Doom 64 most advanced vanilla doom

[P41R47]

 

I was looking to all the neat maps that are out there for Doom 64 (Ex or Remaster compatible) and i thought "This is the most advanced vanilla Doom, why it isn't use as a base for a more advanced limit removing or boom format?".

Yeah, i know, Doom 64 was just rereleased this year.

But seeing how awesome and advanced things could be made on Doom 64 it would be awesome to make a more advanced source port around it.

 

I think Boom64 or MBF64 could be something really interesting to see.

Maybe even porting the code of the missing monsters.

And since PWADS could be made, there coud be chances of using the original assets to make a PC recreation of PSX Doom on it.

 

But well, maybe ANOTHER mapping format and ANOTHER source port (specially having GZDoom that can replicate almost all Doom 64 features pefectly) will be bothersome.

 

Just an idea i had.

What do you think, people?

 

Edited October 22, 2020 by P41R47

[Gez]

39 minutes ago, P41R47 said:

I was looking to all the neat maps that are out there for Doom 64 (Ex or Remaster compatible) and i thought "This is the most advanced vanilla Doom, why it isn't use as a base for a more advanced limit removing or boom format?".

Because it's not Doom.

 

It's Doom 64. Yes, it's the same franchise and the same engine but it's still not the same game. One could argue that Hexen or Strife are the most advanced "vanilla" versions of the Doom engine, and look how much less popular they are than even Doom 1 as a mapping target.

 

There's also the fact we don't have the source code to Doom 64. Sure, we have Doom64 EX, but we know it's not the real thing, although based on reverse-engineering there's a lot of errors and approximations in it, which Kaiser himself admitted:

Quote

Demos now work, including the hidden hectic demo and intro map (there are some side-by-side comparison videos on youtube)

The timings of some executed scripted events were off by 1 frame. This is now corrected in the official release. Good examples are the blue key door in Breakdown and the scripted areas in Main Engineering. Compare the two and you’ll see what I mean.

Non-player objects have slower gravity (they fall down %25 slower than the player)

The entire original collision detection is now retained in this release, this includes all bugs (was needed for demos to sync correctly)

Projectiles fired from the player will immediately explode if the player is ~5 units away from a wall (not sure why Midway did this, but was needed for demos to work)

Monsters are now able to trigger linedef specials flagged as ‘death trigger’. Flag seemed to be multi-purpose, but monsters are now able to trigger the dart traps in Even Simpler

Logic for light strobing and glow effects were wrong – corrected in this release – also needed to make demos work

Logic for doors and platforms were wrong – ‘RaiseToNearest and RaiseAndChange’ were suppose to move at half the speed

Logic for perpetual platforms were wrong – Used a different randomization logic – needed to make demos work

Automap controls is now idential to the original (hold use button to pan around)

And we're not gonna get the corrected/updated source code either. Someone would have to take Doom64 EX, hope this list is exhaustive, and to work addressing all the bullet points.

 

And obviously there's the issue of map format support in editors. SLADE has some partial, unfinished support; Ultimate Doom Builder and Doom Builder X have no support at all. There's just the unmaintained Doom Builder 64 which is a fork of the old Doom Builder 2.

[P41R47]

6 hours ago, Gez said:

Because it's not Doom.

 

It's Doom 64. Yes, it's the same franchise and the same engine but it's still not the same game. One could argue that Hexen or Strife are the most advanced "vanilla" versions of the Doom engine, and look how much less popular they are than even Doom 1 as a mapping target.

 

There's also the fact we don't have the source code to Doom 64. Sure, we have Doom64 EX, but we know it's not the real thing, although based on reverse-engineering there's a lot of errors and approximations in it, which Kaiser himself admitted:

And we're not gonna get the corrected/updated source code either. Someone would have to take Doom64 EX, hope this list is exhaustive, and to work addressing all the bullet points.

 

And obviously there's the issue of map format support in editors. SLADE has some partial, unfinished support; Ultimate Doom Builder and Doom Builder X have no support at all. There's just the unmaintained Doom Builder 64 which is a fork of the old Doom Builder 2.

As you said, its not the same code, i understand that. And as always, thanks for pointing out the missconceptions ;)

 

But, well seeing what the Doom 64 engine can do, i think it would be interesting if someone take the time to work on Ex and fix all that is needed.

Althought that, its amazing what the DoomBuilder64 can make. Some maps i played are really cool.

 

D64 its a great improvement codewise, and it would be awesome if the Remaster, running perfectly on Kex3, has its own map builder (what editor Nightdive use to make the lost levels?), this way, surely more people will map for it.

 

Maybe @Edward850 knows if there is a plan to release some kind of map editor for the rerelease?

 

:)

 

Edited October 22, 2020 by P41R47

[Doomkid]

1 hour ago, P41R47 said:

I was looking to all the neat maps that are out there for Doom 64 (Ex or Remaster compatible) and i thought "This is the most advanced vanilla Doom, why it isn't use as a base for a more advanced limit removing or boom format?".

Well, as Gez essentially says, anything that isn't pure, unmodified Doom 1 / Doom 2 engine stuff is no longer vanilla. However, more Doom64 custom content would always be welcome. Doom Builder 64 is dated, but still works alright.

[P41R47]

Just now, Doomkid said:

Well, as Gez essentially says, anything that isn't pure, unmodified Doom 1 / Doom 2 engine stuff is no longer vanilla. 

Yeah, i should had been more specific.

What i tried to say its that its the most advanced still Doom official engine. Bad choice of wording it on the OP i realice now.

[Edward850]

6 hours ago, P41R47 said:

Maybe @Edward850 knows if there is a plan to release some kind of map editor for the rerelease?

Doom64 already has a compatible map editor which was used for the 2020 rerelease. We didn't use or make anything else to do it.

Edited October 22, 2020 by Edward850

[Immorpher]

On 10/22/2020 at 9:40 AM, Gez said:

There's also the fact we don't have the source code to Doom 64. Sure, we have Doom64 EX, but we know it's not the real thing, although based on reverse-engineering there's a lot of errors and approximations in it, which Kaiser himself admitted:

Ya the lack of source code has made it into a war over the past few decades in getting accurate recreation of Doom 64. Although with DZDoom (GEC Master Edition) and the Remaster being able to replicate playback of the Doom 64 demos quite well, I guess many could argue its close enough.

But on another front @Erick194 has been working on complete reverse engineering of the Doom 64 rom (where other projects were only partial). I wont spoil anything, but I have seen some exciting progress he has been making. I think concerning the Doom 64 engine, there is plenty of potential in its future regardless of accuracy path being chosen.

[Blastfrog]

On 10/22/2020 at 9:40 AM, Gez said:

And we're not gonna get the corrected/updated source code either.

I find that a little odd, is there some legal obstacle to that or are they simply uninterested?

[Erick194]

An interesting topic,  greetings @Blastfrog.

[Gez]

Legal obstacle I believe. I think the "Doom 64" part of the code (excluding Kex engine and third-party middleware) belongs to id Software, not Nightdive. And id Software doesn't seem to believe in open-sourcing anymore after Carmack left.

[P41R47]

hahaha maybe we can implore @Linguica again to convince an Id executive to release the source code of Doom 64

:P

[Gokuma]

Available for ONLY $324.99!

[P41R47]

8 minutes ago, Gokuma said:

Available for ONLY $324.99!

Reference to the limited physical run or i'm missing something?
I'm not around as always these days :/

[VonHeer]

I like this idea. I think some of you think it would be competing with "real" Doom. Whatever, I love a lot of the engine enhancements in Doom 64. 

[ZeroTheEro]

4 hours ago, P41R47 said:

Reference to the limited physical run

there, question answered.

[Redneckerz]

9 hours ago, P41R47 said:

hahaha maybe we can implore @Linguica again to convince an Id executive to release the source code of Doom 64

:P

Maybe he can contact John (I know, he is at Oculus now, yadada) and use his Carmack ''Force of Reckoning'' to wiggle some tails at iD.

[Immorpher]

It seems like Carmack was the most hands-on with Midway for the development of Doom 64. But I figured that the team at Midway were the primary ones who updated the code and kept the source. So when they went under, that code was lost with them. However, it is also likely that they sent Carmack the code, which he may have stored it somewhere.

[P41R47]

8 minutes ago, Immorpher said:

It seems like Carmack was the most hands-on with Midway for the development of Doom 64. But I figured that the team at Midway were the primary ones who updated the code and kept the source. So when they went under, that code was lost with them. However, it is also likely that they sent Carmack the code, which he may have stored it somewhere.

Hope this holds true as today and Carmack has it stored somewhere.

Who owns midway now?

Netherrealm ar making the new MK games, but i don't know if they bought all Midway or just the IP.

Edited October 27, 2020 by P41R47

[Immorpher]

1 hour ago, P41R47 said:

Hope this holds true as today and Carmack has it stored somewhere.

Who owns midway now?

Netherrealm ar making the new MK games, but i don't know if they bought all Midway or just the IP.

It seems they got split into various parts. Bethesda (or Zenimax) did buy parts of them as well. It was a mystery who had the Doom 64 IP for the longest time, but now that Bethesda was able to approve of the Remaster, it appears Bethesda owns parts of Midway concerning at least Doom 64, perhaps even Quake 64 and Doom PSX?

[P41R47]

57 minutes ago, Immorpher said:

It seems they got split into various parts. Bethesda (or Zenimax) did buy parts of them as well. It was a mystery who had the Doom 64 IP for the longest time, but now that Bethesda was able to approve of the Remaster, it appears Bethesda owns parts of Midway concerning at least Doom 64, perhaps even Quake 64 and Doom PSX?

Sometimes i made stupid questions out of the blue because why not?

hahaha

I just realice that if Bethesda remaster it, it was obvious that they got the IP.

So now Microsoft own the IP after buying Zenimax...

Hope they doesn't get obnoxiously stupids with their IP like Atari.

[Gokuma]

@everyone, I just thought it was funny how it used that price blown to a huge scale as a preview pic of that other thread.

[seed]

21 hours ago, P41R47 said:

Netherrealm ar making the new MK games, but i don't know if they bought all Midway or just the IP.

 

More likely than not just the MK IP, since they could also re-release older games in addition to making new titles, but I doubt they own more of it.

[P41R47]

10 minutes ago, seed said:

 

More likely than not just the MK IP, since they could also re-release older games in addition to making new titles, but I doubt they own more of it.

Not much versed on this as a poet would like, but, i'm understanding that IP holding and being able to make a rerelease are different things, right?

Now i'm little lost there hahaha.

[seed]

1 minute ago, P41R47 said:

Not much versed on this as a poet would like, but, i'm understanding that IP holding and being able to make a rerelease are different things, right?

Now i'm little lost there hahaha.

 

Well I'm no expert in legalese either, but to me it sounds like they own it all or at worst, most of it, if they can also re-release older games. There was that Arcade Kollection from years ago, for instance, and you can't really go back to do that if all you own is a limited license to make new games.

[P41R47]

3 minutes ago, seed said:

 

Well I'm no expert in legalese either, but to me it sounds like they own it all or at worst, most of it, if they can also re-release older games. There was that Arcade Kollection from years ago, for instance, and you can't really go back to do that if all you own is a limited license to make new games.

Ah got it!

Thanks for the clearing explanation.

 

I suspect a Doomslayer DLC character for the next MK :P

Strange they didn't do it by now.