The Ancient Gods -- review from someone who DIDN'T like it

[Cacodemon345]

2 hours ago, icecoldduke said:

Give me a traditional shoot the shit out of everything experience, stop trying to slow down my movement, let me be as OP as possible, that's what Doom is. 

Serious Sam is for you then I guess...

[icecoldduke]

2 hours ago, Super Mighty G said:

Says who? Also Plutonia says hi. 

Plutonia wasn't made by id software(wasn't it made by two brothers?). The number of units it sold probably wasn't anywhere close to Doom 1 or Doom 2. It catered to a specific hardcore audience, and went against the design of the original game in places(invisible bridges). 

 

Id Software screwed up the design of Eternal because it catered the game towards the hardcore niche. Some people are so good at first person shooters, they need the pink ooze to force them to alter the way they play. The rest of us don't need that. I don't need the designers to slow down my gameplay, I can do that all by myself :P. 

[icecoldduke]

2 hours ago, Cacodemon345 said:

Serious Sam is for you then I guess...

The answer isn't to send long time paying customers to another game. It seems like you should be able to disable the slow down mechanic of the ooze(as a cheat code or as a gameplay option), there's no reason to force that mechanic on. 

[Taurus Daggerknight]

I never played much of Plutonia myself, so anything I say about Doom's difficulty is coming from someone who pretty much only played Ultimate Doom, Doom 2, Doom 64, Doom 3, Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal. 

 

With this noted...

4 hours ago, icecoldduke said:

@Archvile Hunter The entire point of Doom is to humilate everything in your path. Doom is supposed to be an easy game. Doom is supposed to be a game were you blow the shit out of all the demons that stand in the way between you, the keycards, and the exit. That's it. It seems a lot of the hardcore gamers out there like the new additions to Eternal, and that's fine, but I'm not a hardcore gamer, and I'd argue most of the Doom players out there, aren't hardcore gamers either. 

 

The reason we are having this discussion, is Doom eternal is not moddable. You can't make custom levels, so players are stuck with the content id software shoveles out for the game.

 

I personally don't like were Doom is going. Give me a traditional shoot the shit out of everything experience, stop trying to slow down my movement, let me be as OP as possible, that's what Doom is. 

 

I do not understand the above sentiment. I wont say that Doom has always been ultra hardcore, but it's never been a simple path to the end where it's never thrown you in some pretty daunting spaces. Doom 2 in particular is full of some big middle-finger-to-the-player moments (I remember the first time I played Dead Simple as a kid, and the following level, practically had my eyes bugling out, among other zones that were pretty challenging the first few times). In fact, one of the big arguments around that I actually agree with (as much as I love Eternal) is that the whole "superhero marine" vibe of Eternal is kind of at odds with a lot of Ultimate Doom, Doom 2, Doom 64 and 3. I think there's room for it myself, but I don't think I ever felt so empowered in any level of classic Doom; it was always a knifes edge for me personally. 

 

I'd also actually argue that while Eternal is damn challenging, it's not -that- hardcore in its challenge, depending on your selected difficulty. Yeah, if you're playing UV/ Nightmare and all, it'll be hard....which is the point of those difficulty levels. And yes, the Master Levels and Ancient Gods are balls-to-the-walls tough....which is also the point. Expansions of older games were always this kind of a hike once upon a  time. The base game though? Tough, but not impossibly so, and again; this is coming from someone who is not nearly the sharp-shooter he -almost- was back in school (which is to say; I was never a top of the line shooter, and now I'm less so).

[icecoldduke]

@Archvile Hunter If your point is doom has always been a game tailored towards hardcore players, which is a niche audience, why cater the experience of Eternal towards the hardcore of the hardcore audience? Your favoring a niche of niche above the rest. 

[Super Mighty G]

45 minutes ago, icecoldduke said:

Plutonia wasn't made by id software(wasn't it made by two brothers?). The number of units it sold probably wasn't anywhere close to Doom 1 or Doom 2. It catered to a specific hardcore audience, and went against the design of the original game in places(invisible bridges). 

 

Id Software screwed up the design of Eternal because it catered the game towards the hardcore niche. Some people are so good at first person shooters, they need the pink ooze to force them to alter the way they play. The rest of us don't need that. I don't need the designers to slow down my gameplay, I can do that all by myself :P. 

So Plutonia doesn't count does it? What about Thy Flesh Consumed? You tell me Perfect Hatred is easy. The point is Doom isn't super easy. It just feels easy because we've all played it a million times.

 

Doom Eternal catering to a hardcore audience isn't a bad thing. Play on easy if you don't want the challenge. That's why it's there. And don't give me "but ultra violence is how it's meant to be played" because that's bullshit and you know it. 

Edited December 20, 2020 by Super Mighty G

[icecoldduke]

12 minutes ago, Super Mighty G said:

Doom Eternal catering to a hardcore audience isn't a bad thing. Play on easy if you don't want the challenge. That's why it's there. And don't give me "but ultra violence is how it's meant to be played" because that's bullshit and you know it. 

In my opinion(and quite a few others agree) that Doom's catering to the hardcore of the hardcore was a bad move. You and others in this topic are the hardcore of the hardcore, so you guys don't mind the difficultly, the ozze and the jumping garbage, but plenty of long time doom players hate it. This is a very subjective conversation, but what's bullshit is you(and others) discounting the opinions of long time doom players who are super critical of Doom Eternal. The hardcore of the hardcore shouldn't be driving the conversation. Frankly put you guys are in the minority.

 

Doom is supposed to be a super easy game, especially by today's standards. I've thrown quite a few of my son's friends at Doom 1 and 2(who haven't played it before) and they pick it up quickly and consider it a very super easy game. Doom 2016 was a super easy game. Doom Eternal should have basically been Doom 2016, with the Eternal visuals, with some of the enhanced gameplay. 

 

I also hated Eternal's multiplayer, I'm still playing Doom 2016 multiplayer. I like the traditional Doom experience, and Doom Eternal isn't the traditional experience anymore. They should have just made a brand new IP with the mechanics that you hardcore guys like. 

 

[Super Mighty G]

8 minutes ago, icecoldduke said:

In my opinion(and quite a few others agree) that Doom's catering to the hardcore of the hardcore was a bad move. You and others in this topic are the hardcore of the hardcore, so you guys don't mind the difficultly, the ozze and the jumping garbage, but plenty of long time doom players hate it. This is a very subjective conversation, but what's bullshit is you(and others) discounting the opinions of long time doom players who are super critical of Doom Eternal. The hardcore of the hardcore shouldn't be driving the conversation. Frankly put you guys are in the minority.

 

Doom is supposed to be a super easy game, especially by today's standards. I've thrown quite a few of my son's friends at Doom 1 and 2(who haven't played it before) and they pick it up quickly and consider it a very super easy game. Doom 2016 was a super easy game. Doom Eternal should have basically been Doom 2016, with the Eternal visuals, with some of the enhanced gameplay. 

 

I also hated Eternal's multiplayer, I'm still playing Doom 2016 multiplayer. I like the traditional Doom experience, and Doom Eternal isn't the traditional experience anymore. They should have just made a brand new IP with the mechanics that you hardcore guys like. 

 

I don't consider myself a hardcore player. I played Doom Eternal on UV and the Ancient Gods on HMP. I have never played Nightmare let alone Ultra Nightmare. I don't play PWADS like Sunder because I don't like the difficulty of slaughter maps. It's funny that you call this a subjective conversation then insist Doom is supposed to be easy. You also mention "quite a few" others who think the same way you do which I think is a falsehood.

 

Again, play on easy if you don't want a challenge. Doom Eternal is not so hard that easy is impossible for an average player. 

[icecoldduke]

43 minutes ago, Super Mighty G said:

I don't consider myself a hardcore player. I played Doom Eternal on UV and the Ancient Gods on HMP. I have never played Nightmare let alone Ultra Nightmare. I don't play PWADS like Sunder because I don't like the difficulty of slaughter maps. It's funny that you call this a subjective conversation then insist Doom is supposed to be easy. You also mention "quite a few" others who think the same way you do which I think is a falsehood.

 

Again, play on easy if you don't want a challenge. Doom Eternal is not so hard that easy is impossible for an average player. 

Let's look at this from another perspective. 

 

SteamDB for Doom Eternal:

https://steamdb.info/app/782330/graphs/

 

SteamDB for Doom 2016:

https://steamdb.info/app/379720/graphs/

 

Owner estimations we can take with a grain of salt, but according the SteamDB the sales numbers for Eternal and 2016 are about on par with each other(for PC), but based on those numbers, shipped units for both games is hovering around 5 million units on PC. 

 

Doom Eternal has a CCU(concurrent users) between 2.5k and 5k on PC. Doom 2016 in 2020 has about half of the CCU as Doom Eternal. This means even in 2020, 1200 to 2500 active Doom players are still playing Doom 2016 in 2020, which is impressive given the game is way beyond its shelf life. Why these people are playing Doom 2016 instead of Doom Eternal we can't say for certain, however history usually tells us when the sequal comes out, the previous game CCU usually hits close to zero if the squal is any good.

 

A solid indicator of how much a game has been played, is tracking the end game trophy, and how many players got it. In that case, Doom Eternal is the The Once and Future Slayer 37.8%. For Doom 2016 Knee-Deep in the Dead is the final trophy and that is at 33.1%. Which means more people completed the Doom Eternal campaign then the Doom 2016 campaign. Based on a 5million sales figure for both games, that equates to about 200,000 more people on PC completed the entire story in Doom Eternal. We don't know how many of those people completed the game inspite of the mechanics were talking about, or if they enjoyed the new mechanics, but there is some extrapolation to be had. 

 

All of these new mechanics, at best, only translated into 4% more of the user base completing the story over 2016. The question now is retention. There's not enough public data points to say how many of these users enjoyed the new mechanics, and how many of the 37.8% of players who completed the campaign, would enjoy similar mechanics in the next Doom game.

 

However the only thing I can say, is with Doom 2016 retaining half of of the CCU of Doom Eternal, years after its shelf life, that might be a pretty good indicator that a good portion of the community wasn't completly happy with Eternal. 

Edited December 20, 2020 by icecoldduke

[thewormofautumn]

On 12/19/2020 at 11:40 PM, Super Mighty G said:

You also notice he mentioned how hard it is to concentrate on playing and talking at the same time, which it is. People make fun of let's players for making stupid mistakes in games while trying to be entertaining without understanding how difficult it is. 

He made the game. This isn’t an everyday Twitch streamer, this is the game director. Half of it should be muscle memory 

[AtimZarr1]

1 hour ago, icecoldduke said:

However the only thing I can say, is with Doom 2016 retaining half of of the CCU of Doom Eternal, four years after its shelf life, that might be a pretty good indicator that a good portion of the community wasn't completly happy with Eternal.  

 

Not necessarily. There's too many other variables that could influence the CCU: some people might not be able to afford Doom Eternal yet or are newcomers who prefer to start with 2016 before moving on.

 

1 hour ago, icecoldduke said:

We don't know how many of those people completed the game inspite of the mechanics were talking about, or if they enjoyed the new mechanics, but there is some extrapolation to be had. 

 

All of these new mechanics, at best, only translated into 4% more of the user base completing the story over 2016.

 

An addition of 4% isn't exactly minor though. If the percentage of players who finished the campaign was less than Doom 2016's, then we could safely say the new changes were overall negative for the game. However, since the percent completed is not only matched, but higher - this suggests people, on a whole, prefer Eternal's gameplay over 2016. Keep in mind that according to howlongtobeat.com, Doom 2016's main story averages 11.5 hours and Doom Eternal averages 13.5 hours - people are less likely to finish Doom 2016 despite it being a slightly shorter game.

 

We can look at some other achievements as well to measure engagement:

 

Mastered all weapon mods - Doom Eternal (8.4%, Gunpletionist) and Doom 2016 (2.9%, IDKFA)

Collected all Codex entries - Doom Eternal (17.7%, If Only I Could Read) and Doom 2016 (4.4%, Historian)

Collected all toys - Doom Eternal (14.4%, Playset Sold Separately) and Doom 2016 (4.5%, Every Nook and Cranny)

 

---

 

8 hours ago, icecoldduke said:

The entire point of Doom is to humilate everything in your path. Doom is supposed to be an easy game. Doom is supposed to be a game were you blow the shit out of all the demons that stand in the way between you, the keycards, and the exit. That's it.

 

While Doom Eternal is a challenging game, it's not based out of nowhere for the franchise. Classic Doom is a simple game but I wouldn't call it easy. There's plenty of "difficult" elements of Classic Doom - Chaingunners, Revenants, Pain Elementals, Arch-Viles, inescapable death pits, Thy Flesh Consumed, poking fun at easier difficulties (I'm Too Young to Die), ambushes and traps from picking up an item, Spectres in darkened environments, the popularity of slaughter wads, etc. Episode 1 literally ends with Doomguy getting shredded by a demon ambush in pitch-black darkness - Classic Doom is not trying to be a game where you "humiliate everything in your path" or "blow the shit out of all the demons." It's an action-packed game that is willing to humble the player with a bit of cruel but toying malevolence.

 

A bit strangely, but I actually find Doom Eternal to be "easier" than Classic Doom because it's more forgiving. You can easily recover any lost health, armor, and ammo with the resource gain mechanics. You have double jump, double dash, and Meat Hook to avoid taking damage. You have two weapon mods for each gun, an insta-kill Chainsaw, an insta-kill Crucible, and almost insta-kill BFG, crowd control using Ice Bomb / Blood Punch, high damage output from quick-swapping - that most demons will melt if you use the right tools for the right job. The tricky part is Doom Eternal is a more complex game, which creates a relatively high skill floor - a player that doesn't know how to use all the new mechanics is going to have a very hard time.

 

Conversely, I actually have a really challenging time going through custom Classic Doom megawads that get added to the Unity Port. You can't recover health/armor/ammo on-demand - if you take damage or waste ammo, you better hope there's a pick-up soon. You could be starved at 10% health for a long time or unable to use the rocket launcher entirely for the next couple of rooms if you mismanage your resources. The only way to avoid attacks is to move to the side - better not get cornered by monsters because there's no Ice Bomb / Energy Shield / Blood Punch in Classic Doom to create breathing room. Getting boxed in usually spells death. Your only offensive tools are the eight weapons - there are no super insta-kill weapons or additional equipment or mechanics to keep applying pressure. The thing is Classic Doom is a "simpler" game so it's easier to grasp but you need to have a much more thorough understanding of the mechanics and gameplay present if you want to pistol-start on UV.

[icecoldduke]

You make some interesting points, but I think we can both look at the data and understand how we came to the conclusions we did. If id software chooses the Eternal model for the next game, the way to prove who's correct is going to be measuring the day 0 adaption rate, and compare it to Eternal and 2016. 

[Taurus Daggerknight]

2 hours ago, AtimZarr1 said:

 

A bit strangely, but I actually find Doom Eternal to be "easier" than Classic Doom because it's more forgiving. You can easily recover any lost health, armor, and ammo with the resource gain mechanics. You have double jump, double dash, and Meat Hook to avoid taking damage. You have two weapon mods for each gun, an insta-kill Chainsaw, an insta-kill Crucible, and almost insta-kill BFG, crowd control using Ice Bomb / Blood Punch, high damage output from quick-swapping - that most demons will melt if you use the right tools for the right job. The tricky part is Doom Eternal is a more complex game, which creates a relatively high skill floor - a player that doesn't know how to use all the new mechanics is going to have a very hard time.

 

Conversely, I actually have a really challenging time going through custom Classic Doom megawads that get added to the Unity Port. You can't recover health/armor/ammo on-demand - if you take damage or waste ammo, you better hope there's a pick-up soon. You could be starved at 10% health for a long time or unable to use the rocket launcher entirely for the next couple of rooms if you mismanage your resources. The only way to avoid attacks is to move to the side - better not get cornered by monsters because there's no Ice Bomb / Energy Shield / Blood Punch in Classic Doom to create breathing room. Getting boxed in usually spells death. Your only offensive tools are the eight weapons - there are no super insta-kill weapons or additional equipment or mechanics to keep applying pressure. The thing is Classic Doom is a "simpler" game so it's easier to grasp but you need to have a much more thorough understanding of the mechanics and gameplay present if you want to pistol-start on UV.

 

Yeah, that's kind of where I'm at too. Eternal is challenging as all heck, and I'm having an impossible time of Super Gore Nest Master Level on Classic Mode... but with that said? Eternal is far more "fair" in how easily you can recover from even catastrophic mistakes compared to the original games. In a good way, IMO, even if it comes at the expense of a tense, survivalist atmosphere. 

[Super Mighty G]

3 hours ago, thewormofautumn said:

He made the game. This isn’t an everyday Twitch streamer, this is the game director. Half of it should be muscle memory 

I like how you completely ignored my point. The host is talking with him and asking him questions that he has to try and answer while playing decently. I don't care who you are that is not easy to split your attention like that. 

Edited December 21, 2020 by Super Mighty G

[icecoldduke]

35 minutes ago, Super Mighty G said:

I like how you completely ignored my point. The host is talking with him and asking him questions that he has to try and answer while playing decently. I don't care who you are that is not easy to split your attention like that. 

I'm not sure if I agree with you. I've had to play a game I've been working on in front of a large audience(usually investors), and I rarely made mistakes, and I can talk through a presentation. This game is more difficult then it should be. 

[jazzmaster9]

13 hours ago, icecoldduke said:

The entire point of Doom is to humilate everything in your path. Doom is supposed to be an easy game.

Sounds like you never Played TNT or Plutonia ever or Even Episode 4 of Doom 1 which has the most difficult levels in the series.

 

13 hours ago, icecoldduke said:

I'd argue most of the Doom players out there, aren't hardcore gamers either. 

 

I would argue that most Doom Players are sick and tired of Boring and easy Corridor shooters that was been released ever since 2005.

7 hours ago, icecoldduke said:

Your favoring a niche of niche above the rest. 

 

And what has Catering to the masses ever done? Create easy cash grab games like Assassins' creed and Call of Warfare 6 made to sell as much as possible like 90% of AAA Games without any susbstance or direction because they are made to be as accessible as possible.

 

I'm Glad they are targeting niche just to prove that not ALL videos games are just something your 12 year old Call of Duty player can beat without dying, yet can still sell very well and garner positive praise.

 

7 hours ago, icecoldduke said:

plenty of long time doom players hate it.

Do you have statistics for this, or are you just making this up? because i have seen long time Doom players and Modders, including myself, who like the game.

 

The Game just isn't for you and that's fine, but don't spew this BS that Doom is suppose to be easy and that ALL games need to be Accessible to the masses.

 

Also and just in case you can TRY to weasel your way out, No I'm not part of the hardcore so you don't even try using the Silly "you're hardcore, so you like it." excuse because i'm probably one of the worst players out there.

Edited December 21, 2020 by jazzmaster9

[Taurus Daggerknight]

1 hour ago, icecoldduke said:

I'm not sure if I agree with you. I've had to play a game I've been working on in front of a large audience(usually investors), and I rarely made mistakes, and I can talk through a presentation. This game is more difficult then it should be. 

 

Eh...same experience here, and I can say that yeah, distractions matter. I've gotten beaten down in my own games just as easily, and that's in not-so-tough spots too. 

 

...granted, sometimes it was just pure glitches, but still :D . 

[Taurus Daggerknight]

47 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

i'm probably one of the worst players out there.

 

My crown, not yours! I can't even play Icon of Sin without mouse-look... 

 

EDIT: Also get disoriented without standard controls like jump, crouch....

Edited December 21, 2020 by Taurus Daggerknight

[icecoldduke]

1 hour ago, jazzmaster9 said:

Do you have statistics for this, or are you just making this up? because i have seen long time Doom players and Modders, including myself, who like the game..

See my post above.

 

Quote

The Game just isn't for you and that's fine, but don't spew this BS that Doom is suppose to be easy and that ALL games need to be Accessible to the masses.

That's how you make money. Hardcore of the hardcore audience is a very small niche, and there isn't enough profit there to make a game that tailors towards that audience. It's just math.

 

Quote

And what has Catering to the masses ever done? Create easy cash grab games like Assassins' creed and Call of Warfare 6 made to sell as much as possible like 90% of AAA Games without any susbstance or direction because they are made to be as accessible as possible.

False Equivalence

[Taurus Daggerknight]

10 hours ago, icecoldduke said:

See my post above.

 

That's how you make money. Hardcore of the hardcore audience is a very small niche, and there isn't enough profit there to make a game that tailors towards that audience. It's just math.

 

False Equivalence

 

Dark Souls, Seikuro, XCOM and...well, Doom, all say hi!

Edited December 21, 2020 by Taurus Daggerknight

[jazzmaster9]

3 hours ago, icecoldduke said:

See my post above.

Ive seen it and i Don't buy it. they are still Doom weather you like it or not

 

3 hours ago, icecoldduke said:

That's how you make money. 

You can make money by making good games.  Dark Souls and and Sekiro is a perfect example of Hard games becoming successful.

making accessible games that caters to no one makes money at first, but then ultimately dies quickly since people find no value with them.

Again look at what Joke Assassins' Creed and the Call of Duty games have become by catering to the mass demographic. It's Just Logic.

 

3 hours ago, icecoldduke said:

Hardcore of the hardcore audience is a very small niche, and there isn't enough profit there to make a game that tailors towards that audience. It's just math.

The Fact they made the DLC even hardest says otherwise, if that were truly the case, the DLC would have been made easier to compensate the criticism of being too difficult. 

 

3 hours ago, icecoldduke said:

False Equivalence

Nope, cause and effect. Sorry I had to be the one to give you the reality of the gaming industry.

 

Doom just isn't for you and that's fine. But I guess you had to justify you being bad at games as "Bad design"

 

But anyway I don't think Id has any intention in changing the games direction, they are doing pretty well for themselves, so sucks to be you.

 

Edited December 21, 2020 by jazzmaster9

[icecoldduke]

11 hours ago, icecoldduke said:

Let's look at this from another perspective. 

 

SteamDB for Doom Eternal:

https://steamdb.info/app/782330/graphs/

 

SteamDB for Doom 2016:

https://steamdb.info/app/379720/graphs/

 

Owner estimations we can take with a grain of salt, but according the SteamDB the sales numbers for Eternal and 2016 are about on par with each other(for PC), but based on those numbers, shipped units for both games is hovering around 5 million units on PC. 

 

Doom Eternal has a CCU(concurrent users) between 2.5k and 5k on PC. Doom 2016 in 2020 has about half of the CCU as Doom Eternal. This means even in 2020, 1200 to 2500 active Doom players are still playing Doom 2016 in 2020, which is impressive given the game is way beyond its shelf life. Why these people are playing Doom 2016 instead of Doom Eternal we can't say for certain, however history usually tells us when the sequal comes out, the previous game CCU usually hits close to zero if the squal is any good.

 

A solid indicator of how much a game has been played, is tracking the end game trophy, and how many players got it. In that case, Doom Eternal is the The Once and Future Slayer 37.8%. For Doom 2016 Knee-Deep in the Dead is the final trophy and that is at 33.1%. Which means more people completed the Doom Eternal campaign then the Doom 2016 campaign. Based on a 5million sales figure for both games, that equates to about 200,000 more people on PC completed the entire story in Doom Eternal. We don't know how many of those people completed the game inspite of the mechanics were talking about, or if they enjoyed the new mechanics, but there is some extrapolation to be had. 

 

All of these new mechanics, at best, only translated into 4% more of the user base completing the story over 2016. The question now is retention. There's not enough public data points to say how many of these users enjoyed the new mechanics, and how many of the 37.8% of players who completed the campaign, would enjoy similar mechanics in the next Doom game.

 

However the only thing I can say, is with Doom 2016 retaining half of of the CCU of Doom Eternal, years after its shelf life, that might be a pretty good indicator that a good portion of the community wasn't completly happy with Eternal. 

I'll repost this again for @jazzmaster9

 

Quote

Sorry I had to be the one to give you the reality of the gaming industry.

But anyway I don't think Id has any intention in changing the games direction, they are doing pretty well for themselves, so sucks to be you.

I've worked in the game industry for over 12 years, don't try that card with me. Stop trying to make this discussion toxic. 

Edited December 21, 2020 by icecoldduke

[thewormofautumn]

8 hours ago, Super Mighty G said:

I like how you completely ignored my point. The host is talking with him and asking him questions that he has to try and answer while playing decently. I don't care who you are that is not easy to split your attention like that. 

No I didn’t miss your point, I watched the entire video including the part where they discussed that.

I’m saying a game director is not a random streamer. He or she is the director. Just like a movie director, they know everything about their game. They don’t have to know the technical details of every department (a movie director doesn’t have to know every rule and nuance of the costume department) but he or she knows their movie inside out because they directed it.

same here. I don’t care if a random streamer misses the green flashy lights but I find it funny (yes, funny hence my initial laugh) that the director missed it in his own game regardless of whether he’s taking to someone else about it because it’s his own creation 

 

 

[jazzmaster9]

1 hour ago, icecoldduke said:

I've worked in the game industry for over 12 years

Then you should know very well how much mass pandering has degraded AAA game quality in the past decade.

 

Sure games that are accessible to the masses will sell very well, but the overall product will always be lacking substance since they don't know who to cater to and just want the player to feel good and win instead of work for their victory.

 

Dom deciding to be more catered to the Hardcore is the best thing that can happen right now since it proves you don't have to pander to the masses to succeed. 

Edited December 21, 2020 by jazzmaster9

[icecoldduke]

3 hours ago, jazzmaster9 said:

Then you should know very well how much mass pandering has degraded AAA game quality in the past decade.

I've worked on many AAA games over the years and I don't agree with that at all. I think your conflating "mass pandering" with games that are simply rushed out the door, made by developers who were overworked due to understaffing and over scoping. 

 

Quote

Dom deciding to be more catered to the Hardcore is the best thing that can happen right now since it proves you don't have to pander to the masses to succeed. 

Doom 2016 still retaining half the CCU of Doom Eternal is potential evidence to the contrary. Doom Eternal moving 5 million units doesn't mean much, because its Doom. Doom is going to move more then a million units, because you put the name Doom on the box. The question going forward is player retention, especially if they choose the same recipe for the next Doom game. People going back to Doom 2016 is evidence of bad player retention, but we'll know for certain when the next Doom game drops and see what the day 0 sales are. 

Edited December 21, 2020 by icecoldduke

[Kronecker–Capelli]

On 12/19/2020 at 3:40 PM, Super Mighty G said:

People make fun of let's players for making stupid mistakes in games while trying to be entertaining without understanding how difficult it is.  

Depends from the person. I able to play in slaughterlike wads AND talk on the phone how behavior tree works at the same time.
I also use this thing, since I have tablet instead of phone, bit I doubt it makes me superior to the streamers with headphones and other "streamable" stuff. Mostly because headset holds on its own and I should hold it near ear with shoulder.

Spoiler

 

[whatup876]

I feel like the purple slime could have been treated like an hazard you had to avoid and maybe even make it, so the radsuit of all things, makes you resist it.

Or even an ability of an enemy like another type of Cybermancubi-like projectiles.

[Super Mighty G]

6 hours ago, thewormofautumn said:

No I didn’t miss your point, I watched the entire video including the part where they discussed that.

I’m saying a game director is not a random streamer. He or she is the director. Just like a movie director, they know everything about their game. They don’t have to know the technical details of every department (a movie director doesn’t have to know every rule and nuance of the costume department) but he or she knows their movie inside out because they directed it.

same here. I don’t care if a random streamer misses the green flashy lights but I find it funny (yes, funny hence my initial laugh) that the director missed it in his own game regardless of whether he’s taking to someone else about it because it’s his own creation 

 

 

I still disagree completely. There are more factors to consider than just saying "he's the director" and leave it at that. Yes he should know the game better than anyone, but other factors must be considered.

[Azuris]

On 10/22/2020 at 1:58 AM, jamondemarnatural said:

This difficulty ramp up remind me of old game expansions, where it's was "okay you beat the game in hard, not this would be 3x harder"

Yeah, im talking about you plutonia at 2001 only keyboard old me. This Expansion know it's have a limited time in comparation of the whole campaing, so making this more hard and finally being like a classic doom map (The begining it's literaly a PWAD begin).

But im with you point on this it's Eternal 3x

 

Absolutly, this is what i felt playing the Ancient Gods.

It feels like a third Party Developer tried to mimick what made Eternal good, but did it in a cheap Way.

 

I even like the Idea with the Spirits, but the Level Design feels unpolished and also if they just throw more Enemies in to make it harder.

 

In the Base Game it seemed that they planed and thought out when which Demon will spawn.

In the Expansion it didn't.

 

Also spawning hard Enemies in small "corridors" is bad Game Design, it even is in the Classic Dooms and separates bad from good WADs.

 

I love the Base Game, but just can't stand the Expansion.

 

[Archvile Hunter]

1 hour ago, Azuris said:

 

Absolutly, this is what i felt playing the Ancient Gods.

It feels like a third Party Developer tried to mimick what made Eternal good, but did it in a cheap Way.

 

I even like the Idea with the Spirits, but the Level Design feels unpolished and also if they just throw more Enemies in to make it harder.

 

In the Base Game it seemed that they planed and thought out when which Demon will spawn.

In the Expansion it didn't.

 

Also spawning hard Enemies in small "corridors" is bad Game Design, it even is in the Classic Dooms and separates bad from good WADs.

 

I love the Base Game, but just can't stand the Expansion.

 

I have to disagree about the DLC level design having worse design that the campaign, I would actually say it's the other way around. While still fun, the enemy compositions during arena fights and their placement in incidental encounters feels arbitrary at many points later in the game. In Final Sin, they really just throw a hodgepodge of every demon type at you at once in large open areas. Not exactly the pinnacle of creativity.

 

The DLC encounters feel so much more deliberate and thought out. Usually there are only a couple of different heavy demon types in play at once, and it gives every arena encounter much more distinct "phases" of combat, there's a better flow to each individual encounter.

 

I also thoroughly believe that "good level design" is about restricting the player in various ways through the course of the level. Creative use of level geometry or environmental hazards are just as important for good encounter design as the composition of enemies. In the base campaign, Tyrants are mostly a non-issue. They are always encountered in large open areas, where it's easy to circle around them.

 

When the DLC spawns a Tyrant in a small corridor you suddenly can't just circle him to death, and this restriction asks the player to think of what to do now that this option has been taken away.

 

It holds true in Classic Doom as well. Fighting a Cyberdemon in a wide open space is boring, but put him in a tight space and he suddenly becomes much more dangerous, and consequently much more engaging to fight.

Edited December 21, 2020 by Archvile Hunter