The Dean of Doom series (companion thread)

[Chalibluefin]

Doomworld not gonna like this one 

Ohhh boy

[TJG1289]

1 minute ago, Chalibluefin said:

Doomworld not gonna like this one 

Ohhh boy

 

I mean, he was still mostly positive about it. It did get a final grade of B after all, which is still pretty good. And I remember seeing mixed things about BTSX on here before. Personally, I do agree with most of his points. This is one of the few WADs where I stopped playing it cause I was just exhausted, and forgot to save after spending way too much time on map 15 and then dying and not feeling like playing through it all again. Those giant magnum opuses, man. I probably shouldn't have played this right after finishing the first one.

 

That being said, I'd like to retry it again sometime. Maybe take it a little slower. Some of those maps I didn't get to look really cool, especially Vultures. It's definitely not a bad WAD by any measure, but it's a different style and feel than most of the stuff I've enjoyed.

[NiGHTS108]

Interesting episode

[Bobby :D]

Calling maps long, that’s one fair (if you are going 100% I guess) thing. Calling maps pretentious, what are you smoking?

[AD_79]

Hmm. I'm surprised the final grade ended up being as high as it was, as he seemed to be somewhat down on this one for the better part of the episode. I'm not sure I understand why, aside from his 100% completion requirement sapping the longer adventure maps of their magic. Maps like Dirty Water or Speedtraps thrive on the player losing themselves within, wandering around and uncovering things at their own pace without pressure to hunt down every last shred of content on offer (and in the case of the two named maps, the authors don't necessarily want you to do everything as you can reach the exit via more than one route). I know the show's format calls for it, but forcing oneself to fully complete these maps turns them into a potential self-inflicted chore. Those longer maps are also spaced out pretty nicely by shorter, punchier offerings; I find the pacing of E2 to be a fair bit better than its predecessor due to the greater variety in map length. I'm also not a fan of some of his weird comments regarding the authors' egos? Essentially calling Tarns pretentious for making MAP19 feels especially unneeded.

 

(I'm aware of my title.)

[TakenStew22]

Damn the 2nd episode was released back in 2014 and it's supposed to be a trilogy? Either the BTSX team is cooking up something big or they can't seem to make the time for it.

 

Also, how come this mapset doesn't have a map 32?

[Gregor]

I comment MtPain for his honesty and sincerity in this episode. BTSX E2 is a bit overrated in my opinion.

 

The whole set looks beautiful and the music is killer. I think the first 10-12 maps are the wad's strongest and can easily stand with the best of episode 1. But the hub levels and the final map were a let-down when compared to its predecessor. And both Fireking and Festering Moon felt somewhat unhinged in their respective map slots. BTSX 2 is a technical marvel and a very good set overall, but no masterpiece like the first one IMO.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Gregor

[Gregor]

I hope he does a review of 1000 Lines 3 at some point. One of the best ever made in my book.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Gregor

[Biodegradable]

4 hours ago, Gregor said:

I hope he does a review of 1000 Lines 3 at some point. One of the best ever made in my book.

 

I'd love to see him cover the 1000 Lines trilogy of WADs in a compendium video similar to his 3Hours of Agony review.

 

I'd also love to see Zone 400 covered and a third Sawn-Off WADs episode. There's still so many smaller releases out there worthy of the Dean's grade.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Biodegradable

[Roofi]

I had played a part of BTSXE2 which I ended up preferring to 1. It's a very good wad but it will never surpass legendary wads like Kama Sutra or Alien Vendetta.

 

Despite the greater diversity in themes, the maps tend to look too samey for me.

 

I also felt that Mtpain was more acidic as usual but it's a matter of taste, after all.

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Roofi

[RHhe82]

This reminds me, I really need to play BTSXE1. I've started it several times, I really seem to like it, yet I always kinda move on to other wads. (Well, the first time I was playing on the unity port with an Xbox controller, and BTSX1 was way above my skill grade back then).

 

I'm not in a hurry to move on BTSXE2, though. I already knew it from Decino playthrough, and MtPain confirms it, but some of the maps really do seem like exhausting magnum opuses - which is not a fault in maps themselves, but which I know is detrimental to my enjoyment. Especially with my "gotta catch 'em^{(kills and secrets)} all" mentality.

[ReaperAA]

3 hours ago, Gregor said:

I hope he does a review of 1000 Lines 3 at some point. One of the best ever made in my book.

 

I hope so too. But it seems that the chances of it happening are quite low due to it not much known outside of Doomworld, despite winning a cacoward.

 

But then, he also did Good Morning Phobos, so there is still hope.

[Uni]

I agree with him on MAP20, I couldn't get myself to finish it. I much prefer the beta version of it, even with all of the flaws it had. There was something about the linear journey and the various locales you visit, ending up in that village on the top of the mountain. 

 

I guess it comes down to personal taste.

[i suck at nicknames]

4 hours ago, Bobby "J said:

Calling maps long, that’s one fair (if you are going 100% I guess) thing. Calling maps pretentious, what are you smoking?

 

I think he means maps being self-indulgent and overly dickish I suppose. Like giving too much weight to its worth when it comes out as just another slog. 

[i suck at nicknames]

3 hours ago, Biodegradable said:

 

I'd love to see him cover the trilogy of WADs in a compendium video similar to his 3Hours of Agony review.

 

I'd also love to see Zone 400 covered and a third Sawn-Off WADs episode. There's still so many smaller releases out there worthy of the Dean's grade.

 

Sawed off wads are for mapsets under 5 or 6 levels I think. 

 

If Zone 300 or 400 is gonna be reviewed, I'd put money on them being their own episode(s). 

[jazzmaster9]

8 hours ago, AD_79 said:

 I'm also not a fan of some of his weird comments regarding the authors' egos? Essentially calling Tarns pretentious for making MAP19 feels especially unneeded.

Getting a larger following usually means you can get more people to defend some hot/bad takes. Thus making it "okay" as "valid critiscm".

Edited September 4, 2022 by jazzmaster9

[Andromeda]

9 hours ago, AD_79 said:

I'm not sure I understand why, aside from his 100% completion requirement sapping the longer adventure maps of their magic. Maps like Dirty Water or Speedtraps thrive on the player losing themselves within, wandering around and uncovering things at their own pace without pressure to hunt down every last shred of content on offer (and in the case of the two named maps, the authors don't necessarily want you to do everything as you can reach the exit via more than one route). I know the show's format calls for it, but forcing oneself to fully complete these maps turns them into a potential self-inflicted chore.

I may be alone in this, but I think NOT fully completing these long adventurous levels is what saps them of their magic. Starting out lost and wandering aimlessly, slowly completing objectives and getting a feel for the layout and by the end you have tamed this wild beast, knowing every nook and cranny of what once seemed a inscrutable labyrinth. For me it's a very rewarding experience!

[Thelokk]

I'm no particular fan of BTSX, but still...

 

In any kind of creative endeavour, 'pretentious' is a meaningless adjective. Pretentious how? compared to what? some arbitrary 'humble yet earnest' signpost the reviewer slams down on the floor? 

 

'Pretentious' is reviewers' last resort when they run out of hooks to bring something down. This silly idea that simplicity and straightforwardness automatically breed quality needs to go in the trash can. 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Thelokk

[Mayomancer]

23 minutes ago, Thelokk said:

This silly idea that simplicity and straightforwardness automatically breed quality needs to go in the trash can. 

 

I don't think that's the point he was trying to go for, considering other very complex and detailed maps that have received high praise in other reviews... It's about the disparity of a grandiose presentation/ambitious design and the perceived actual quality of the thing in question. That perception obviously subjective, as you can go on the whole tangent of what "quality" is and if there's objectively good or bad standards, but if that's how it came across, it means just that, it's how it came across to that player in particular.
 

[jazzmaster9]

What i learned is i need to make sure my maps meet the dean of Doom check list and not on my mapping "ego" checklist (things i enjoy and want to make)

Edited September 4, 2022 by jazzmaster9

[Lucius Wooding]

Well to me BTSX E1 was such a popular and accessible wad that it made it impossible to follow up. Its difficulty was right down the middle, map length was very consistent generally, it had bangin midis and it had a very streamlined experience for the player. It pleased the biggest part of the fanbase you can realistically please with a single set of maps. And the main criticism of it was that it was so consistent that many of the maps felt similar to play. So to try and make a good sequel you'd either rehash the formula and make 20 more balanced techbase maps (with a new coat of paint), or try and experiment a bit, go grander, make it more exploration heavy and cryptic. 

 

In essence, I can't fault the mappers for trying to go in a new direction with the sequel. Of course they wanted to make something that was new and different and they deserved that chance. It's just that going in any direction from what they had would result in disappointing people due to the immense expectations. Many people like 20 minute long, pretty looking, and mostly straightforward techbase maps. That subset of the community is a lot broader than those who like hour long, complicated and harder ones. E2 still had a share of shorter maps which also seemed to be the biggest crowd pleasers, so take that for what it's worth. I just think the mix of the two was a bit off, and a number of the different mappers seemed to submit their own long ones. 

 

As for the term pretentious, I think it was 100% targeted at the custom nodebuilder fuckery. It even breaks some source ports, and the fact he went into this point in detail is very telling that it rubbed him the wrong way. The Dean is far from impartial, he plays favorites with aesthetics he likes and sometimes gets petty about things. Personally I know by now that our taste in maps is not the same, although I still enjoy his content.

[Gothic]

16 hours ago, Chalibluefin said:

Doomworld not gonna like this one 

Ohhh boy

I'm Doomworld, and I like it

[Bobby :D]

1 hour ago, Lucius Wooding said:

As for the term pretentious, I think it was 100% targeted at the custom nodebuilder fuckery. It even breaks some source ports, and the fact he went into this point in detail is very telling that it rubbed him the wrong way. The Dean is far from impartial, he plays favorites with aesthetics he likes and sometimes gets petty about things. Personally I know by now that our taste in maps is not the same, although I still enjoy his content.

The map he called pretentious wasn’t even using node builder fuckery. One of the reasons he didn’t like it, the auto map not showing the secret area, is totally not intentional btw. 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Bobby "J

[LVENdead]

I'm not particularly surprised by his impression of BTSX2 but I also disagree with a lot of it. I'm not sure where you draw the line between pretentious/self-indulgent and grandiose, but I think MtPain places this WAD on the wrong side of it. I echo the same sentiments many have already shared that the large environments you get lost in is part of the experience of this WAD. Not many WADs really capture the somber or melancholy vibe that BTSX1&2 do in my opinion, and I think that effect would be diminished if the maps were smaller in scale or shorter in length. I find it a bit telling that he kind of glosses over the hub maps when in opinion they really exist as the lynchpin of the WAD's overall theme and feel.

 

I also have to give consideration to the authors making their maps fit within the constraints of vanilla limits, which I know MtPain probably considers, but yet I feel don't get enough consideration in the review itself? I can only imagine authors leaning into the challenge of realizing their vision with such constraints in place...is trying to stick as close to that in their execution pretentious? Or self-indulgent? I'm not really sure, but personally I don't think so. 

 

Ultimately, it's weird that I disagree with a lot of the substance of the review, but I don't disagree with the grading. There are many WADS I like quite a bit more than BTSX2, but vastly more that I've played that I like less. 

[Gregor]

9 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

 

I hope so too. But it seems that the chances of it happening are quite low due to it not much known outside of Doomworld, despite winning a cacoward.

That's exactly why a review episode would be great. More people need to know about this set.

 

Let's make it happen, MtPain! 1000 Lines 3 when?

Edited September 4, 2022 by Gregor

[Tarnsman]

3 hours ago, Andromeda said:

I may be alone in this, but I think NOT fully completing these long adventurous levels is what saps them of their magic. Starting out lost and wandering aimlessly, slowly completing objectives and getting a feel for the layout and by the end you have tamed this wild beast, knowing every nook and cranny of what once seemed a inscrutable labyrinth. For me it's a very rewarding experience!

 

The great thing about giving the player freedom is allowing the player to experience the map how they choose. Be it the way AD likes it or the way you prefer. That's why optional areas and non linearity are great in larger maps. It's also fun as a mapper to try to make the map work in different ways with different routes.

 

I don't really have many complaints about the review beyond "the radiating smugness of unorthodox weapon pickup" being the most nonsensical line.

 

I do have trouble understanding giving a map that you "never want to play again" a grade higher than "F" and find his final grade a bit confusing given the actual words that preceed it.

 

I think my biggest problem is more with the ruleset and the concept of forcing yourself to 100% something, even when you're not enjoying it. Complaining about length while elongating the experience. 

[Bauul]

I agree that the rules MtPain27 set for himself (100%ing each map, and playing the whole mapset twice) definitely work against some longer maps, especially more non-linear and explorative ones.

 

I don't think setting consistent rules in of itself is a bad thing, but recognizing the impact on certain maps is definitely important, and to his credit he does acknowledge this at the start of the video. But I do feel perhaps a few more acknowledgements of that during the video would have mitigated some of the more negative sentiments.

 

I recall one major recent victim of this ruleset was Deus Vult. I love Deus Vult, but I would never try to 100% it, let alone twice in any short amount of time. It would be a chore from start to finish. Some maps just work best as a one-and-done experience.

[LadyMistDragon]

I think if he only played through some of the more tedious and large maps once, that he wouldn't necessarily judge them as harshly. There's "Shocker in Gloomtown" of course, but that map isn't as long as some of the later ones. As Baaul has said, this tendency is also evident in past reviews of his.

13 hours ago, Biodegradable said:

 

 

 

I'd also love to see Zone 400 covered and a third Sawn-Off WADs episode. There's still so many smaller releases out there worthy of the Dean's grade.

He's not really the biggest pcorf fan though, and honestly, it's got as much the bad as the good of the average Corfiatis set.

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by LadyMistDragon

[ReaperAA]

1 hour ago, Tarnsman said:

I do have trouble understanding giving a map that you "never want to play again" a grade higher than "F" and find his final grade a bit confusing given the actual words that preceed it.

 

Granted I am not MtPain27 and I also haven't played the 2nd half of BTSX E2's maps, but I can kind of understand this. If there's a map that does everything against my preferences, but has atleast some degree of competence and effort put into it, then I too would hesitate to give it an F.

 

Like in my case, Sunder's later maps are just tooooo goddamn long for my taste to a point where I probably won't ever play them even a single time, let alone "never want to play again". But I just can't ever bring myself to give those maps an F due to the sheer effort put by IG in those maps.

 

On the other hand, i do think using word like pretentious was probably a bit much.

[Use]

:)