Is it lazy to use r667 SPRITES?

[Mr.S Retro]

Is it lazy to use only the sprites/sounds from r667 while completely "coding" the entire mod yourself? Also I cannot sprite well if my life depends on it.

Example:

I take the kzizd grenade launcher graphics and make a brand new grenade launcher that can throw sticky or toxic grendes.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Mr.S Retro

[URROVA]

nah. I use r667 resources, but no for lazyness, and these resources are here for any use, is totally good use r667 resources. But give credit :3

The r667 sprites are a really good help for people like me that makes horrible nes-like graphics xDDD

 

for example, the turret that i made for NEGATIVEONE use edited sprites from RocketTurret.wad, and i will use these turrets for IMPSCAPE too :)

Edited September 25, 2020 by URROVA

[inkoalawetrust]

I'd say that it's not lazy to even just take the full assets, code included and use them (With credit obviously.), especially if it's for something like a mapset instead of say a mod you are working on, since that could be considered lazy, while with a map I'd say it's reasonable to just take something from Realm667 and use it especially if it just behaves how you want it to out of the box. That's literally why Realm667 exists after all.

But if you go further and simply use the graphics and audio and code them into working actors yourself then not that CANNOT be considered lazy unless you think people should make stuff completely from scratch. Plus it's pretty reasonable to use already made assets since making sprites is about the hardest part of making a custom actor.

TL;DR No, that's literally what Realm667 exists for, and even just taking the whole asset as is, is still fine.

[P41R47]

Something similar was brought up a few weeks ago, but about the texture resources.
My answer is still the same.
If the resources are there, they are meant to be used.

So no, you are not lazy.

Just credit properly and its all fine.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

Nah, variety is great. As long as you aren't taking random R667 resources and throwing them in a wad without any thought, R667 is great. It literally just gives you more resources to work with, nothing lazy about it.

Edited October 13, 2020 by TheMagicMushroomMan

[mxrgan]

Absolutely not. R667's repository is awesome for not just weapons and monsters, but also textures, sounds, and even fonts for your wads. Its not lazy to take a few resources, especially if you want to just use the textures and code the rest yourself. Make sure to credit the author(s) though. 

[Raleigh]

For me is being very lazy. I prefer use all from myself and make it from scratch if I can

[Dark Pulse]

Not at all. They were literally made for exactly this reason - the community to use, remix, and enjoy.

[Solmyr]

Not lazy at all, what's actually lazy is using Realm667 resources blindly just because of rule of cool, as long as you put thought into which resources are fitting for your project and properly test each monster, powerup, item, weapon, and environmental effects (rain, crows, particle effects) it's not laziness.

[elend]

Not at all, that's precisely what it was made for in the first place. Whatever makes your map more interesting or fun to play, go for it.

[Kappes Buur]

I would say yes

but then the resources are there to be used and learned from.

 

 

Edited October 13, 2020 by Kappes Buur

[Robot J]

Depends honestly on how much resources you use. if you use alot than it can come off as that but using a fair amount is ok

 

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

13 hours ago, Raleigh said:

For me is being very lazy. I prefer use all from myself and make it from scratch if I can

Check out that ego on the DUKE!!

 

 

 

 

jkjk

[Bauul]

Not at all.  It is lazy to just grab them and use them without any consideration to balance or any adjustments at all, but what you're describing (just using the sprites and coding everything else) is about as far from lazy as you can get.  

[magicsofa]

2 hours ago, Kappes Buur said:

I would say yes

but then the resources are there to be used and learned from.

But you can't really learn pixel art from them, can you

[AtticTelephone]

Completely when you just use them without any changes in a wad, look at Serious Sam The Hell Encounter, a wad full of r667 assets which doesn't make it any fun when you have to memorize the patterns of a bunch of different monsters that act completely different.

[silentzorah]

I don't think so.  Some people are great coders and lousy spriters.  Some people are great spriters but lousy coders.  Just because someone is good at one thing but not at another shouldn't disqualify them from creating something on the grounds of being "lazy."

[Sergeant_Mark_IV]

You need to ask yourself if you really should use them. For example, 99% of 667 monsters are just the same enemies of Doom with a small difference on HP, damage, etc.
For example, look at the Abaddon. It's just a palette swapped Cacodemon with higher HP and fires projectiles faster. It has no reason to exist. Instead of including it on your map, you can cause the exact same gameplay impact as just placing 2 or 3 cacodemons instead. Many examples for weapons that works slightly differently or just exactly like Vanilla Doom weapons also applies.

I think the Doom bestiary is fine as it is, and superfluous variations of monsters are not necessary. Specially because it may result in people asking you to make your map have a compatibility patch with other mods.
Personally, I just include custom monsters when I am making bosses or sub-boss enemies. Placing one custom powerful monster at the end of a level/several levels is much more impactful than littering your levels with irrelevant variations of Vanilla monsters. 

If you want to make monsters fit the theme of your map better, sometimes a simple reskin (just using the sprites of these monsters to replace existing ones without changing their code) will work better. Like how Epic 2 did.

This become specially useless if you are not aiming at using GZDoom features (Like, you are not including stuff like dynamic lights, 3D bridges, slopes on your maps). You will be forcing people to play your map with only one sourceport and may break compatibility with some gameplay mods for no good reason.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Sergeant_Mark_IV

[AinuTheTaken]

Nope!

[magicsofa]

1 hour ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

 99% of 667 monsters are just the same enemies of Doom with a small difference on HP, damage, etc.
For example, look at the Abaddon. It's just a palette swapped Cacodemon with higher HP and fires projectiles faster. 

If you want to make monsters fit the theme of your map better, sometimes a simple reskin (just using the sprites of these monsters to replace existing ones without changing their code) will work better.

I know it's not in the thread title, but the question was specifically about using the graphic/sound resources while doing the actual behavior yourself. So this is completely irrelevant. Doom bestiary is good, but it's not the paragon of all bestiaries in all mods forever. OP wants to have some fun with decorate and be able to use some cool graphics beyond their ability to create. Permission granted.

[Angelloproduct]

it depends what kind of theme and direction your mod is going to be. I usually franken sprite since almost there's a bunch of sprite resources that you can use to articulate a figure or gesture as the reference

[Sergeant_Mark_IV]

47 minutes ago, magicsofa said:

I know it's not in the thread title, but the question was specifically about using the graphic/sound resources while doing the actual behavior yourself. So this is completely irrelevant. 

Adding just a thing or two, which does not deeply adds to the general experience and behaves the same way as the Vanilla counterparts is unnecessary, either if it's R667 code or not.
It's not an irrelevant advice because more importantly than giving my input if OP should use R667 sprites I'm asking to take into account for what purpose he wants to use them. Because if the scope of the project is changing the behavior of everything, R667 resources could pile up pretty bad on the project.

[Mr.S Retro]

12 hours ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

Adding just a thing or two, which does not deeply adds to the general experience and behaves the same way as the Vanilla counterparts is unnecessary, either if it's R667 code or not.
It's not an irrelevant advice because more importantly than giving my input if OP should use R667 sprites I'm asking to take into account for what purpose he wants to use them. Because if the scope of the project is changing the behavior of everything, R667 resources could pile up pretty bad on the project.

List of completely repetitive and mostly useless brutal doom things:

• MP40(same as smg)
• SMG(another rapid-fire weapon)
• Machine Gun(just rifle rocket/grenade launcher combo)
• Pistol zombieman(slower overall worse bd zombieman that could easily be replaced by having a normal zombieman occasionally drop a pistol)
• Zombie scientist(fodder pinky that does less damage)
• Mummy(Pinky with even more health)

By most people and myself these monsters add flavor to the mod, but from what you just said, all of these are redundant.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Mr.S Retro

[Doomkid]

There are some annoying gaps in Doom's enemy roster (I swear I recently made a detailed post about this but it's nowhere to be found)..

 

You can fill these gaps with cool variants. A zombieman/shotgunner who fires a slower, weaker version of an Arachnotron stream is awesome. Used these guys in Rowdy Rudy 1 and 2 and Doomed in Space to great effect. Sometimes you want a projectile shooting turret that's tougher than an imp, less irritating than a revenant, and not as huge as an Arachnotron. Variants can add a lot of spice.

 

It's the "Doom VS Doom 2 enemy roster" argument all over again, just brought to it's logical next step. There were many holes to be filled in Doom 1's lineup, hence Doom 2's lineup. After all these years I think it's safe to say adding some fresh variants in is welcome, at least by many of us.

 

The only bad custom monster is one where it has an attack pattern that cannot be read easily / learned an avoided, and takes far too much damage to go down. Both of those factors can be very annoying. You also don't want it to look too similar to another enemy - you should be able to distinguish each enemy type after seeing it for only a second.

 

That stuff aside, I encourage use of custom monsters, doubly so if you can use a universal language like DeHackEd to prevent them from being exclusive to one port, but ultimately it's up to you. In that same vein, compatibility with other gameplay mods should really not even be factored into the decision making process. People are playing your wad, and your wad is it's own experience. I would have gimped some of my older wads and sucked all the personality right out if I had given a damn about mod compatibility. My mapset is also the mod, especially when I've introduced custom assets. That's how I see it!

Edited October 14, 2020 by Doomkid

[Gaia74]

They are there for a purpose, to use them!, i consider it lazy to just compile realm667 resources and not make many changes but meanwhile you change things and make something new is perfect!

[Sergeant_Mark_IV]

30 minutes ago, Mr.S Retro said:

List of completely repetitive and mostly useless brutal doom things:

I'm not gonna try to defend that (most of these stuff are going to get cut from v22 anyway). I'm just giving my point of view of the experience of somebody that stared into the abyss of bloatness for too long.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

34 minutes ago, Mr.S Retro said:

List of completely repetitive and mostly useless brutal doom things:

• MP40(same as smg)
• SMG(another rapid-fire weapon)
• FLAMETHROWER(The flame canon is better In every way)
• Machine Gun(just rifle rocket/grenade launcher combo)
• Revolver(another pistol)
• Pistol zombieman(slower overall worse bd zombieman that could easily be replaced by having a normal zombieman occasionally drop a pistol)
• Zombie scientist(fodder pinky that does less damage)
• Mummy(Pinky with even more health)
• Arachnorb(a weaker and slower cacodemon)

By most people these monsters add flavor to the mod, but from what you just said, all of these are redundant.

I'm not sure what version of BD you played, but on v21 there was no revolver, mummy, or arachnorb, and only one scientist spawned, for the purpose of dropping his axe. I did not ever receive a flamethrower either, outside of the giveweapons command. In fact, I actually downloaded a mod that contained a revolver.

Edited October 14, 2020 by TheMagicMushroomMan

[mxrgan]

1 hour ago, Doomkid said:

That stuff aside, I encourage use of custom monsters, doubly so if you can use a universal language like DeHackEd to prevent them from being exclusive to one port, but ultimately it's up to you. In that same vein, compatibility with other gameplay mods should really not even be factored into the decision making process. People are playing your wad, and your wad is it's own experience. I would have gimped some of my older wads and sucked all the personality right out if I had given a damn about mod compatibility. My mapset is also the mod, especially when I've introduced custom assets. That's how I see it!

Agreed! :)

[Mr.S Retro]

Ok, so some of my facts were wrong and I am willing to say that I was incorrect with some of the items I had listed.

The mummy does appear in episode 2 of doom 1 in V21.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Mr.S Retro

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

7 minutes ago, Mr.S Retro said:

Ok, so some of my facts were wrong and I am willing to say that I was incorrect with some of the items I had listed.

The mummy and flamethrower do appear in episode 2 of doom 1.

Cool, I didn't know that! I've yet to play through OG Doom in BD.

Edited October 14, 2020 by TheMagicMushroomMan