Has This Game Become A Joke?

[A Nobody]

With the memes and skins it has, has it gone too far? They don't make the game bad of course, but other people would think the game is a joke as a result. I for one welcome it. It's like Timesplitters, where goofy fun is what the game's all about. Even though I'm not a fan of memes, it's nice to have weird stuff in a game with the seriousness being swept aside.

Edited October 24, 2020 by The Strife Commando

[Cacodemon345]

no

[Bauul]

A joke? No. Tongue-in-cheek? Always has been. 

Edited October 31, 2020 by Bauul

[Taurus Daggerknight]

No more than Doom has always had a bit of silliness thrown in, the grim dark Doom 3 included. 

[Doom64hunter]

I can tell you one thing that's a joke, and that's Battlemode, which these skins were made for.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Doom64hunter

[Super Mighty G]

There should really be more grounded things in Doom like Commander Keen, Turbo Turkey Puncher and Doomguy figures. 

[R1ck]

1 hour ago, Taurus Daggerknight said:

No more than Doom has always had a bit of silliness thrown in, the grim dark Doom 3 included. 

I don't really mind if it's dark souls style invasion like they did show in trailer but battlemode kinda threw me off tbh

[A Nobody]

1 hour ago, Taurus Daggerknight said:

No more than Doom has always had a bit of silliness thrown in, the grim dark Doom 3 included. 

The silliness was different in those games.

[Super Mighty G]

1 minute ago, The Strife Commando said:

The silliness was different in those games.

Explain how.

[Gokuma]

Doom Eternal has the most advanced graphics of them yet, but varies in seriousness.    There's more bright colors, colored indications though some can be toggled off, and sometimes a cartoonish quality.   It retains some dark serious designs of Doom 3 and Doom 2016 but obviously several enemies were redesigned to resemble their classic Doom versions however much more advanced.  More gruesome than ever is how you blow chunks of flesh off enemies down to the bone as you fight them, unlike previous games where they just got bloodier.   That actually quickly reminded of the original House of the Dead (though that's pretty old low res low poly early 3d) except not taking limbs off until you kill them.   Of course a lot of skins are really silly but you only see the slayer and weapons ones in single player if you choose to use them.   I'm also seeing common trends of modern games of even frivolous little card backgrounds and icons being prizes for gaining event challenge xp, but since I'm getting them between getting the skins I want, I select ones that look cool.   The game also purposely makes jokes about itself, mostly in the Slayer's fortress.

 

So basically everything everyone has said however disagreeing with each other is correct in some way.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Gokuma

[R1ck]

4 hours ago, The Strife Commando said:

I don't like the dev putting easter egg referencing a wholesome anime dog girl streamer because she had fun playing D64 and '16 in eternal now I'm heading to the forum to complain to some people that might have or might have not like it.

 

that's more like it

 

Edited October 23, 2020 by R1ck
somehow feel bad of being an asshole

[DSC]

2 minutes ago, R1ck said:

there's the gas, anyone got matches?

Just plasma it.

[TheMightyHeracross]

The Doom franchise has never taken itself too seriously anyway, as mentioned before. Doom 1 had the whole thing about you avenging your pet rabbit Daisy. Doom 2 had you shoot hanging Commander Keens. Doom 3 had Super Turbo Turkey Puncher 3. The silliness is "different" because the other games are like twenty years older.

Edited October 23, 2020 by TheMightyHeracross

[A Nobody]

38 minutes ago, R1ck said:

 

that's more like it

 

No, that's not more like it. That was unnecessary. I can't even express how I feel without someone bashing me for having an opinion.

Edited October 23, 2020 by The Strife Commando

[whatup876]

I think the reason why people fear Doom being seen as too silly is because they fear it's being liked ironically: Are you laughing with it or AT it?

It's kinda like with something like Yakuza getting more popularity and you have more people talking about the silly moments than the actual main story.

Specially when a lot of western games can range from irony poisoned humor to super serious cinematic experiences, so it's like a spectrum with Dream Daddy and TLOU part 2 on extreme sides.

I know some people that hate it when some of their favorite niche titles become popular because they fear some insecure/cynical hipster thinks he can only like something because "it's good because it's so bad" unless it's a cinematic PS4 exclusive or something.

 

It also happens that Doom became "self aware" but besides no series ever starting "self aware", it also depends on how it's done: It's like when a comedian does an Arnold Schwarzenegger impression and they always say "Hello i am ze Arnold Schwarzenegger" just to assure who they're impersionating, while doing a forced german accent and forgetting other figments of his natural speech.

I was thinking that maybe "self aware media" worked with Into the Spiderverse and Metal Gear Solid 4, but one is like a tribute to Spiderman that contrasts the MCU and also telling its own story, while the other is part of a series that always had its share of 4th wall breaks and did it in a serious way, to fit the world, meaning MGS' story will always be videogame-y, despite what people think.

 

It also happens that the new games borrow elements outside of Doom, like different media and memes, which can be worrying to some degree, but at the same time, also depends on WHICH elements, since it's a series carried by a fanbase that might as well be a part of it.

Speaking of which, i find FIREBLU memes interesting because they'd have to come from older fans, modders, mappers or just Doom nerds that care about weirdly specific trivia; So i can't see the new fans that do Doot and Isabelle crossovers care about FIREBLU until they see older fans do it.

 

Doom's cartoonyness was more of a B-movie (both in spirit and production) where it was like an 80's action movie where Doomguy had a terrible day on his job and suddenly, you see an abstract Hell with sci-fi elements and some horror bits.

It was a series that tried to feel 80's while having two or three elements that made it controverial in its time.

New Doom's cartoonyness is that of a Saturday Morning Cartoon where the one true "mature" element is violence and the developers wouldn't even mind it compare it to Disney.

Doomguy is treated like a superhero, while Hell is simpler and less abstract.

 

While the classics had intermission and manual texts with some campy dialouge, 2016/Eternal had most of its characters talking with some heavy "fantasy" dialouge, like when talking about prophecies in some "ancient wise English". (reminds me of Strife when one boss had some deep line and Blackbird was like "ugh i hate this type of double talk" or something)

Classics also had an outdated/"used future"/low-tech look while the new games are as sci-fi as they can get. (kinda like the difference between an old 80's comic book superhero suit and an MCU movie suit, which means even 2016/Eternal had their moments of thinking some stuff is a bit too silly for today's standards)

Music in 1/2 felt silly or just not as edgy as Mick Gordon's tracks meant to suit Doomguy's brutality, which also means Bobby's music is more suited to a variety of moments and moods.

 

Demon designs can depend: classic designs can be seen as silly (specially Caco) but if you look at some fanart or see the monsters in a hypothetical 80's movie with props, you can potentially make these designs eerie.

The classic Baron and Lost Souls also seem basic but they represent the Satanism inspiration behind the games and fit how demons can feel like mockeries of other species or symbolic to some degree. (or at least 80's metal covers)

New demons have an extremely detailed art style that, for some, can make them scarier or more demonic.

But at the same time, they can end up even more alien (like a monster that just coincidently looks like a demon) or more cartoony. (specially if it's an art style you'd associate with MOBAS or Blizzard titles or at least Darksiders)

And of course, so detailed, it can make them hard to memorize/draw, probably took a lot of painful effort from artists, could impact the game's filesize/engine and the amount of detail might as well have a connection with Eternal's arcade pick ups. (and the fact that some classic designs aren't faithfull, like Doomguy's face or the Soulsphere/Supercharge)

 

Beside the fact that 3 and 2016/Eternal feel like different extremes of Doom, they also don't carry or do things like classic did.

For some, classic Doom's identity feels empty or like an accident, but the fact we even argue about OG Doom ever having some elements not present in new titles only goes for its favor.

It's open and versatile, it results in discussion and even creativity in the fanbase, specially modding. (gets better when modders and fans explore the art style and make stuff fit, like a Doom expanded universe by fans)

3 and Slayer games feel like they "decided" what Doom is and take it to a certain path, so despite the expansion, they also feel restricted.

 

But even with the experimentation, there could also be needed barriers for Doom being too silly or too edgy.

 

Edit: Doom 3 also started the "demon biology study" bit and had some alien looking demons, but they also had their creative share of weirdness, like the Bruiser's computer screen mouth or the Revenant's transparent skin body over its bones.

Edited October 23, 2020 by whatup876

[Deimos]

the silliness of classic doom mostly stems from the fact the sprites aged badly, its tone was mostly badass and didn't ask itself if it had to be funny, it had funny elements just because it was fun for the devs to add some of these, it was never a gimmick of the game. nowadays people have very poor sense of nuance and don't seem to make the difference between tongue in cheek and full blown parody. These skins don't even fit the tone of the game. Elvis mancubbus is an eye sore for example next to Urdak... Also new id is too scared to be edgy, the 90's were edgy.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Deimos

[MattFright]

4 hours ago, Super Mighty G said:

Explain how.

 

I'm genuinely curious now, how do you see this being comparable to doom 1 and 2? I hope this doesn't come off as passive aggressive or anything, i'm genuinely curious as to how people see Doom Eternal's doomguy lines, hologram girl lines, the mancubus elvis skin, the doomguy unicorn skin and things of the like as something comparable to classic doom (1, 2, 64)'s sense of humor, because as far as i can tell, all of the humor and "tongue and cheek" (if you can even call it that) that was intentional and not a consequence of simply edgy 90s teenager metalhead culture, is all slapstick or gross humor (the imp's "mysterious dark orifice" on his death sprite, the "vague" orifices on the pain elemental and caco demon, the whole gibs mechanic, doomguy's portraits, etc), none of which are present in Eternal (or at least in cases like gibbing, not with the same intention).

[Gez]

The silly skins like hipster archvile or elviscubus are part of a long tradition of silliness in multiplayer.

 

The first time I played Quake multiplayer with friends in a cybercafé, the skins available included a cigar-chomping Santa Claus with a rocket-launcher, a dainty fairy with butterfly wings and a magic wand, a low-poly D&D beholder and I don't remember what else but it was a silly hodgepodge.

 

For classic Doom, you have a lot of silliness available here. And this goes beyond just skins. Need I remind people of the DWANGO soundtrack that's like half eurodance MIDI tunes? Or map packs like the 32-in-24 series? MP is not about seriousness and immersion.

 

The memes, as long as they're just obscure Easter eggs, are okay. Admittedly they went a bit far with the three Dopefish statues in Cultist Base...

[Gokuma]

@Deimos  I disagree with some of what you said but you're still mostly correct...  ;P    I actually think the Doom sprites are amazing and serious detail for their resolution.  It's just the resolution that's low as a sign of the times.   Look at Doom sprites compared to Street Alpha 2 which came years later in this goofy old ani-gif I made:

 

@Gez Gotta love some early work of the original Doom Legacy guys:  http://doomlegacy.sourceforge.net/wads/wads.shtml

Edited October 23, 2020 by Gokuma

[MattFright]

36 minutes ago, Gez said:

The silly skins like hipster archvile or elviscubus are part of a long tradition of silliness in multiplayer.

 

The first time I played Quake multiplayer with friends in a cybercafé, the skins available included a cigar-chomping Santa Claus with a rocket-launcher, a dainty fairy with butterfly wings and a magic wand, a low-poly D&D beholder and I don't remember what else but it was a silly hodgepodge.

 

For classic Doom, you have a lot of silliness available here. And this goes beyond just skins. Need I remind people of the DWANGO soundtrack that's like half eurodance MIDI tunes? Or map packs like the 32-in-24 series? MP is not about seriousness and immersion.

 

The memes, as long as they're just obscure Easter eggs, are okay. Admittedly they went a bit far with the three Dopefish statues in Cultist Base...

 

Ah, i guess i've overlooked that, myself not being into that kind of multiplayer being part of the issue :P

Though i feel like when it comes to singleplayer they did really miss the intentions behind the "narrative" (or what little of it there was) and the artstyle of classic doom, this topic really isn't the place for discussing this. Either way i appreciate the explanation.

[Deimos]

42 minutes ago, Gokuma said:

@Deimos  I disagree with some of what you said but you're still mostly correct...  ;P    I actually think the Doom sprites are amazing and serious detail for their resolution.  It's just the resolution that's low as a sign of the times.   Look at Doom sprites compared to Street Alpha 2 which came years later in this goofy old ani-gif I made:

Ok i'm a bit harsh, the sprites still look amazing, i love that they went with clay and Adrian Carmack's work is really something. When i say it looks silly i mean it looks silly to people who discovered it on the late. When i first played this on jag in 95 i was flabbergasted and almost scared(no music and this version is darker).  To me it looked "real".

[Super Mighty G]

 

1 hour ago, MattFright said:

 

I'm genuinely curious now, how do you see this being comparable to doom 1 and 2? I hope this doesn't come off as passive aggressive or anything, i'm genuinely curious as to how people see Doom Eternal's doomguy lines, hologram girl lines, the mancubus elvis skin, the doomguy unicorn skin and things of the like as something comparable to classic doom (1, 2, 64)'s sense of humor, because as far as i can tell, all of the humor and "tongue and cheek" (if you can even call it that) that was intentional and not a consequence of simply edgy 90s teenager metalhead culture, is all slapstick or gross humor (the imp's "mysterious dark orifice" on his death sprite, the "vague" orifices on the pain elemental and caco demon, the whole gibs mechanic, doomguy's portraits, etc), none of which are present in Eternal (or at least in cases like gibbing, not with the same intention).

 

You want to know what's goofy? This:

 

Not 90's metalhead humor? Can you really say that for sure? People forget. Doom was made by a bunch of 20 somethings listening to metal in a small office in Texas. I doubt anything in the game was made with an intention beyond "this looks cool/this is funny". Do you actually know how the Icon of Sin came about? Some other staff thought it would be funny to put Romero's head in the level as a secret joke and Romero leaned into it by recording the reversed message.

 

Doom has never taken itself seriously.

Edited October 24, 2020 by Super Mighty G

[Deimos]

3 minutes ago, Super Mighty G said:

 

You want to know what's goofy? This:

 

Not 90's metalhead humor? Can you really say that for sure? People forget. Doom was made by a bunch of 20 somethings listening to metal in a small office in Texas. I doubt anything in the game was made with an intention beyond "this looks cool/this is funny". Do you actually know how the Icon of Sin came about? Some other staff thought it would be funny to put Romero's head in the level as a secret joke and Romero leaned into it by recording the reversed message.

 

Doom has never taken itself seriously.

i don't find this as goofy as the doom eternal skins or champagne head popping sounds. One sounds fun but badass, the other sounds like it's made for little ones.

Edited October 24, 2020 by Deimos

[Kyukon]

For the most part, my opinion is that it's all in good taste.  I do feel very minute parts have laid it on just a little too thick, and have one example to compare with.

 

All of the UAC Spokesperson announcements in Doom 2016 seemed to have that kind of Robocop or Starship Troopers style of tongue-in-cheek to them.  The messages were definitely evil, but it almost sounds like some random bystander might actually be fooled.

Eternal seemed to forgo that nuance and just make them very one-dimensionally evil.  Dr. Elena's logs were also just a little... too on the nose?  Then again, we did have Dr. Palpatine in Doom 3, so maybe I'm being too harsh. 

I also enjoyed the build a Doom Hunter tour.  I guess I just wish that we had a more consistent continuation of morally grey Hayden.

 

Outside of that, stuff like skins and references are all fine.  They just feel like eclectic additions, which people have been adding to classic Doom themselves for over 25 years.

[NoXion]

Maybe I just have a higher tolerance for goofiness, but the way I see it that kind of stuff is still just dressing around the edges. It's not like the central premise of Doom Eternal ever presents itself as some kind of farce. After killing the Hell priests and defeating the Khan Maykr, you finally fight the Icon of Sin in a climactic battle for the fate of the Earth itself and all life upon it. You're the one guy badass enough to stop the apocalypse.

From a gameplay perspective, the champagne popping sound is distinctive amongst the carnage, which is important for feedback and thus becoming more intimately familiar with the precise mechanics. So I can give that one a pass.

[MattFright]

29 minutes ago, Super Mighty G said:

Not 90's metalhead humor? Can you really say that for sure? People forget. Doom was made by a bunch of 20 somethings listening to metal in a small office in Texas. I doubt anything in the game was made with an intention beyond "this looks cool/this is funny". 

 

The issue here comes from blurring the line between funny and cool, two very different things. A lot of "edgy" things nowadays get made fun of because the author writes it as something that they perceive as cool and badass, but most people viewing it just laugh at how over the top and ridiculous it all is, and this is especially common in people nowadays discovering any form of media of the sort from one or two decades ago. I can see that point being made for daisy, but it really stops and ends there when we're comparing it to the humor in doom eternal's campaign. One is subtle and still believable, while also serving for characterization and (in the context of the doom 1 ending) shock value, while in doom eternal it's all out of place, clear-cut jokes.

[Egg Boy]

I like my games with a side of cheese, so I appreciate the goofier aspects of Doom Eternal. It almost reminds me of Resident Evil which is another series with goofier elements. When it comes to multiplayer skins, I wouldn't really count that, multiplayer is usually more humorous than the singleplayer (think: dance taunts in Call of Duty, custom skins in Quake).

[BluePineapple72]

One of the biggest inspirations for classic doom is Evil Dead 2. That movie is complete and total cheese and it is amazing. If anything, my problem with Eternal is that it feels too much like a power-trip comic-book rather than a goofy splatterhouse romp through hell

[Super Mighty G]

1 hour ago, MattFright said:

 

The issue here comes from blurring the line between funny and cool, two very different things. A lot of "edgy" things nowadays get made fun of because the author writes it as something that they perceive as cool and badass, but most people viewing it just laugh at how over the top and ridiculous it all is, and this is especially common in people nowadays discovering any form of media of the sort from one or two decades ago. I can see that point being made for daisy, but it really stops and ends there when we're comparing it to the humor in doom eternal's campaign. One is subtle and still believable, while also serving for characterization and (in the context of the doom 1 ending) shock value, while in doom eternal it's all out of place, clear-cut jokes.

Well I just played the first 3rd of the DLC and it was an atmospheric joy to go through. Felt like I was back in 2016. If you can't separate these kinds of experiences from the external goofiness then I'm sorry for you. 

Edited October 24, 2020 by Super Mighty G

[Doomkid]

Odd skins for Doom? You mean like the Energizer Bunny, Barney the Dinosaur, Stormtroopers, old west style cowboys, etc? I guess the big difference is that those skins weren’t officially endorsed, but people have been playing Doom with custom player (and monster) skins since the mid 90’s. In the vanilla exe everyone had to share the skin of course, but from 1998 on togglable skins for each player have been a thing. Goofy skins aren’t for everyone, but they go back almost to the beginning of Doom history. Granted, an option to override skins with a base player model is always a good thing to have (does Eternal have that? Skins don’t bother me in the slightest so I’ve never checked)