The Ancient Gods - Impressions and Story Spoilers

[AtimZarr1]

I've just finished the DLC a few hours ago and figured I should share my thoughts.

 

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(1.0) GAMEPLAY

 

This is considerably harder than the main campaign. I did play on Nightmare and was tempted to lower it down during the third level. Many of the fights are much more intense or feature more Heavy enemies than one is used to from the main campaign. The levels often use environmental hazards to add extra challenge to fights. There is even a foggy pathway in which you fight enemies. There are many "distinct" encounters, like the room with over a dozen Shield Soldiers followed by Carcasses and a Doom Hunter. Or that room which suddenly fills with a ridiculous number of Imps out of nowhere. There's another moment where you're in a hallway with a Tyrant. Or in a small room with a Marauder. There's the two Marauders fight and the buffed Marauder fight. During Samur's boss fight, there's a section where they just spawn wave after wave of Cacodemons and Pain Elementals. Sometimes you get a buffed Super Heavy alongside a bunch of other Heavies already beating you down. Which do you prioritize in that scenario? I don't know and that's what makes the gameplay a lot more fun. There are more effective combat compositions than the base game, combined with effective new enemies, greater emphasis on environmental hazards, and more complex arena geometry - you get fights that feel unique compared to the main campaign.

 

Most of the secrets seem to be easier to find than in the base game's (I'm thinking about those Taras Nabad statues anyways). I do like that the levels don't display the kill count at the top right, though I suppose that's also necessary since there aren't any weapon points needed to spend anything on. Still, not knowing how many enemies are left in the level keeps me engaged and guessing - rather than expecting and anticipating. You don't have access to the Crucible, which makes sense since we last left the blade in the Icon's body. I wonder if we'll end up reforging it for Part II. We do have the Unmaykr though and there are at least two Overdrive power-ups that I can remember, so maybe it can get some use out of those situations (I didn't even realize I had the Unmaykr until I was replaying the levels with cheat codes).

 

(1.1) ARC Carrier (Hub) - You don't spend much time here at all. There doesn't seem to be any interactables or easter eggs, but I may have missed them. There aren't any collectible toys or music posters in the DLC either, so there's nothing to place here. It's not really a home though, it's like a staging ground. So this place is more of an "in-between point" than a "hub" like the Fortress of Doom was. That's a positive if you didn't like the downtime spent in the Fortress for the main campaign. I do wish there were more in the way of goodies here.

 

(1.2) UAC Atlantica Facility - This is a fairly large level made of three sequences: the intact base, the destroyed base, and the underwater base. I appreciate that that your weapons have rain droplets on them as you traverse outside. Nice detail. I also like how much of the level changes as you progress through it. Not many levels in Doom Eternal's campaign visually change as you progress within them. In terms of combat, this level was a bit of a rude awakening. I hadn't played in weeks and I decided to play on Nightmare, so I played pretty awful on this map and died probably close to a dozen times. The map certainly doesn't warm up either, it's straight up already more intense than Final Sin. This is the only level in the DLC with keycards I believe.

 

(1.3) Blood Swamps - This map has a nice non-linear element to it - there are two trials you must complete and you get to choose which order you want to do them in. The map is also visually cool too even if it's a bit too hazy at times. UAC Atlantica Facility and Holt feel a lot more sharper and clean, but Blood Swamps is going for a swampy aesthetic anyways so I suppose it works. There are a lot of environmental hazards here and some timed platforming sections too. I like the part where the Sentinel Wolf guides you to these beacons to light them up. Standing outside the radius of the beacon (or the Sentinel Wolf as it's guiding you) causes you to take damage from the presumably toxic air. I imagine some people might see this sequence as too linear but I thought it led to some unique encounters.  You've got to manage your space well in order to handle waves of Heavies and a Super Heavy or two otherwise you'll find yourself pushed out of the radius and taking unnecessary damage.

 

(1.4) Holt - While it's "more Urdak", it has its own visual theme in regards to the blood-red leaves/vines everywhere and the purple bodies of water and waterfalls. Some of the fights here can be especially challenging, most notably thanks to the introduction of the Blood Maykr. One sequence where you fight a Spirit-buffed Tyrant was also really tough once I realized Spirits also buffed the demon's health - and the Tyrant is already a tanky demon its own. Having to fight against waves of other Heavy demons while taking on the buffed Tyrant was really challenging but fun. The level got to its boss fight a bit quicker than I was expecting, didn't even realize I unlocked Fast Travel. Usually there's some kind of build-up before you meet the boss but this one just sort of walked into a room that happened to have a boss cutscene.

 

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(2.0) ENEMIES / HAZARDS

 

(2.1) Shark - There's a shark in UAC Atlantica Facility that can damage you. It's not an enemy and just travels in circles though. It just seems so hilarious to me.

 

(2.2) Giant Tentacle - They pop up a few times in the Blood Swamps. They aren't as threatening as regular Tentacles (who are more threatening mostly because of their unexpected ability to hit you) and I killed them quick before they had a chance to deal any damage. Still, a supermassive enemy with a destructible body is quite satisfying to destroy.

 

(2.3) Whiplash Spectre - Completely unexpected but I was aware they were in the base game files and could be restored. They even throw multiple Whiplash Spectres while there's a Tyrant running about. You can't use Lock-On Burst on these Whiplashes, but you can Ice Bomb them thankfully. They're not too bad but they're much more sneaky than regular Spectres and more likely to get a surprise hit on you while you're fighting other things.

 

(2.4) Swamp Pod - Not an enemy but an environmental hazard. Standing close to these causes them to burst and leave behind a damaging gas. The pods eventually regenerate and cannot be damaged/destroyed. There's a few fights where you got to manage these while fighting other demons. Or platforming sections with them too. They're an interesting way to discourage idleness.

 

(2.5) Turret - Somewhat similar to the Eyes of Kalibas, but much more tricky. Essentially, they pop up to fire a stream of energy orbs. If you stand too close to them or have your reticle on the them for too long - they go back into hiding and cannot be damaged. You have to shoot them twice for them to be destroyed, and shooting them once will cause them to immediately hide for a brief time. They drop some ammunition and health on death. I found these to be a pretty good harassing enemy type, especially when compared with other heavy demons. I almost always tried to kill these first but sometimes it backfires since the other demons have a chance to overwhelm it. It's not quick to kill either, so choosing to commit to fighting one is an important choice while in arena fights. In the Blood Swamps, you've even get to fight a Marauder alongside one of these - which makes for a pretty tough encounter since prioritizing one lets the other run relatively free.

 

(2.6) Spirit - I love that they brought back the 2016 Summoner design. These enemies are able to buff demons by possessing them - increasing damage, attack speed, movement speed, weak points become immune, the demon can no longer falter, the demon has more health, and the demon is highly resistant to Ballista shots. Not a fan of buffing health but the Slayer has access to so many high-damage weapons, most of the time it doesn't matter much. The Spirit can be a high priority target or a low target priority, depending on your situation. They are high priority in the sense that some demons are absolutely vicious when buffed by a Spirit and near unstoppable. They can kill you near instantly and in a few hits. However, they can become low priority in situations when you can't afford to Microwave Beam the Spirit once it's exposed after killing the possessed demon. There's certainly some fights where trying to commit to a Microwave Beam is going to backfire on you. I'm not sure what I think about the idea that he is only vulnerable to the Microwave Beam, but I do certainly enjoy how much influence the Spirit has on fights and how their priority can be higher or lower depending on your situation. Overall, they are an enjoyable enemy. Also, the Codex labels them as Ambient Demons.

 

(2.7) Blood Maykr - A combination of the Marauder's shield mechanic with the Maykr Drone's headshot mechanic. These Heavies rotate between a set of three types of ranged attacks, two of which lower their shield. They seem to reliably lower than shield (versus a Marauder for example) but it does take some time for them to cycle attacks, so it's not something you can "wait for" in the middle of a fight with other demons. A single headshot (using Sticky Bombs, Precision Bolt, or Arbalest) instantly kills the Blood Maykr. I'm not sure if they can take reduced damage to their other body parts when their shield is lowered or if they only require headshots - but I stuck with just doing headshots against them. They can be a pretty strong harasser if left uncheck but they aren't anywhere near as tanky as Marauders - meaning a well-timed Precision Bolt ends them immediately and you don't have to dance back and forth over the course of the fight. If you have the aim, you can take them out early. I don't like these enemies as much as the Spirits, but I think they are a decent addition to the bestiary.

 

(2.8) Trial of Maligog - A boss fight of some sort but doesn't include health bars and the boss is more like four elite enemies. Similar to Turrets, we get these Eyes that are now hidden inside a box. The boxes periodically open up for the Eye to fire powerful shots that can slow you down if they hit you. You need to time your dashes correctly, because being slowed by their shots is deadly. I'm not sure what's the variance on each weapon, but using the Ballista you need to shoot the Eye four-five times before it drops and must be punched out of the fight. I don't know if a dropped Eye can rise back up. The last two Eyes are fought at the same time, which is considerably harder when trying to manage your dashes to avoid their attacks. This "boss" also has Hell Knights and Pinkies spawn in during the fight, which adds a great deal of pressure if you're not careful (since both of these enemies encourage dashes already). Overall, I like this boss fight mostly for its unique design.

 

(2.9) Samur - An actual boss fight featuring a health bar and four phases. In the first and third phase, Samur can be damaged normally. He instantly teleports as soon as you damage him - so weapons like SSG or Ballista are ideal. There are various platforms and teleporters in the room for you to use - and a Blood Maykr harassing you as you fight Samur. Honestly the first and third phases aren't too bad, I don't think I even died on them. The second and fourth phase are surprisingly difficult. Samur is now wounded and shielded - two Spirits and two Heavies spawn to fight for him. During the second phase, the Heavies are Mancubus and Hell Knight. During the fourth phase, the Heavies are Pain Elemental and Dread Knight. There's also a platforming phase where you also have to fight Cacodemons and Pain Elementals, that can become dangerous if you're not too careful.

 

The fourth phase kicked my ass so many times, a near 15-20 times I think. Not only are you dealing with two Spirit-buffed Heavies in a rather small-ish room but you also got a Blood Maykr still attacking you (it respawns if you kill it). You better kill the Spirits as soon as possible since the Heavies respawn almost immediately after they die. It's incredibly easy to get cornered here if you're not careful. You need to use the platforms and teleports to your advantage. Manage the Zombie fodder well to upkeep ammo and health/armor. Not to mention there are a set of eight lasers or so that travel across the room - on Nightmare they inflict about 50 damage for just touching it. Overall, Samur is one of the hardest boss fights in Doom Eternal or any Doom game really.

 

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(3.0) SUPPORT RUNES

 

Support Runes are a separate tier of Runes added alongside your existing Rune choices. You unlock two from completing Slayer Gates, and one (Blood Swamp) from exploration. I do wish there were just three Slayer Gates. These are the Support Runes:

 

(3.1) Blood Punch deals double damage if you are below 75 health. On higher difficulties, this is a riskier choice since you could easily get killed for being below 75 health. It's more beneficial on lower difficulties where you're less likely to get one-shot.

 

(3.2) If a demon triggers an Extra Life, you have a set time to kill that demon and return the Extra Life. This is a pretty forgiving cushion for players that manage to find any Extra Lives. That said, Extra Lives feel a lot harder to discover this time around than before - but maybe I wasn't searching for them properly. Unlike the other Support Runes, this one can be negated quickly if you simply don't have any Extra Lives (completely useless on Ultra-Nightmare too) and can be unexpectedly difficult to bring back your Extra Life if you manage to die to a Marauder or a Spirit-buffed Tyrant or the likes.

 

(3.3) Destroying weak points trigger concussive blasts. This one is probably the safest and most ideal choice. It'll be active most of the time since most arenas are going to feature a few enemies with weak points anyways. I personally didn't get a chance to test this one out so I don't know how effective the concussive blast is, but I'm presuming it's similar to the Frag Grenade upgrade that causes a concussive blast too.

 

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(4.0) SLAYER GATES

 

There are two Slayer Gates (none in Blood Swamps). They have a new arena for it too. When I saw the achievements for Secret Encounters but none for Slayer Gates, I feared that there were no Slayer Gates for the DLC - but it was a pleasant surprise when I found them in-game. The UAC Atlantica Facility Slayer Gate felt a lot more harder than the Holt one - or maybe I had gotten into the flow by the time Holt came around. These fights are as intense as you'd expect and feature a lot more Heavies and Super Heavies than the base game's Slayer Gates. I had to improvise a few times when my ideal Ice Bomb combos were off-cooldown, which happened fairly often.

 

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(5.0) SECRET ENCOUNTERS

 

These feel a lot better designed than what the base game was finishing off on (Remember a room of Zombies and one Baron? Or a Hell Knight and a Cyber-Mancubus?). These fights feature a lot more enemies and in meaningful compositions too. Two highlights were a Secret Encounter that were composed of just six or seven Spectres. It reminded me of those Classic Doom traps filled with a single enemy. The other highlight was a Marauder and a Blood Maykr, in case people who thought just fighting the Marauder for one Secret Encounter in the base game was challenging enough. I do like that the Secret Encounters give a Slayer skin when you complete both of them - but I find it a bit strange to suddenly pause the entire game to let me know if I'm 1/2 or 2/2 on progress. I feel like a notification on the side would've sufficed.

 

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(6.0) STORY

 

Hayden is the Seraphim. VEGA is The Father. The Dark Lord is... another Slayer?

 

(6.1) Unfortunately for my Seraphim theory I posted a while back I took the wrong angle. To my understanding, the Seraphim removed The Father on his command (something I briefly speculated but didn't elaborate). Essentially, The Father's most loyal servants are Seraphs and the Seraphim is among them. Everything the Seraphim has done has seemingly been for The Father. He chose to live among humans to hide for a time, creating a clone body - Dr. Samuel Hayden. He would later make another body (the robot form) in order to survive the trip into Hell and retrieve the Slayer. I am still uncertain why Hayden was okay with destroying VEGA in 2016 - to my understanding VEGA was created using what was retrieved of The Father from the Luminarium. However, we learn about Life Spheres (orbs that can rebirth a god) and The Father's Life Sphere was in the Sanctum above the Blood Swamps. So I suppose Hayden knew "VEGA" wouldn't be completely destroyed as long as the Life Sphere existed. The Codex also describes a "golden age" for humanity thanks to Hayden's research on Argent Energy, which I found to be a curious word choice considering how terrible of a thing Argent Energy is supposed to be. I also don't see why Hayden would allow the UAC cult to develop, he was the Seraphim and he once argued for the Dark Lord's death - why would he allow his organization, one supposedly dedicated to helping humanity, to grow a demon-worshipping cult? Why hide his true identity from Doom Slayer or VEGA? Why not program VEGA to recognize/remember his own true nature as The Father? Eternal's base game Codex (which I presume is written primarily by VEGA) doesn't even know who the Seraphim is. Hayden apparently told the ARC scientists all these secrets some time ago though.

 

I'll still need some time to think on this. Right now, I'm not entirely sold on the idea that Hayden was the Seraphim or VEGA was The Father - it feels like very harsh retcons that reduce the number of characters rather than expanding on those characters. VEGA not being able to remember his time as The Father (something highlighted in the Codex as well) feels odd considering Hayden seems to have kept his memories. Hayden's personality in The Ancient Gods feels genuinely altruistic whereas in 2016 lore he was more of a representation of the UAC's recklessness and arrogance. I'm not even sure what's the narrative purpose of having the characters actually being another character. I think I would've preferred if Hayden, VEGA, the Seraphim, and The Father were four separate entities. I do like the context change in regards to the 2016 quote "I am not the villain in this story, I do what I do because there is no choice." because we learn he is a loyal servant of The Father acting on his will, so it would be correct to say he probably has no choice.

 

(6.2) We do learn a lot of lore about The Father's first world Jekkad and its significance. Essentially, Jekkad would be transformed into Hell over time (because of a bad combination of limitless ambition and mortal life) and its assigned god, a favored of The Father and someone I can't remember the name of but starts with D, eventually becomes the Dark Lord. The Father eventually defeats the Dark Lord but refuses to kill his creation, instead placing the Dark Lord's Life Sphere above the Blood Swamps. This feels like an extension of the Hell lore in the base game where we learn about how demons are formed or how Argent Energy is truly created. I don't like the over-explaining of Hell but it does make sense that if The Father is a god-like entity, then Hell had to be created by him at some point earlier.

 

(6.3) In the UAC Atlantica Facility, the Slayer retrieves the Seraphim's body (the UAC apparently recovered it after 2016). Hayden uploads himself into the body and reveals himself as the Seraphim this entire time - the ARC is in on this secret too. He believes the only one to save creation from the demons is The Father and asks the Slayer to retrieve the Father's Life Sphere. Urgently, since the Seraphim is undergoing Transfiguration due to The Father's absence. I do like that the Hayden = Seraphim theory is confirmed almost immediately in the DLC. It reminds me of the ARC broadcast in the base game immediately calling the Slayer "Doomguy" - after there being much discussion about his identity in the previous title. At first I thought the Seraphim wanted the Life Sphere for himself, but apparently he genuinely does want to see the Father reborn and believes he is the key to saving everything.

 

(6.4) In the Blood Swamps, the Slayer sets his sights on destroying the Life Sphere instead. The ARC intern is aware of this based on your HUD but apparently the Seraphim is not. I found that a bit odd. Once the Slayer reaches the Sanctum, the Seraphim is (somehow) there already. Maybe that goes along with my theory post discussing how the Seraphim may have unique teleportation powers, or maybe it's a Maykr thing in general. There's many Life Spheres here, presumably each for different gods. The Slayer takes The Father's Life Sphere and shatters it in front of the Seraphim. I'm actually not certain what's the purpose of this, maybe the Slayer doesn't trust the Seraphim or the Maykrs. In any case, he instead takes the Dark Lord's Life Sphere and leaves the agonized Seraphim behind.

 

I started having doubts about the Slayer here in the cutscene, mostly because I wasn't sure on why he was doing what he was doing. We learn later that the Slayer plans to resurrect the Dark Lord in order to kill him permanently, which will destroy all the demons outside of Hell. So I suppose the Slayer is opting for a straight-to-the-source and permanent-solution plan rather than a temporary one likely enacted by the Father if he were to resurrect (like last time).

 

(6.5) In the Holt, the Slayer makes his way to the Luminarium to resurrect the Dark Lord. The Father speaks to the Slayer about how deadly the extent of the demon invasion on Urdak has become. The ARC intern is also somehow able to contact you all the way out here. Also, apparently carrying a Life Sphere was enough to grant passage to Urdak using the ARC Carrier's teleporter. Seems a bit funny considering how much set-up was needed to teleport the Slayer to Urdak in the base game. The Father seems to be unaware that the Slayer is instead bringing the Dark Lord's Life Sphere. The Codex does mention that the Slayer's actions means the Father will remain as a "presence" and not as a physical form. So I suppose the Slayer isn't completely killing the Father here.

 

I'm not sure where was the point that the Father became aware of the Slayer's true goal here, but he does eventually anyways. The Seraphim is also here on Urdak and tries to stop the Slayer - his transfiguration has transformed him into a monstrous form. It seems the Slayer was about to kill the Seraphim but he does pause for a bit uncharacteristically. The Father then explains that the Seraphim does not need to die and has only done what The Father has commanded of him. The Seraphim is teleported away. If The Father is never going to resurrect though, I don't imagine there's a long lifespan in the Seraphim's future - but he'll likely appear in DLC part 2 anyways.

 

(6.66) In the final cutscene, the Slayer hands over the Dark Lord's Life Sphere to the Seraphs in the Luminarium. They are bound by law to fulfill the resurrection of any that enter - and so the Dark Lord is resurrected once more. However, the Father explains that "The Dark Lord is the leader of Hell's armies. Not a king, but a warrior of the Dark Realm. The fiercest among them, for only the strongest could rule the demons. He is you, in their world." The Dark Lord's physical form appears as the Slayer's - but covered in runes, with a cyber implant in his chest, and blood-red eyes. He also has the Slayer's Mark on his back.

 

I definitely did not expect this direction. So is the Dark Lord literally another Slayer? Is this multiverse shenanigans? Is The Dark Lord from a Doom 64 ending but gone wrong? Or is the body just being cloned? The Dark Lord was an entity from ages ago, how could he look like the Slayer? I may be mistaken about the new lore, but wasn't the Dark Lord created by The Father as one of the gods? Does the Slayer's Mark belong to him or the Slayer? Does he also have the guttural demon voice along with this apparently human body? According to the Codex, the Dark Lord had only been a "presence" until now - similar to The Father - and so I suppose Olivia Pierce and the Khan Maykr would not have known his true appearance either.

 

Anyways, all of these double identities makes Doom 2016 seem retroactively a strange game of masks - the Doom Slayer is Doomguy, Dr. Hayden is the Seraphim, VEGA is The Father, and the Dark Lord is another Slayer apparently. I am somewhat expecting the final fight in Part II to be a Deathmatch - a bit like that boss fight in Dusk. I think that would be pretty cool.

 

I do wonder if there is a connection to be made about the Dark Lord's two names starting with "D" (I can't remember his original god name right now but it did start with D) and possibly his true name being "Doom" (i.e. "the armies of Doom") while the protagonist is the "Slayer", it would explain why the latter was "renamed" to Slayer for the majority of Eternal despite regularly called Doom Slayer in 2016. Doom isn't an entirely out-of-the-question name since that was Doomguy's name in Quake 3 anyways. The two titles would be reflections of each other and represent their dichotomy - one is known as Doom and the other is known as Slayer. That's my off-tangent random naming theory.

 

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(7.0) DOOM 3

 

Fast traveling in the Blood Swamp reveals these two location names: Betruger Castle and Ishii Keep. The former is named after the antagonist of Doom 3. The latter is named after Dr. Jonathan Ishii, the scientist at the start of the game trying to send a warning about the Hell Gate. Pretty cool references.

 

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(8.0) CONCLUSIONS

 

I really enjoyed the DLC and of course I wish it were a bit longer. However, it's great that all of the levels are not only distinct from each other but also distinct from what comes in the campaign. I like that the fights are more challenging and incorporate some environmental hazards and varied level geometry to make the player approach these encounters differently. All of the new enemies add impactful consequences to the fights, they aren't simply just "more" enemies like Doom 3 Resurrection of Evil's additions. I hope they bring Spirits and Blood Maykrs to new Master Levels. Speaking of which, I'd be interested in Master Levels for the Ancient Gods' levels too! The fights are much more chaotic than the base game's, where I didn't feel threatened by Final Sin because most of the tough enemies were spaced out enough that I could handle them easily whenever they appeared. Having to actually change my strategies on the go in this DLC because there were simply too many powerful demons one-after-another makes the gameplay a lot more exciting to play. I am definitely excited to watch 100% Ultra-Nightmare speedruns of this DLC. If id Software keeps up this quality of additions and ways to make the gameplay different from the base campaign, then I'm looking forward to see what they come up with for Part II.

 

I'm interested in reading everyone else's thoughts, especially in regards to the story.

Edited October 21, 2020 by AtimZarr1
Grammar and minor changes.

[Midas-22]

Great summation. I think 'Davoth' is the name you could not remember. I played it on nightmare and enjoyed the difficulty, even though I did not expect it to be as tough as it was. I believe I had a similar experience to you, maybe I died once or twice per mission until the Hayden fight. He massacred me there in the final stage of that fight. I thought that it was poetic that Hayden was the (imo) toughest boss so far.

 

On Doomguy betraying Hayden and the Father, no doubt, Doomguy must have been reeling from the "Seraphim = Hayden" revelation. For Doomguy maybe it was the straw that broke the camel’s back? Hayden has been manipulating him since the 2016, using him as a beast of burden until this point. Right after Hayden assumes the form of the Seraphim, Hayden proceeds to tell Doomguy that it will be his 'privilege' to work under him once again. I also found it hilarious that earlier, before the revelation, Hayden is hyping up the Seraphim, telling Doomguy that most people are never lucky enough to meet the Seraphim and since it is Hayden it seems to be a dead set powerplay on Hayden's behalf. I believe that it was this final act of IQ mogging that led Doomguy to snap. I thought it was handled well. Since watching the Lighthouse I have always thought that Hayden and Doomguy have the same working relationship as Wake and Winsolw, with Wake and Hayden coveting the light of their respective towers (Lighthouse/Argent Tower(s)). In both cases the junior parties tend to the menial work and eventually snap, overthrowing their superiors in the process. There are more similarities, but I will leave that there for now. I was glad Hayden was spared, despite his hubris he is a good lad.

 

On Darkslayer. First thing that came to mind was PVP, in either the form of Invasion mode with respective players assuming the roles of Doomguy and Darkguy. This could also be accomplished in battlemode. Now I am pretty sure the codex explicitly mentioned that Davoth was the Dark Lord. The "He is not a King but a Warrior" (paraphrased) is just to highlight that he is there to fight, in a similar vein to Jesus telling us he "comes with a sword" in Matthew 10:34. To clarify, he isn't an observer like the Father but seems to be driving force behind his realm, a bulldozer like the Slayer. So I believe Darkguy=Davoth. Very interesting revelation, I agree with the Jacob sentiment, he was also (imo) the most fun boss in Dusk. I wonder where Part 2 picks up from here.

[snapshot]

I still haven't played it, it's been a while since last time I even touched this game. need to do some warming up first. 

Edited October 21, 2020 by sluggard

[BerserkerNoir]

Time might not flow the same in all realities, so it either might be a multiverse and/or timeline fragmentation of sorts.
The ending leaves a lot to be speculate about Davoth origins, but is likely that just as the Slayer is the Champion of Maykrs/Sentinels, he is the Hells One.




 

[Terrcraft]

cant wait for a bot 1v1 deathmatch with the dark slayer.

[Kaos]

Awesome thread and interesting read.

Of course someone telling you a story isn't the same as watching it unfold, but I'm getting some strange impressions from this.

 

I really liked Doom 2016 story and even if, in a way, backtrack to the classic doom story of exploitation of "arcane forces", I did like the theme of hell energy exploitation with several risks correlated. Hayden as the figure of reckless man of science that has to deal with the unexpected (or maybe quite expected) fall of his employees was fun to witness. It was also clear that UAC was trying to weaponize demons, with the research conducted in Lazarus lab, but the final aim there was left obscure.

It was a story that still rely heavily on Sci-Fi elements intertwined with occult themes. 

 

With Doom eternal the story twisted more on the occult / fantasy theme, that witness the doomslayer at the center of a plot involving a makyr / demons pact, so a sort of heaven / hell pact for the exploit of lesser races, with the doom slayer hell bent (obviously...) to put an hard stop to such unlikely partnership. It was still in a way enjoyable, but I found it less interesting than the original plot.

 

I see in this DLC things went full fantasy, with ancient evils resurrecting, some kind of plot than turn into something else and a temporary conclusion that ends up with something so similar to the "dark side of the hero" trope. Also a quantity of retconn to transform the original characters into something else.

Honestly I'm not sure I really like the direction of this plot, since start to feel like a manga were there is a escalation of the plot until we witness enemies becoming more and more mean, until they ascend to this sort of godhood status, so the fight shift from a mundane plane to something else completely out of scale (at the point that your suspension of disbelief start to break, since the Doom Slayer keep fighting them with a double barreled shotgun). 

 

As much as I'm aware that in doom the plot is still something expected to be there but that no one cares about, I don't think the building of this doomuniverse is really going in the right direction. And I would not really like to see the doom slayer challenging his dark side in a end of the saga reveal were maybe we find out that the doom slayer is in reality a supreme being that was split in a good and evil part (sigh!).

Not sure if others share the same feeling.

[SiFi270]

9 hours ago, AtimZarr1 said:

Is The Dark Lord from a Doom 64 ending but gone wrong?

Funny you should mention that.

Spoiler

Before The Lost Levels, Kaiser made The Outcast Levels for the Absolution TC, and this is how it ended:

 

[D4NUK1]

2 hours ago, Kaos said:

And I would not really like to see the doom slayer challenging his dark side in a end of the saga reveal were maybe we find out that the doom slayer is in reality a supreme being that was split in a good and evil part (sigh!).

Not sure if others share the same feeling.

It's not Split per se. In multiverses, there's always a constant, in this case, always will be a UAC or Corportation opening the doors to hell (The only thing that's not a constant), there always will be a Maykers, Father, Earth and them a Doomguy, not necesary all powerful on all cases. I imagine many Doomguys not being more than a marine, or Dead in some cases.

So it's not like he is split. It's just other marine goes insane from hell-

[Gez]

Davoth is totally a nerd kid named David who ended up king of Hell and decided he needed a spookier name befitting his station.

[Arbys550]

I just finished the campaign on nightmare yesterday and absolutely loved it. The fights are so much more intense and difficult than the original game, and I had an absolute blast getting my ass kicked. I did have to use sentinel armor on Samuel Hayden's final phase cause it just seemed impossible to me. I'll try to beat it proper next time around, now that I know you can kill the damn eye lightning things.

 

Master levels for these would probably be too much for me. The levels as they are are already harder than any master level in the original game. If any came out, I would probably have to step down to UV.

[deepthaw]

Turns out the other marine on the OG cover art is not just canon, but he’s now the dark lord?

 

or maybe it’s a cheeky way of making deathmatch canon.

I’ve always hoped the conclusion would involve the slayer getting his gifts revoked but remaining just as totally bad ass while every God like entity around him complains that doesn’t make any sense.

Edited October 21, 2020 by deepthaw

[Martin-CAI]

I liked the DLC. The difficulty was incredible, it was a real challenge. I have never played someting that hard in a Doom series.

The criticisms that I have are related to the story. Everything else, I have no complaints.

 

9 hours ago, Kaos said:

As much as I'm aware that in doom the plot is still something expected to be there but that no one cares about, I don't think the building of this doomuniverse is really going in the right direction. And I would not really like to see the doom slayer challenging his dark side in a end of the saga reveal were maybe we find out that the doom slayer is in reality a supreme being that was split in a good and evil part (sigh!).

Not sure if others share the same feeling.

Agree.

 

Also, maybe the idea of having direct contact with ruler entities (The Father and The Dark Lord) is the thing that I don't like at all. You can fight big demons or big angels, but now you're dealing directly with things that have nothing above them (at least, that's what's implied in the codex). It sounds "cool" to fight Satan, we could say, but it also means that we reached the peak of what we can fight against (in terms of Hell things). 

That has to do, also, with the fact that they progressively started adding god-like characteristics to the Doomguy (which, again, was a thing that I didn't like).

 

The question is: is it gonna be the end of Doom series if you kill the actual ruler of Hell?

We'll see.

Edited October 21, 2020 by Martin-CAI

[AtimZarr1]

Apparently Hugo visited ByteMe's livestream (linked to relevant timestamp) at the end to ask him about the DLC. ByteMe was already expressing disappointment over the possibility of a multiverse in regards to the Dark Lord's reveal (there seemed to be a chat delay). Hugo then shared an interesting statement:

 

 

 

---

 

I initially investigated this from a Reddit thread that was confused about Hugo's "not multiverse" response. The OP didn't provide a source but someone else mentioned ByteMe.

 

 

Here's Hugo's response to the OP:

 

 

Not sure what are the different definitions of multiverses, but here is an approximate transcript of what ByteMe was saying when Hugo mentioned "not multiverse", to better understand the context of Hugo's reply:

 

ByteMe: "I hope it's not multiverse. I don't understand it right now but yeah I'm not a big fan of the multiverse stuff at all. It has been beaten to the ground too much, it's like deep comics. I'm just not about that. I like contained stories that make sense. And right now I'm kind of, I've got... It's like, what do you call it in Chess? Where you get two question marks on a move?"

 

This is when Hugo replied with "Not multiverse". Hugo then follows it shortly after by the upper-case version.

 

---

 

A multiverse is directly mentioned in the Doom Eternal artbook "Processing a veritable kaleidoscope of hyperfluxal phenomena, VEGA observes what may very well be the result of a multiverse imploding inward upon itself, where countless battles are fought between the Doom Slayer and demonkind." A multiverse is somewhat implied by a deleted Khan Maykr voice line: "I will send you back to your home - the Earth world in the seventh dimension".

 

A multiverse would also be needed to reconcile the timeline differences between the games. According to 2016 lore, the UAC founded a base on Mars in 2096 and the Doom Slayer's tomb was retrieved in 2145. If Doomguy was to be sent to Mars as punishment within this timeline, it would have to be after 2096 - and Doom, Doom II, Doom 64, the time with the Sentinels, the war against Hell, and the sealing into the sarcophagus - would all be within 49 years. Samuel, VEGA, the UAC, the ARC, the Maykrs, and Hell - none of these parties suggest or hint that the Earth was invaded recently. If they took the time to mention Agaddon Hunters appearing millions of years ago, then it's not impossible to imagine they could mention an invasion in the last 49 years. Time cannot be slowed in other worlds like Hell (as a popular counter-argument proposes) because the Slayer goes to Kadingir Sanctum in 2016 and returns to find the demons have already destroyed most of the Argent Facility. Hayden is able to contact the Slayer in real-time in Nekroval. The ARC intern could contact the Slayer in real-time in the Blood Swamps. There isn't any suggestion or hint that there's an inconsistency in timelines between Hell and other worlds.

The Doom multiverse theory is necessary to explain these timeline differences between the Classic and Slayer games. Alternatively, maybe Hugo meant on stream that the Dark Lord is not from another universe, but doesn't necessarily negate the existence of a Doom multiverse in general.

 

I don't know what to think of it. I just thought I should share Hugo's comments on here to see if anyone here can interpret them any better.

 

---

 

Separately, here are some updates from the launch livestream:

 

- DLC 2 will have Meat Hook challenges and that DLC 1 doesn't have anything like it.

 

- Ice Bomb may be rebalanced in the future. They want to tone down top level strategies.

 

- Super Gore Nest Master Level, along with additional Master Level modes and cosmetic unlocks, are coming in December.

Edited October 21, 2020 by AtimZarr1

[thewormofautumn]

2 hours ago, AtimZarr1 said:

Ice Bomb may be rebalanced in the future. They want to tone down top level strategies

 

Gawd, I hope not :(

Ice Bomb is... well... the bomb!

[thewormofautumn]

Anyway, just finished the DLC.

 

I'm both pleased with new things being added, but also felt that it was a bit much. The combat is exhausting. I play on Nightmare, and in some parts, I dropped down to I'm Too Young To Die, not because of the difficulty, but because I just wanted time to enjoy the scenery, haha. I feel with the game being so frenetic, there's less chance to appreciate some of the environments, which by the way are the best in the current series, IMO. Some sections of the Blood Swaps are downright gorgeous and show what Hell could have been like in the distant past. And the opening stages of The Holt were equally stunning.

 

Combat was as expected, top notch, apart from it being possibly a little over the top. Hugo hinted that it's going to ramp up again in DLC2, which I think takes us into Dark Souls territory. Not something I'm excited about if I'm honest.

 

As for the plot, it's clear now that Doom 2016 was done with no thought to the future. The series has taken the skeleton of that plot and gone off in a very different direction.

I'm not overly keen on the idea of the Dark Lord being another Slayer, but we'll see how it plays out in DLC2. I find it odd that an ancient being (Davoth) who was created BEFORE the Slayer, now has a Slayer's body. Of course, was it ever mentioned that Davoth IS the Dark Lord? I seem to recall mention of "the current ruler of Hell"/"the current Dark Lord" which implies that someone (Slayer?) took over from Davoth, which means that wasn't his Life Sphere we returned?

I really hope DLC2 clears this stuff up. Nothing is really making a lot of sense, plot wise.

 

[SulfurOccult]

The makyr, earth, and hell dimensions present in D2016 and Eternal constitute a "multiverse" in that they are separate spatial dimensions.

The idea that there multiple incarnations of Doomguy in different timelines, such as Doom 1/2 and Doom 3 being contained timelines, would also be a "multiverse"

 

Martin might have meant one of these things, but not the other, perhaps?

[Buckshot]

My thought is that the DLC design seems to reflect the subconscious & psychological impact that the dev team endured under COVID stay-at-home orders (I believe the studios were and are currently closed due to the pandemic).

 

Very tight and claustrophobic fights and maximum sensory overload in the DLC design. No time to breathe or rest, complete chaos and mayhem. They may not even be aware of the fact their design was impacted by being stuck at home in confinement or the chaos and panic that ensued these past several months, of which inflicted it's toll on our mind and senses and possibly influenced the creative subconcious even if unknowingly.

Of course, that's all freudian in nature.... but so is the term 'id'. Ironic of what's in a name, isn't it?

[whatup876]

Might have been misunderstanding it but:

Is the idea of the Dark Lord that he eventually became an evil Doomguy clone because of Doomguy summoning him back or because Hell decided an almost perfect copy could have been the solution to defeat Doomguy?

Either way, i hope he becomes the actual "anti Doomguy" gameplay-wise that the Marauder didn't really become.

Still, a lot about this lore comes off as an interesting experiment with a lot of great ideas but it also grows too much of its own identity from what you'd expect out of Doom.

[thewormofautumn]

^ my current theory is that the Slayer is going to replace the current Dark Lord as the new ruler (below Davoth) of Hell.

And that it's a continual cycle; the Slayers take each others' places and the cycle repeats.

[IrOn7HuB]

   If there is a sight of a multiverse, i'll be pretty much going for that since there are many questionable continuity problems in both "DOOM Slayer" games and the classics. You can notice that DOOM 3 (A counterpart universe) sets after DOOM 64 discovering the hell realm that Doomguy decided to stay. The ancient buildings from the martian civilization in DOOM 3 is basically work of the Maykr race or the dark lords. Samuel Hayden (general Hayden) was originally going to be the villain in DOOM 3. I personally believe this pretty much fits on the whole story events from the franchise.

   Funny thinking: It would be nice if the canned DOOM 4 sets before and during the events of DOOM II: Hell on Earth. Like Tom Hollenshead (Former id CEO) said, the game wasn't a reboot and neither a DOOM 3 sequel. If you look further into the design of the project there are familiar roles that were later repurposed on DOOM (2016.)

[Buckshot]

If it's not a multiverse (either of other doom games or of all id games), then it's quite possibly a time loop where future slayer and past marine could possibly cross paths in some sort of space/time paradox. Or there is a past (marine)/present(Slayer)/future(???) variants that coexist across the story (UAC does have technology capable of such, and if slipgates are a thing, that makes it possible to go back in time and be your own grandpa I guess)

 

HOWEVER, thewormofautumns comment above makes it seem like it's going to take a "The Dark Tower" approach (which was a multiverse saga of Stephen King's) where Slayer's tale is a long one and he is "doomed" to be repeat it for all eternity. Just when he thinks it ends, it starts all over again with little to no recollection of what had occured prior and only a artifact to give him hope he might defeat them 'this time'. I'll call this theory the slayers own personal hell theory.

 

Or perhaps thewormofautumns is referring to more of a bloodborne-like ending where Slayer essentially becomes a Great One himself but basically becomes the monster he swore to destroy.

 

Or maybe they love Dallas so much down there at Id HQ that they drew inspiration from the tv show of the same name and Slayer wakes up with his wife and kid at home on Earth and says "what a terrible dream I just had" and he's not really a Slayer but some a average dude who just works at the UAC (or perhaps he's sam hayden dreaming) and life goes on or it causes him to realize a proje t at work will lead to this sort of event and he stops it from his dream state premonition before it begins. After all,there was that photo on the floor of his presumed family picture with wife and son and his face cropped out in a pre-patched version of Eternal. Of course, this would be fanbase suicide for this dallas-theory plot, lol, but I guess anything's possible!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2020 by Buckshot

[Xfing]

What I really liked about this game is that fodder demons are not only way more numerous than in the base campaign - making the DLC feel even more like oldschool Doom with you being able to kill literal hordes of them, and their danger coming from their numbers - but they're also required to be mopped up before checkpoints are unlocked. In the base campaign you could leave them around, which made them feel less like legitimate enemies and more like walking resource bags to be harvested for health and ammo. Definitely a move in the right direction.

 

The difficulty is absolutely ridiculous, I must have died well over a hundred times on the first level (playing on Nightmare ofc) Still liked it and gonna continue and finish the campaign. Watched an LP already so I know what to expect, and the difficulty of the later two levels appears even more grotesque - makes me think of it as kinda like a legit, developer approved Hell Revealed, lol 

 

I need to read all the codex entries to properly appreciate the plot but yeah, there were ample hints dropped earlier that Samuel is Samur and Vega is the Father. The plot did move very quickly towards dispatching the Dark Lord though, and that kinda seems like the end goal of the entire storyline - so I'm hoping it's not going to be the end. After that there's still room for a story where Doomguy takes the fight to hell and finally finishes the job for good this time.

[oCrapaCreeper]

On 10/20/2020 at 6:01 PM, AtimZarr1 said:

I started having doubts about the Slayer here in the cutscene, mostly because I wasn't sure on why he was doing what he was doing. We learn later that the Slayer plans to resurrect the Dark Lord in order to kill him permanently, which will destroy all the demons outside of Hell. So I suppose the Slayer is opting for a straight-to-the-source and permanent-solution plan rather than a temporary one likely enacted by the Father if he were to resurrect (like last time).

It also wasn't in the Slayer's interest to resurrect the Father. His goal is to stop the war against hell so they stop invading worlds, the only way to do that is to manifest the Dark Lord into a physical form and kill him off completely so he stops whispering orders to his minions. The Father wants the Dark Lord alive though despite everything because he is his creation, so resurrecting the father would have ensured the Dark Lord stayed alive and the demons could keep invading worlds as they pleased, just not Urdak. The Slayer doesn't want that of course, he just wants it to end already, so in the end he made the right choice in that regard.

Edited October 22, 2020 by oCrapaCreeper

[chemo]

I loved the DLC and the additional challenge it provided. There are some quibbles here and there (such as the Spirit-possessed enemies being a tad bit too durable IMO), but nothing that ruined the experience. I might even warm up to these aspects on subsequent playthroughs, and my initial run was on Nightmare, anyway, so I shouldn't be complaining too much.

[Kaos]

I will be quite surprised if they scratch the multiverse thing entirely. Either they have a extremely clever way of connecting all the timelines without retconning everything (doom 2016 and eternal included) or they will leave behind a plotholes mess. 

Unless the base assumption that doomguy and doom slayer are the same person is wrong and they are not. 

So Doomguy ended up staying in hell and becoming the dark lord, while doom slayer is maybe the doom 3 protagonist and the end of doom 3 is actually him being transported to sentinel prime. 

 

Eventually as said above, I am not a fan of the multiverse thing since it provide easy escapes and deus ex machina, is the known form of "it's magic I don't have to explain shit" (substitute multiverse with magic and you got it). So I really hope we are not left with this sort of explanation.

In his interview Hugo was clear enough that they wanted to turn things up to 11, but it come at a cost of making things a bit cheesy in my opinion.

 

Edited October 22, 2020 by Kaos

[igg]

16 hours ago, thewormofautumn said:

Of course, was it ever mentioned that Davoth IS the Dark Lord? I seem to recall mention of "the current ruler of Hell"/"the current Dark Lord" which implies that someone (Slayer?) took over from Davoth, which means that wasn't his Life Sphere we returned?

Aren't they life spheres for gods only? The codex also hints at Davoth being the Dark Lord:

 

Part I:

Quote

In the same moment he brought forth Jekkad, The Father forged Davoth to steward the realm. Davoth was a Primeval, one of The Father's first gods, and of such strength that each realm could contain only one.

Part VIII

Quote

Believing Jekkad rejected by their creator, hate grew within Davoth. Jekkad fell further into inequity as Davoth consumed all the realm in pursuit of his goals, and The Father sorrowfully sealed Jekakd away from the other realms. The Primeval, created to protect and shepherd the people of his realm, stoked an eternal fury toward The Father as more of his people fell to mortality. He became the Dark Lord and raged against the walls of Jekkad.

The Father sensed this and knew they both needed to leave the physical realms before their warring lieutenants tore creation apart. It was then that The Father returned to Jekkad, now called Hell by many. Atop the Pyramid of the Lost where Hell once worshipped The Father, as the skies split and Hell trembled, The Father ripped the Dark Lord's life sphere from his chest. He placed it in the Tomb of Souls, unwilling to obliterate the Dark Lord's essence entirely as he had favored Davoth once.

 

Some general thoughts:

 

Vega/Father storyline: I did not feel comfortable destroying the sphere. Why should I kill the life sphere of my best ally? The relationship between Vega and the Slayer has always been something special and remarkable. I agree with the interpretation of @oCrapaCreeper ("The Father wants the Dark Lord alive though despite everything because he is his creation, so resurrecting the father would have ensured the Dark Lord stayed alive and the demons could keep invading worlds as they pleased, just not Urdak."), but I still don't like it. Of course, this was Doomguys revenge on Samur/Samuel. But at what price?

 

Doomguy/Doomslayer: Him being called Doomguy is one of the strongest hints at the Slayers origin (of course, the Khan Maykrs sentence also kind of confirmed this: "I will send you back to your home - the Earth world in the seventh dimension")

 

Doomslayer/Dark Lord: The final line "The Dark Lord is the leader of Hells armies. Not a king, but a warrior of the Dark Realm" kind of confused me. According to the codex (see above, Part VIII) the Dark Lord is Davoth. And Davoth was, also according to the codex, one of the first gods (see above, Part I). I do not think this is the Doomguy from Doom 64, since Doom 64 perfectly connects the storylines of Doom I + II with Doom 2016 + Eternal. I wonder how they will handle this in the second DLC.

 

Gameplay: This is one of the major weaknesses of the first DLC. Since the Slayer is fully equipped, there is no progress. This also forced id Software to make the arenas really hard, otherwise it would just be boring. I'm playing Eternal on Nightmare right now and UV was for most of thr DLC  just fine for me (except for the Samur boss fight). Unfortunately the DLC gets quite repetitive - after a while I wasn't worried anymore when 1 or 2 Barons entered the arena because this just meant some extra combat cycles. But the DLC also contained some nice and entertaining ideas: The dog which guards you through the toxic sections in the Blood Swamps, the Pinky slaughter scene in the Holt.

 

In general the DLC is like a master level, just a little harder.

[Swordofdanu]

Haven't seen any mention of the soundtrack, how is it? 

[igg]

12 minutes ago, Swordofdanu said:

Haven't seen any mention of the soundtrack, how is it? 

I like the DLCs soundtrack more than Eternals one. In the DLC it's not just metal anymore. In Eternal I sometimes reduced the volume because the constant sound aggression was really getting on my nerves.

 

[thewormofautumn]

4 hours ago, igg said:

According to the codex (see above, Part VIII) the Dark Lord is Davoth.

 

In my view he was the FIRST Dark Lord.

 

but remember this, from 2016:

 

" the Barons of Hell are the current Royal Guard of the unknown dark lord of the fourth age"

- UAC REPORT FILE: IIS5LW21 (Baron of Hell Codex 2), Doom 2016 "

 

that implies that the Dark Lord has changed over time 

 

[Swordofdanu]

53 minutes ago, igg said:

I like the DLCs soundtrack more than Eternals one. In the DLC it's not just metal anymore. In Eternal I sometimes reduced the volume because the constant sound aggression was really getting on my nerves.

 

Interesting, thanks. 

I'll have to check it out.