The Ancient Gods -- review from someone who DIDN'T like it

[id.dav]

Thanks OP)

Finally people started to realise things I was saying about right after DE release explaining why it is worse than 16 in almost every possible way! Better late than never)) I still beleive that the problem is Hugo Martin who is apparently took full control over game direction...don't get me wrong- he is a "nice guy", but I belive he thinks too much of himself and he is even listed as one of the story creators...really? A story director?...since when this guy became a lore expert in industry?? I beleive he is the reason game took this extremely stupid juvenile fantasy route in lore...absolutely hate it as this shit has no place in Doom! Artists should do scetches and let tallented sci-fi writers do the lore.

And btw I'm not a fan of Blood swamps since I believe it is too generic in its "fantasy-medeival ruins kinda I've seen this million times before" aesthetics aproach. And where is a single blood pool in a Blood swamp area??? Holt, on the other hand, is defenately the best creation in dlc as it immanates evilness and disturbing vibe with atmospheric ambience and has one of the most amasing artistic design ever seen in games or films.

Edited November 1, 2020 by id.dav

[jazzmaster9]

6 hours ago, id.dav said:

 

Finally people started to realise things I was saying about right after DE release explaining why it is worse than 16 in almost every possible way!

People had "realise" this even before the game came out, your not special.

 

6 hours ago, id.dav said:

but I belive he thinks too much of himself and he is even listed as one of the story creators...really? A story director?...since when this guy became a lore expert in industry??

you mean like how John romero took over Tom Hall's vision of Doom? and made into a simple shooter instead of an action adventure?

Since when did this john romero and sandy Petersen become the lore expert?

 

See how silly that sounds?

 

Its fine not to like something, but don't pretend to know someone's personality just because he didn't make a you were entitled to have.

6 hours ago, id.dav said:

Thanks OP)

...absolutely hate it as this shit has no place in Doom!

I don't like it therefore it has no place in doom

Edited November 1, 2020 by jazzmaster9

[NeoWorm]

@jazzmaster9 Man, your reactions are pitiful.  Nahnah nah "you are not special", it's just like something completely unrelated from different situation and age so your argument is invalid... How silly does it sound? You sound extremely silly right now, and if you don't see it, you are hopeless.

[jazzmaster9]

I will say, even with doom 2016, the silliness has always been there and was point of contention as well upon release.

 

What we see in battlemode's skins seems to me like a extension of the silly dances from Doom 2016.

Edited November 2, 2020 by jazzmaster9

[snapshot]

2016's Multiplayer didn't strike me as a totally silly experience, they seemed quite serious about it, even in all the mode trailers prior to the game's release and the DLC trailers. But I still loved it, taunts included

Edited November 2, 2020 by sluggard

[Mogul]

I think the main issue with Eternal is that it has potentially been over-gamified. You can call it a "combat puzzle", and it is fun and exciting and challenging, and it gets the blood pumping, but you're right, it is exhausting when there's pretty much one strategy to defeat several of the enemy types, and there are tons of them in every encounter. When the encounters come one after another, which, let's be real, is kind of the point of the game, and you're on UV or Nightmare, it starts to feel tiring. Not tiring, like, man, I'm bored. Tiring like, this is physically and mentally exhausting; how much are you going to put my adrenal glands through?

 

That said, consider the alternative. The original games, which are great and can never be replaced, are mechanically simple to the point of a 2020 gamer probably not finding much reason to play after experiencing them once, or in-part. Seems to me that without the modern games' mechanics, you're left with something that's actually a lot less fun to play. Too one-dimensional, perhaps.

 

One last thing on that point. It might just be that they've let the genie out of the bottle on combat, but now that it's out, they can't put it back in. It reminds me of how, after WoW, every game, no matter the genre, was practically required to add in grindy, reward-laden engagement systems because this one game showed the masses how fun (and profitable for the dev studio) it could be to spend 18 hours per day playing a game. It kind of ruined the industry, from a gamer's perspective, and yet, now that I am so used to the model, I can't exactly go back and play Super Mario World for more than 10 minutes at a time. Can there be too much of a good thing? Interesting topic.

Edited November 2, 2020 by Mogul

[jazzmaster9]

1 hour ago, sluggard said:

2016's Multiplayer didn't strike me as a totally silly experience, they seemed quite serious about it, even in all the mode trailers prior to the game's release and the DLC trailers. But I still loved it, taunts included

Yeah the marketing for Doom 2016's multiplyer presented it in a very Serious manner. though i wish that multiplayer comeback in Eternal in the future. Battlemode is a cool experiment though and i would like to see that expanded even more.

 

5 hours ago, NeoWorm said:

@jazzmaster9 Man, your reactions are pitiful.  Nahnah nah "you are not special", it's just like something completely unrelated from different situation and age so your argument is invalid... How silly does it sound? You sound extremely silly right now, and if you don't see it, you are hopeless.

Okay i apologize if my reply to him seemed rather harsh and I do see that.

 

But I personally find post like "I don't like it" = "Its objectively bad and doesn't belong in doom" incredibly Silly and I just call it how I see it. Silly

Ohh this this person's fault my favorite game is ruined because they didnt make it it the way i did. 

 

I just find those type of posts very short sighted unlike, say the OP, who atleast acknowledges merit in a design philosophy he doesn't agree with. 

Edited November 2, 2020 by jazzmaster9

[NeoWorm]

3 hours ago, jazzmaster9 said:

Okay i apologize if my reply to him seemed rather harsh and I do see that.

 

But I personally find post like "I don't like it" = "Its objectively bad and doesn't belong in doom" incredibly Silly and I just call it how I see it. Silly

Ohh this this person's fault my favorite game is ruined because they didnt make it it the way i did. 

 

I just find those type of posts very short sighted unlike, say the OP, who atleast acknowledges merit in a design philosophy he doesn't agree with. 

I've been warned for that post, so I will be try be more reasonable. I still stand by my opinion that you are acting silly yourself.

You are posting the same thing, only it's "I like it" = "It's objectively flawless and everybody saying otherwise is wrong." There have been posted countless detailed arguments why people find that game lacking and in what way. But you seem like you just ignore it and try to find some unrelated factoid to invadite it and than calling those arguments silly. Like right now - comparing multiplayer that is completely separate game mode, actually created by external studio with completely different goals as argument why DooM 2016's campaing was silly. That is just objectively bad argumentation, I would probably could find and name which logical fallacy it is. And you are doing this for few pages of discussion already. Trying to explain something to you is tiring, because there is nothing you ever acknowledge as valid criticism.
If there is divide in opinion about something as wide as there is about Eternal, it usually means there IS something wrong about it. Not that everybody who doesn't like it is wrong, deluded or whatever. 

[jazzmaster9]

 

 

23 minutes ago, NeoWorm said:

You are posting the same thing, only it's "I like it" = "It's objectively flawless and everybody saying otherwise is wrong." There have been posted countless detailed arguments why people find that game lacking and in what way. But you seem like you just ignore it and try to find some unrelated factoid to invadite it and than calling those arguments silly. 

If you noticed How I've been only been responding to the "matter of fact" people who seem to think something is objectively bad because it wasn't made specifically to how they want?  I will stand by the opinion that it sounds silly.

 

I'm not Invalidating anyone's opinion but simply pointing out how differences in design/gameplay preference is not always equal to incompetence. 

 

 

23 minutes ago, NeoWorm said:

 comparing multiplayer that is completely separate game mode, actually created by external studio with completely different goals as argument why DooM 2016's campaing was silly. That is just objectively bad argumentation, I would probably could find and name which logical fallacy it is. 

I wasn't trying to argue anything, just pointing out how both games have silly aspects to them. I don't see anything wrong with what i said there. 

23 minutes ago, NeoWorm said:

Trying to explain something to you is tiring, because there is nothing you ever acknowledge as valid criticism.

You mean like how the OP did? notice how i didn't go after the one person you would expect me to to?

because he did it in a very well spoken way instead of the usual "these guy don't know what real doom is" or "lol cringy and edgy"

 

I already acknowledge in a post, how I do understand where his criticism comes from.

23 minutes ago, NeoWorm said:

If there is divide in opinion about something as wide as there is about Eternal, it usually means there IS something wrong about it. Not that everybody who doesn't like it is wrong, deluded or whatever. 

Well I guess we just gotta agree to disagree here. I Just think Doom Eternal is everything I wanted in a modern Doom game.

 

 

Edited November 2, 2020 by jazzmaster9

[Serum]

On 10/21/2020 at 11:01 PM, SovereignX9 said:

The Spirit. I think the idea is cool in theory, but the fact that you have to microwave it with the plasma gun absolutely stalls the fast paced flow of movement that the game expects you to have.

 

The duo Marauders was awesome

 

This seems kind of contradictory... Marauders have always been notoriously infamous for how they halt the flow

Edited November 2, 2020 by Serum

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

This comment what eaten by a hungry Pinky.

Edited November 3, 2020 by TheMagicMushroomMan

[jazzmaster9]

3 hours ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

What killed it for me is when he stooped so low as to make fun on another user's English skills in another thread (the thread about DE's humor)

Okay i have been harsh with the guy, and apologize for that.

I will say this is the same person who insisted people were wrong about humour being subjective.

It's kinda hard to take someone seriously after that.

 

Though I don't want to derail the thread any further. Since this has become super off topic now

Edited November 3, 2020 by jazzmaster9

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

Just now, jazzmaster9 said:

It was obvious that person was trolling, 

Remember this is the same person who insisted people were wrong about humour being subjective. Its really hard to take that seriously.

 

His "opinion" (if that's what you want to call it) was bullshit, I agree, but honestly I didn't get the impression that he was purposely trying to troll. I think the big language barrier makes his posts an easy target. Trolling is a purposeful act, that person was just ignorant. But that's the thing: judge people on the ideas that they are presenting, not their ability to speak a language they obviously aren't too familiar with. Nobody learns how to become fluent in a foreign language overnight. Just because somebody is wrong about something doesn't give you the right to attack them on a personal level over something they probably can't help (especially if your own posts have rather obvious grammatical errors). You make plenty of good points about different things, but you come across as an even bigger offender than the people you are arguing with because you resort to insulting people and taking things way too personally to get your point across.

[jazzmaster9]

8 minutes ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

His "opinion" (if that's what you want to call it) was bullshit, I agree, but honestly I didn't get the impression that he was purposely trying to troll. I think the big language barrier makes his posts an easy target. Trolling is a purposeful act, that person was just ignorant. But that's the thing: judge people on the ideas that they are presenting, not their ability to speak a language they obviously aren't too familiar with. Nobody learns how to become fluent in a foreign language overnight. Just because somebody is wrong about something doesn't give you the right to attack them on a personal level over something they probably can't help (especially if your own posts have rather obvious grammatical errors). You make plenty of good points about different things, but you come across as an even bigger offender than the people you are arguing with because you resort to insulting people and taking things way too personally to get your point across.

Agreed with this

I will admit i get very caught up with these and go over board. So apologies for that

 

But yeah lets not derail the thread any more though.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

10 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

Agreed with this

I will admit i get very caught up with these and go over board. So apologies for that

 

But yeah lets not derail the thread any more though.

I agree with that last sentence :)

 

I get worked easily when I'm talking to people online too, even if it's not a reflection of who I am in reality. So I'm just trying to give some advice, it sucks getting pissed off and posting something that you'll only regret after it's too late. Have a good day man!

[Mazze]

12 hours ago, Mogul said:

I think the main issue with Eternal is that it has potentially been over-gamified. You can call it a "combat puzzle", and it is fun and exciting and challenging, and it gets the blood pumping, but you're right, it is exhausting when there's pretty much one strategy to defeat several of the enemy types, and there are tons of them in every encounter. When the encounters come one after another, which, let's be real, is kind of the point of the game, and you're on UV or Nightmare, it starts to feel tiring. Not tiring, like, man, I'm bored. Tiring like, this is physically and mentally exhausting; how much are you going to put my adrenal glands through?

 

I'm currently on the Urdak level of Ancient Gods and this is exactly how I feel. Doom Eternal's main campaign was great in most places, but it did make me feel that I could only play in mostly 1-2 hour bursts due to the nature of the "combat puzzle" gameplay. Now with Ancient Gods I almost have to psyche myself up to play. Usually I stop playing because I've attempted one fight 2-3 times and just don't have the energy or interest to attempt it again, not because I have to make dinner or get some sleep.

 

The fights look fun and impressive, but I'm finding it much more difficult to actually enjoy them the same way. If I stray from the efficient way of dealing with each enemy then I'm either out of ammo for particular weapons (don't remind me of when I couldn't kill the spirit after a 5 minute fight), or I'm wounded to the point of no return. I can't think of a better word than "tedious" to describe the fights in this game. The continued emphasis of shooting enemies in certain weak spots doesn't make me feel clever or skilled, it makes me feel restricted and hamstrung. I actually think the revenants and mancubi are great in regards to weak spots - if you hit them, it feels like a bonus rather than a necessity. IMO they've gone too far with the new headshot-only enemy on Urdak and the turrets which can only be shot in the eye (for a limited time). I'd be very curious to know what percentage of people find these enemies fun to deal with, because I can only see them as being fun for those who found Nightmare a bit easy.

 

TL;DR: The Ancient Gods fights are more tedious and exhausting than they are challenging and exciting.

[Mr. Duk]

5 hours ago, Mazze said:

TL;DR: The Ancient Gods fights are more tedious and exhausting than they are challenging and exciting.

 

Yessir.

[Doom64hunter]

There's one thing that I really like about the DLC: not having to bother with collecting endless upgrades.

 

It feels much better to just be able to play the game with the tools you know and have.

[Mr. Duk]

22 minutes ago, Doom64hunter said:

There's one thing that I really like about the DLC: not having to bother with collecting endless upgrades.

 

I *do* completely agree with you on this! I still think upgrades are cool for a major campaign, but maybe they go a littttllleeee too far with it. It's nice to start a game where you don't feel under-powered and the difficulty escalates through encounters, kinda like classic Doom.

[Gez]

On lundi 2 novembre 2020 at 3:07 PM, Mogul said:

I think the main issue with Eternal is that it has potentially been over-gamified.

I think that's the thing I dislike the most about the new Doom titles. Lots of decisions that make perfect sense and that I entirely understand why they did it from a game design standpoint, but that just feel a bit too arbitrary. Mostly the loot piñata monsters as the primary mechanism for resource replenishment. Yes it's a good way to encourage the aggressive, always-moving, close contact combat of the game but then we get to a situation where boss fights always have to have some shambling harmless respawning zombie around so that you can refill on health, ammo, and armor and it just feels a bit too artificial. Or stuff like why is the chainsaw for ammo and the flamethrower for armor and not the reverse or something? There's no logic to it besides game logic.

[Mr. Duk]

13 hours ago, Gez said:

There's no logic to it besides game logic.

 

Yeah, I think it's a balancing act and Eternal just goes a liiittttllleeee too far in one direction. I really hate that you literally can't kill enemies with the flame belch. It just makes no sense.

[NeoWorm]

I didn't watched the thread last few days, something got deleted I pressume and I don't know if you wer talking about me or not. It doesn't matter. I think my Main issue with @jazzmaster9 is exactly this:

On 11/2/2020 at 7:13 PM, jazzmaster9 said:

Well I guess we just gotta agree to disagree here. I Just think Doom Eternal is everything I wanted in a modern Doom game.

Because this is your very subjective position and you have hard time even acklowledging that for many people it's not the case at all.

 

16 hours ago, Gez said:

I think that's the thing I dislike the most about the new Doom titles. Lots of decisions that make perfect sense and that I entirely understand why they did it from a game design standpoint, but that just feel a bit too arbitrary. Mostly the loot piñata monsters as the primary mechanism for resource replenishment. Yes it's a good way to encourage the aggressive, always-moving, close contact combat of the game but then we get to a situation where boss fights always have to have some shambling harmless respawning zombie around so that you can refill on health, ammo, and armor and it just feels a bit too artificial. Or stuff like why is the chainsaw for ammo and the flamethrower for armor and not the reverse or something? There's no logic to it besides game logic.

This is major part of why I hate the combat in Eternal. They went way too far with mechanics that force player to play aggressively and only aggresivelly. Pretty much limiting the gameplay to one single playstyle that gets old really fast for a lot of people. Only people who are lucky enough to enjoy this exact type of gameplay can enjoy the game fully. Everybody else is punished severely. Plus it's also a reason why they had to add the platforming sequences, because they needed to break the chain of monotone combat arenas with something, anything. They forgot that game design is not only about moment to moment gameplay, but it has to work through the whole game. Eternal gamedesign is objectively flawed in this way and they know it, because it's also full of bandaids that try and fail to fix these flaws.

Edited November 5, 2020 by NeoWorm

[BetaMarine]

2 hours ago, NeoWorm said:

@jazzmaster9 is exactly this:

Because this is your very subjective position and you have hard time even acklowledging that for many people it's not the case at all.

 

Only people who are lucky enough to enjoy this exact type of gameplay can enjoy the game fully. Everybody else is punished severely.
 

Eternal gamedesign is objectively flawed in this way and they know it, because it's also full of bandaids that try and fail to fix these flaws.

So you just said that there are people who might enjoy the game due to its intense and aggressive gameplay and those who don’t enjoy it for that reason alone, basically saying that different people enjoy different things. What makes me confused is how you turned a 180 and said “nah the game’s objectively flawed because of intense, moment to moment gameplay”. I’m just confused. You accepted the fact that there are people who enjoy that sort of thing but you also state it being un-fun repetitive or boring? I’m baffled.

[jazzmaster9]

22 hours ago, NeoWorm said:

Because this is your very subjective position and you have hard time even acklowledging that for many people it's not the case at all.

 

I understand very well that everyone has a very subjective view on this game. I have no issues acknowledging that.  People can like or dislike what they want, but to call something  objectively bad is  because you don't like it, is something I will always find silly.

 

I never claimed Doom Eternal is objectively perfect ^{(in fact i do have issues with the Purple Sludge, the lack of challenge with the Archvile and Cyberdemon and no mod support)} because, For me, it's never a question of is Eternal objectively good or bad, Its whether or not Eternal is the Doom game you wanted.

 

Doom 3 is has very little of what I find enjoyable in Doom, but I won't dare say its a "Bad" game just because it has non of the qualities I like in a Doom game, its just not for me. I find the shotgun crap, but I understand why its range is so limited and I won't fault the game for trying to be balanced.

 

You"ll never hear me say. john carmack knows nothing of making a real doom game or its just jumpscares and cringy villains, why can't thay do it like i want?

which is not what I see from some posters here.

 

but anyway this is my stance on all of these. and I don't see it changing.

Edited November 6, 2020 by jazzmaster9

[Hunting4r2d2]

7 hours ago, Mr. Duk said:

Yeah, I think it's a balancing act and Eternal just goes a liiittttllleeee too far in one direction. I really hate that you literally can't kill enemies with the flame belch. It just makes no sense.

I mean, Hell is an incredibly hot environment, and some demons even have lava for blood, so it would make sense that a weapon that only spurts out fire would be rather ineffective at actually dealing damage to them.

[Mr. Duk]

19 hours ago, Hunting4r2d2 said:

I mean, Hell is an incredibly hot environment, and some demons even have lava for blood, so it would make sense that a weapon that only spurts out fire would be rather ineffective at actually dealing damage to them.

 

That would be clever except it's this way for ALL enemies, even the zombie soldiers. But definitely would be cool if it did nothing (or even strengthened) Barons but could kill zombies and the shield guys and so forth.

[NeoWorm]

On 11/5/2020 at 12:53 PM, BetaMarine said:

Sdidn't do that.o you just said that there are people who might enjoy the game due to its intense and aggressive gameplay and those who don’t enjoy it for that reason alone, basically saying that different people enjoy different things. What makes me confused is how you turned a 180 and said “nah the game’s objectively flawed because of intense, moment to moment gameplay”. I’m just confused. You accepted the fact that there are people who enjoy that sort of thing but you also state it being un-fun repetitive or boring? I’m baffled.

No, I say that Eternal is flawed game that needlessly punishes people that don't fit its very narrow fun factor and that DooM 2016 didn't do that, neither did original DooM. And the people that fit the exact playstyle just don't understand the flaws and how severe they are for other people. When player doesn't fit the style you had in mind and finds a way to avoid it, good designer will enable this and build upon it, bad designers will punish player for it. Eternal is the latter and that is objectively bad approach. I could continue but I would be repeating myself. If you didn't only try to find some catch in what I am saying that you can use to try to invalidate what I am saying, but tried to understand, you would probably didn't have to ask.

[Super Mighty G]

4 hours ago, NeoWorm said:

When player doesn't fit the style you had in mind and finds a way to avoid it, good designer will enable this and build upon it, bad designers will punish player for it. Eternal is the latter and that is objectively bad approach. 

I would argue this is a grey area. I haven't played Eternal on ITYTD but I would assume it's more forgiving than HMP or UV. DE's style is frenetic but I've never understood players who say they feel railroaded into playing a certain way because I never feel that. You are encouraged to play efficiently to maintain an advantage and if you refuse to play ball on the easiest skill I would argue the game isn't for you, not that it is inherently flawed. You don't try to play basketball with your feet. Yes it is mechanically demanding, but so is Sekiro. If you can't or won't try to meet the learning curve then move on. Don't complain that you can't circumvent the game's bar of entry. It reminds me of people that complain when they think they are in the wrong matchmaking bracket of a game. Then they get surprised when they get blown up when they're artificially placed in a higher skill bracket. 

Edited November 7, 2020 by Super Mighty G

[Archvile Hunter]

4 hours ago, NeoWorm said:

When player doesn't fit the style you had in mind and finds a way to avoid it, good designer will enable this and build upon it, bad designers will punish player for it. Eternal is the latter and that is objectively bad approach.

I just can't agree with this. Not every game has to allow the player to "play their own way", and saying a game is objectively badly designed because it doesn't accommodate a wide variety of playstyles is absurd. It's like going to play football (soccer) and complaining that you can't pick up the ball with your hands. Many modern games embrace player freedom to a large degree. AAA open world games are often called sandboxes for this reason.

 

Doom Eternal is not a sandbox, it's a dance floor with the demons as your dance partners. You are allowed to freestyle within this dance of death's parameters, but if the demons don't like your moves, you die. That is not bad design, it's just how the game works.

[BetaMarine]

5 hours ago, NeoWorm said:

No, I say that Eternal is flawed game that needlessly punishes people that don't fit its very narrow fun factor and that DooM 2016 didn't do that, neither did original DooM. And the people that fit the exact playstyle just don't understand the flaws and how severe they are for other people. When player doesn't fit the style you had in mind and finds a way to avoid it, good designer will enable this and build upon it, bad designers will punish player for it. Eternal is the latter and that is objectively bad approach. I could continue but I would be repeating myself. If you didn't only try to find some catch in what I am saying that you can use to try to invalidate what I am saying, but tried to understand, you would probably didn't have to ask.

If you want to criticize things objectively, atleast do it right. Different and demanding style doesn’t mean bad. If you played a tactical shooter the same way you play Doom ‘16 it wouldn’t be possible, because that’s not the type of game it’s going for. Objectively criticizing things is taking into account what the game sets out to do. If the game wants a specific and hard playstyle that doesn’t allow “”player freedom”” or so you say, that doesn’t make it bad. What I’m understanding is that playing Doom Eternal the same way as ‘16 is both possible and not possible but objective qualities is more than “playing the same way as something else” or “the playstyle needs to be like this”. It’s about execution most of the time.