The Dean of Doom series (companion thread)

[Gibbon]

2 hours ago, baja blast rd. said:

Besides, though, this Intended Way stuff about games is kindergarten-tier discourse tbh. This part of the discussion should be overseen by a class that has the Delinquent as a TA. :P

 

Seems you're just putting fingers in your own ears at this point.

 

It is indeed very valid (despite if you think so or not) when a game is made originally with a very specific control set and a reviewer not using the original control scheme then says it is "easy" or "a breeze".  I can tell you, on an N64, this game was not a breeze at all, not with that control scheme.  Taking out a load a Barons with an SSG was pretty nerve racking since you couldn't just twitch your mouse with near perfect accuracy.  While I get it that most younger generations today never had or never used an N64 (since they weren't born yet), disregarding a valid point based on "this is how everyone today will play it" is meaningless, why?  Because you cannot change how the game was designed, like it or not, it was designed with a controller, not with a M+KB.  Grading the difficulty based on that is just pointless.

 

It would be like me calling Doom 1 / 2 difficult as hell after playing it on a 5" touchscreen phone.

[baja blast rd.]

I actually wasn't replying to you. I had glossed over the initial "your review doesn't really count because you didn't play it on a N64" post because it seemed like parody. (And this "younger generation" spiel is definitely continuing on that path.) 

 

Closing this thread for a while because I didn't create it to be r/TrueDoom and some of you are very disappointing.

 

~

 

edit:

 

A bit more elaboration: trying to discount someone's opinion based on the settings/parameters they played with is very silly. 

 

Sunlust is my favorite wad so I'll use it as an example here. You won't hear me say something like: 

 

"You played Sunlust on HNTR, of course you found it [whatever quality I want to disagree with], your review is skewed/invalid/bad." 

"You played Sunlust keyboard-only so of course you found it overly hard, it was designed for mousers and other Real control systems. Keyboarders should only play Sunlust on HNTR or HMP." 

 

Which some of the arguments in this thread are basically comparable to. 

 

That sort of disagreement that is not just a difference in perspective (which would be fine), it's being an asshole. 

 

And it's not even being an asshole with an interesting, as-of-yet-smelled stench. The whole "you didn't experience it the True Way" line of thought has been repeated tons of times in different guises in "gamer discourse" and is bad and entry-level toxic fandom and has zero insight to it. 

 

I welcome reviews of my cherished works of media on alternative settings (or settings I think of as "alternative"), because it's cool to have data points of different ways to experience things and learn more about how something might come across. 

 

Not to mention that the coolest types of engagement are often with Not Intended Settings.

 

I also don't put too much stock into what any one reviewer says so I don't feel any risk of that "alternative" review being the definitive review on the subject. Sunlust got only a C+ when played on an ATM? Big whoop.

 

I might reopen this around the next episode, but I'll make it clear that you and anyone else with similar takes should use this intermediary period to grow up, because you will get a vacation if you continue along those lines in here. 

[Biodegradable]

Since the other thread still hasn't been unlocked, I figured it was worth reviving this thread to continue discussing our favourite WAD review series from our favourite talking Mountain of Pain. It's another Sawed-Off WADs episode, which I for one really appreciate. There's so many smaller WADs that deserve a look by the Dean and I hope to see further installments over time. Check it out, guys!

 

 

Sidebar: Congratulations to @kwc for having your awesome Old Bean Factory map featured, fam. ;^)

Edited July 10, 2022 by Biodegradable

[xScavengerWolfx]

I watch that today and i feel like Mt. Pain had PTSD from swimming with whales lol

 

[baja blast rd.]

This was a great episode (one of my favorite). 

 

I've sometimes disagreed with the Memorable Maps engagement in episodes because it seems to miss the "historical importance" / "what people thought/felt about the map when it was fresh / then some years afterwards" angle (which was a necessary part of it being a celebration of Doom's history that fits in with 25 years of Doom). It's true that some maps haven't held up to 2020+ perspectives but focusing on that would have made it less a celebration of landmarks and what people loved and more a "hidden gems that have aged well + good modern maps" thing (more skewed towards the latter), which is a neat idea too, but just a different thing.

 

Everyone can very easily replace many maps with what they found more memorable or liked better, but that goes for anything. For example sometimes people say that Misri Halek is too high at #1, but idk what possibly makes sense over it and that would top how it shined in 2001-2009 (and I can say that even though I don't really love the map). (I don't think Mucus Flow goes over it.) This isn't really a thing about "objectivity," which doesn't exist; it's more that "collective historical subjectivity" has to be factored in rather than it being pure "personal subjectivity." (And a few of the ones I disagree with ironically are better maps but that weren't really all-that when they came out.)

 

I hope Man on the Moon got in there partly because of the Moonwad club, because if so, I have...suggestions.  

 

Also this can be the thread because I don't want to have to read every post or feel it's "my" thread.

[LadyMistDragon]

well,

7 minutes ago, baja blast rd. said:

Also this can be the thread because I don't want to have to read every post or feel it's "my" thread.

We'll just have to hope there's no more silly arguments about control schemes then ;P)

[Maribo]

Was delighted to see a Paul977 map make it into one of these videos, I can only hope that he also looks at Black Room and Silver Edge in the future. (or Nova 3, perhaps?)

 

[Roofi]

Congrats @Yugiboy85 for your A+ ! :)

[LadyMistDragon]

Deus Vult is definitely not all that accessible if you're into the smoothed-out combat of Skillsaw, but I actually thought the red area was really cool and forces you to adjust your strategy. The cultural references may be a little outdated, but I think that's missing the point. This was made in a period before everything was patterned after ribbiks and skillsaw (to badly generalize) and you know, I think I almost prefer it in a way.  It is quite exhausting and maxing it may not be worth the effort, but I'm never going to go after a map for massive time investment when that's a conscious design choice. Not all difficult maps have to be set in voids with interesting geometry. 

[Nefelibeta]

Certainly don't want to sound like a dick but I think swtw map03 will receive a higher grade if MtPain27 played on HMP/HNTR.

[LadyMistDragon]

he don't care is the thing because it's not the Dean of Doom way.

Edited July 10, 2022 by LadyMistDragon

[Nefelibeta]

Can't really understand what you said but if I were there to play a map that is abosulutely beyond my skill level, I will definitely be mentally prepared to get destroyed. If UV is designed to be oppressive, and oppression is something that you don't like, then why bother? UV is not the only way to appreciate a map you know.

[Mr. Alexander]

I think it's a case where the rules of the show — "We play on Ultra-Violence" — force it into a somewhat unfair judgment, as when the requirement for 100% kills results in harsh criticism for monsters or large battles hidden in secrets, even though it's actually good to reward secret-hunters with more combat and puzzles, or for turret monsters perched in hard-to-hit spots, even though those can put some mild pressure on the player and force them to keep moving.

 

It would be interesting if MtPain played Magnolia, if only because the rules of the show would crash into Ribbiks's rules for the wad: To play on UV, he'd have to beat HMP first, and he would almost certainly have to explain this unique situation to the audience in a digression about difficulty settings.

[Bauul]

2 hours ago, baja blast rd. said:

I've sometimes disagreed with the Memorable Maps engagement in episodes because it seems to miss the "historical importance" / "what people thought/felt about the map when it was fresh / then some years afterwards" angle (which was a necessary part of it being a celebration of Doom's history that fits in with 25 years of Doom). It's true that some maps haven't held up to 2020+ perspectives but focusing on that would have made it less a celebration of landmarks and what people loved and more a "hidden gems that have aged well + good modern maps" thing (more skewed towards the latter), which is a neat idea too, but just a different thing.

 

As I watched the video I didn't get the impression MtPain27 was criticizing the Top 100 Memorable Maps list itself or presuming the maps were rated by enjoyment. He used it as a source for well-known maps and then judged them by today's standards (which in fairness he's always been clear is the scope of his reviews).

 

However, I do agree his script could have been more overt in explaining to the viewers that the list was never meant to be a judgement on quality, simply historical status. It would be easy for a less informed viewer to take his criticisms of how individual map play today as a judgement on the quality of the list itself.

[baja blast rd.]

I guess the Null Space review (which is where I got that impression in this particular video, not DV) does concede at the end with "modern players are unlikely to see why DW recommended it too highly." I actually do think that's one of the clearer picks on the list though, in terms of how it fits into Doom history.

 

10 hours ago, Bauul said:

the list was never meant to be a judgement on quality, simply historical status

 

ye I think that should be clear -- Wow.wad (probably the best use of hanging body thing but) / Nuts / Sky May Be / etc. It'd be fun if someone did a Best Maps feature. They'd be different enough, because even though 80+ of the maps on the Memorable Feature are traditionally good, Memorable and Best have different enough shades of meaning and 4 maps a year is ridiculously small so the lists would be non-redundant even in the 1993-2018 parts.

[gudermannian function]

5 hours ago, Maribo said:

Was delighted to see a Paul977 map make it into one of these videos, I can only hope that he also looks at Black Room and Silver Edge in the future. (or Nova 3, perhaps?)

 

As far as I know he has good things to say about NOVA III. He said it would be highlight of season 3. He even started a thread somewhere in this forum discussing secret maps because NOVA III's secret maps blew him away. Paul977 maps in them had a very darkwave0000 feel to them which is right up MtPain27 alley. And he also collabed final map with Scotty. That was one hard map to say the least. 

[baja blast rd.]

Random thoughts on a couple "infamous" SWTW fights:

 

The bridge fight is an amusing one because, contrary to common opinion, I don't feel it actually has any RNG in it -- you can melee induce the HKs forever, so the cyb going pacifist isn't a run-ender. But it still often plays out awkardly with the infighting (as this clip shows), and mechanically it's an uncomfortable space to simply move around in with those impassable walls right next to you, so I don't enjoy the "open fire" approach that is possible if you hoard ammo. Idk, I love the tactical aspect of it -- it's rare that you have so many nuances, like the melee induction, the having to position yourself to avoid rockets -- but not the basic feel of it (which is awkward, queasy), and feel is more important to me. Glad it's early. 

 

 

I'm not going to replay half of SWTW 03 just for commentary on one encounter, but the four-cyber fight is not really as RNG as people insist either. It's not surprising this fight is understood shakily even among the people who try to understand fights well (Decino does it wrong too*). It exploits a cognitive tendency that people think more naturally in binaries of "do this or don't do this" -- so it's natural to either kill all the cybs (impossible and obviously bad because of resources) or leave them all alive to infight (results in that really hard dance). Also it does scream "infight dance" with the staging of the setup. Evil tbh. I can hear Ribbiks cackling. But the idea is you do have the resources to kill one cyb quickly, which you can do. With a cyb or two gone, the resulting dance is really doable and lots of infighting happens. Four cybs don't actually infight that much more against the peanut gallery because, even when they are not going after you, they'll be more busy blasting off rockets into each others' asses. It's crowded in there. You also can do obscure moves like starting off by distracting the cybs with chaingun fire to delay the hellacious infighting crossfire, which Rayzik does in his non-record max demo. The cleanup phase is tedious, though, against all those cubby snipers, although I guess it fits with the map's tone -- few kindnesses here.

 

 

*The cyb-quartet infighting is only really necessary to endure at record max pace, not at a more normal pace. (Also now that I mentioned it, there's probably also an element of many people copying the maxrun strat, especially since it doesn't look like a deliberately "fast" approach to handling the fight.)

[baja blast rd.]

More fight exploration, this time for Darkest Room.

 

 

This exit fight is brutal without a BFG shot. The best way to do it is probably to start taking potshots at the cybs before waiting for infighting to clear them out. The stationary cyb is dangerous but can't really see you 100% of the time and stationary monsters hoot (edit: shoot) less.

Someone who is unusually patient can also distract the perched ground level cyb forever with a revenant missile. It's not a huge gain because the viles can still see you back there, but it makes it feel safer. 

 

I think you can also pacifist this by going around touching the imp and HKs in their demonic places, but I actually never tried that. Yeah that works: one cyb will probably die to the imps/HKs, and one needs to be made to infight with the revs, and then you can finish off the other one. 

 

I feel a good academic metaphor for maps like these is "research topics" (lol I'm serious). 

 

People sometimes bring up "intended strategies," but individual fights, even relatively simple ones, are really complicated systems, so a few dozen players looking at a fight with different perspectives and some critical distance from the map will always come up with approaches that are way better than what the author intended, as well as exploits and cheeses. And there are also many approaches. So intended strategies aren't super relevant imo. I prefer that because if harder maps were just the author having one vision that you have to do, they'd feel a lot more stale. And part of the appeal of maps like these is there's always something better out there so it's like a canvas for endless exploration of nuances and stuff. Ancalagon or Zero-Master comes up with something -- it's perfect right? Nope, check out what happened four years later.

 

"The Old Bean Factory" seems like it's really up my alley -- lmao that bathroom -- so I'll try to play that soon. 

[Mr. Alexander]

On 7/10/2022 at 1:14 PM, Mr. Alexander said:

It would be interesting if MtPain played Magnolia, if only because the rules of the show would crash into Ribbiks's rules for the wad: To play on UV, he'd have to beat HMP first, and he would almost certainly have to explain this unique situation to the audience in a digression about difficulty settings.

Sorry to self-reply, but as of today, this statement about the format of Magnolia is not true. Ribbiks's website offers Magnolia's UV difficulty, but as a separate wad from the main Magnolia.

[Biodegradable]

Season 3 is here, kids! This time, the incomparable MtPain27 gives us a lecture of @Joshy's project, Resurgence.

 

 

[MemeMind]

I was there for the premire.

It was awesome, alot of cool people were in the live chat.

[Roofi]

Season 3 has started, here we go!

 

For this episode, I found it a bit strange. I felt like Mtpain27 restrained himself from giving an A+ several times, and just gave an A instead. I'm thinking in particular of map 18,22 and 31. 

[Nefelibeta]

17 minutes ago, Roofi said:

Season 3 has started, here we go!

 

For this episode, I found it a bit strange. I felt like Mtpain27 restrained himself from giving an A+ several times, and just gave an A instead. I'm thinking in particular of map 18,22 and 31. 

Same probably goes to Scythe 2

 

Guess only maps that are truly impressive and elaborate deserve A+, I thought maps like After Life II stands on the line between A and A+. But hey, Forgotten Land got an A+, so guess that's all up to personal taste.

[TakenStew22]

I'm glad to see this thread was unlocked.

 

Resurgence seems to be one of the more the consistent megawads Pain has reviewed in recent memory. Not a single F, only one got a D, and only one got a C. Also yeah, I feel Pain felt like he could've gotten some an A+ but just didn't want to.

Edited August 6, 2022 by TakenStew22

[LadyMistDragon]

5 minutes ago, TakenStew22 said:

I'm glad to see this thread was unlocked.

 

Resurgence seems to be one of the more the consistent megawads Pain has reviewed in recent memory. Not a single F, only one got a D, and only one got a C. Also yeah, I feel Pain felt like he could've gotten some an A+ but just didn't want to.

It's a thread someone else started before the other one.

[TakenStew22]

36 minutes ago, LadyMistDragon said:

It's a thread someone else started before the other one.

Huh? I'm confused. Did the threads merge or something?

[LadyMistDragon]

no, but rd decided not to unlock the other one

[baja blast rd.]

Yes they are merged (and have been for a few weeks). 

[MemeMind]

Whats all your opinions on this new chart for Difficulty?
I like the fact we are getting a much more "scientific" way of showing difficulty.

[Shepardus]

I wasn't sure whether that chart was supposed to be taken at face value, but if it is then I think there's a pretty enormous gap between A and X.

Edited August 6, 2022 by Shepardus