

 

12 hours ago, Iacobus said:

The map is super fun to play and makes me want to make a full megawad called "Pocket-size Doom", if it ain't a thing already lol

 

Actually the idea of small wads was the first interpretation I made out for this type of challenge. There's also Scythe, Mini-level megawad, 1024 area size maps and more! So it's not a novelty... The big novelty here is working with file size restrictions.

To the guys asking me for maps, you've got it!

And your map looks pretty promising @Roebloz!

Edited September 20, 2020 by Walter confetti

[SilverMiner]

12 minutes ago, Walter confetti said:

when I get to my pc I'll download this version...

I hadn't tried but I believe it runs in PrBoom plus

Changed the wad file so that texture errors in Boom vanished

Link is the same

Edited September 20, 2020 by SilverMiner

[Roebloz]

4 hours ago, SilverMiner said:

Remember that you post your map's idea latter than my map's release so if you want to have your map's secret exit to match my map's starting area then you solve this thing, not me :P

Also I don't force you to place a plutonia teleporter in your secret exit area (that's up to you)

Okay sorry no need to be rude

[Iacobus]

Well, just to clarify, I think I was polite enough giving my suggestions and the reasoning behind them. I also don't recall using "you should" instead of "I would" in any instance. I'm simply giving feedback and trying to offer some insight, when possible, on publicly shared maps in a project I'm participating in and I'm not the leader of. What the authors do with it is beyond my scope and I'm not in position to demand changes on other people's creation nor I would want to. That said:

 

19 hours ago, SilverMiner said:

Imps exist for walking on the floor

 

Having imps in wall cages, cubby holes or shooting from a ledge above are some of the most common tropes in Doom level design.

Just a few examples:
 

Spoiler

 

19 hours ago, SilverMiner said:

Literally nobody can block your way in this map. If they block left corridor - run to the right and otherwise.

I don't throw Demons right in the face of the player so it's okay, if one wants to run past them - he will do it. I want right that amount of Demons to be in the penta-room. So no change here.

 

I said "they prevent you from entering the next room" and I was being charitable, I don't consider shooting 5 Demons safely from a ledge where they can't reach you gameplay exactly. My suggestion was to have a setup where they actually offer a threat to the player. If you watch the demo I sent, I had to consciously decide to herd them back to the arena to fight them properly instead of engaging the way the map introduces them.

 

19 hours ago, SilverMiner said:

Also for Tyson runners it would be a pain to dispatch these hard reachable imps with a pistol, right?

 

Tyson with a pistol?
I said the ones to the side that you can Berserk fist. I assume Tyson runners would thank me for asking to switch 6 hitscanners for 6 imps, which you can actually dodge the projectiles and cause infight with the Baron or the unreachable sargents at the top.

 

19 hours ago, SilverMiner said:

One medkit was always not enough for me on UV

Two too

Three medkits in a line is just excellent

 

There're 34 monsters in this map, only 3 above low tyer, and 325HP in pickups, in UV. My suggestion was in case your intention was to offer any challenge to other players you're sharing your map with. I'm a fairly casual DOOM player and it didn't take me more than 4 tries to get 100% kill no damage, 2 of the attemps I got hit once by a sargent down to 94%. FDA_METABOLISM.zip
It's not about what I want or what I need, anyone who can go through DOOM in HMP can safely go by here with 100HP less in UV, my suggestion is just in case you want to challenge a broader niche of players.

 

19 hours ago, SilverMiner said:

But mentioning megaspheres in an DoomU project just nullified me lol (these don't exist in doomu)

You have a Blue Armour right in the start, isn't that enough?

 

Meant to say Soulsphere. My suggestion was if you need that amount of health to beat the map yourself, you can always put it in a secret, again, in case you have other players in mind when you design your maps.

Edited September 21, 2020 by Iacobus

[SilverMiner]

2 hours ago, Iacobus said:

Having imps in wall cages, cubby holes or shooting from a ledge above is one of the most common tropes in Doom level design.

My map design seems to be turned inside out lol

[EpicTyphlosion]

Just for the record I'm still working on my map. I'm trying to make sure it's as good as it can be, since it'll be my first ever map after all. Still, I'm kinda worried that the compilation wad will be finished before my map is, lol

[maxresdefault]

@Fryuko hey I just played your map and it's really really nice looking. How did you managed to make such a gorgeous and detailed map while still being under 110 kb?

[Fryuko]

2 hours ago, maxresdefault said:

@Fryuko hey I just played your map and it's really really nice looking. How did you managed to make such a gorgeous and detailed map while still being under 110 kb?

Thank you, I'm glad you liked it. The map itself is not that big, tried to make good use of all the space I had, focusing more on detailing rather than map layout and complexity. I hope this explains it, I don't have a real answer 😅 

 

I'll use my 16 remaining kilobytes to make a proper exit room.

 

 

[BoxY]

On 9/18/2020 at 8:40 PM, Fryuko said:

I might have to fix some stuff later, but I'm pretty much done with my level. 
Name: Blood Red Bath Bomb ( I Can change it if it's too weird)
Slot: E1M1 (currently)
Difficulty settings are not yet implemented.
Blood Red Bath Bomb

 

Nice map, I made a sloppy and slightly inebriated FDA with one death and one exit here (-complevel 9). There's a pause after the death when I go get a drink.

I enjoyed getting the chainsaw before the shotgun because the level of danger in the opening rooms is just right for it, and it speeds up grinding through the pinkies and saves ammo. Geometry is solid but maybe just a bit too linear/square, most of the map you're either in very square courtyards or arenas, or walking through very straight hallways to get to them. There's not much reason to move around or be especially aware in those kinds of areas, because in a square once you've checked all four sides you can usually be pretty sure you've seen everything, and obviously in a hallway there's even less going on. Everything is nicely textured and detailed and overall an impressive use of only 100 kb though.

 

In the second run I found the blue armour secret, which is maybe overpowered in this kind of map, since once I got it I was pretty much 100% sure I would exit unless I did something extremely stupid. Never found that rocket launcher or the other secrets though. :(

 

The final fight with the two giant closets was probably the most disappointing part of the map for me, it was quite overwhelming-looking at first but then I quickly realised that all I had to do was camp that little corridor and it would pretty much clean itself, so it was kind of a letdown for what should have been a big and impressive fight to finish off the map. I guess the main problem is that the whole fight is on a narrow catwalk, so there aren't really any good movement options that are better than camping. It also might be possible to split alike monsters into different blocks so that mass infighting doesn't start as quickly. Shotgunning the barons at the end was a bit lame, but it was only 2 so whatever. Overall nice work, I didn't run into any bugs or major balance issues.

[Pechudin]

One question that might seem weird, but does @Walter confetti LLC hold exclusive rights to the WADs we make to be included in this bunch, or can we release them separately elsewhere (to, with other things, have it playtested)?

 

I am sure it does not, but would it be considered somehow rude to release it elsewhere, somehow spoiling it? Overthinking?

Edited September 21, 2020 by Pechudin

[Walter confetti]

You're meaning the maps for the main challenge? Or the episode you're working on?

[Michael Jensen]

This looks really fun and interesting! Sign me up for an E4 map, please. 

Edited September 21, 2020 by A.H. Sankhatayan

[Pechudin]

1 hour ago, Walter confetti said:

You're meaning the maps for the main challenge? Or the episode you're working on?

 

Any of them. I suppose it'd be more 'spoily' for the main challenge.