The Dean of Doom series (companion thread)

[ZeMystic]

Just finished the episode. While I disagreed with a decent chunk of MtPain27's review I saw where he was coming from in some parts. Not liking something is perfectly fine, but calling somebody pretentious because of it doesn't sit well with me. Calling the map smug because you get a certain weapon before anything else is strange. Don't get me wrong, I can understand where MtPain27 is coming from when he talks about the lack of rad suits and the hidden plasma weapon secrets; I didn't even find the plasma weapon secrets during my run-through. I am also confused why he bothered to rank the intermission maps but not the final map. In MtPain27's E1 review, he gave the intermission maps an A, which I completely standby, but what I don't agree with is E2's intermission maps getting a C. MtPain27's reasoning for this was "The train stations felt organic and present, while the four towers in the fountain of sparks are just filler." This just feels extremely backward to me. I love E1's intermission maps with a hot burning passion, they are even my wallpaper for Pete's sake and I prefer them over E2. However, E2's intermissions felt nowhere close to being fillers. Each one felt like a new bonus area to explore and bask in the atmosphere. If E2's intermission maps are filler, then E1 is filler in the exact same way. Finally, that comment at the very end of the video about the mapper's ego feels like a cheap shot and probably should've been edited out of the video. If a map is big and you didn't like the map because of it, it doesn't mean the mapper has an oversized ego. That comment was quite shitty and wouldn't have been what I expected from reviews like these.

Edited December 11, 2022 by ZeMystic

[MtPain27]

It's probably not a good idea for me to respond to all this because it accomplishes essentially nothing, but I will drop this here.

 

 

I am praying for this thread to fall off 'popular now.' It's very strange to see a cult of personality being built for you and not by you. 

 

PS: If you ever make maps according to a Dean of Doom checklist, that is a total loss for you, me, and everybody. I don't know why you would even joke about that.

[TheFocus]

i've said this many, many times now: BTSX 2 is my favorite WAD of all time. it's (with a few obvious exceptions) perfect IMO. that said, i 100% understand not liking it. it's a fucking beast, man. not everyone enjoys hour long monoliths, or spirit crushingly hard fights. i get it.

 

btw, i'm also surprised MT. Pain's score was that high.

[Gregor]

I wouldn't take any comments here personally. Not any more than people should take any words in your review personally. You had to expect some pitchforks being raised in response to your criticism of one of the most highly-rated megaWAD in recent memory. You made some strong points and now some people will react strongly to that. Like you said, it's a conversation. In the end, both sides have valid arguments for their positions. I think on a lot of points, especially when it comes to creative work of any form, people can often just agree to disagree.

I do think there is an objective answer to most questions, including art. But good luck getting everybody on board with that.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Gregor

[onetruepurple]

The question here would probably be, how much of this "reading into authorial intent" debacle was informed by the intentional obtuseness found in D2ISO?

[Tarnsman]

Quote

Playing Doom for me today is like having conversations with mappers.

 

I don't think that's a good way to engage with a map. A conversation is two ways and there is an exchange. Playing a map isn't a conversation. It's an experience. How you experience it is going to be a vastly different, personalized thing based on a multitude of factors ranging from how you play it, what settings you used, your skill level, what traits you do and do not like in something, and even how you were feeling specifically at that time. 

 

Things like what the mapper intended or what they wanted you to feel are almost honestly ancillary to that experience.[1] They can inform or enhance the experience if you approach it with secondary knowledge but at the end of the day the most important aspect of map enjoyment or lack thereof comes from you. Like knowing a map was designed to be played as a 10-15 minute choose your own adventure doesn't really do you much good when you choose to 100% it multiple times.

 

That's why it's an experience not a conversation.

 

When you try to read into what the mapper intended without actually talking to them about it you get the kind of responses you are getting because you're now moving beyond your personalized experience. Most mappers make things that they think are fun or interesting. Sometimes those things can be acerbic or confusing, particularly when they're the more adventure aspects of Doom or if they're niche high difficulty things, but they're almost always something that the mapper actually enjoys. Making something specifically to evoke a negative reaction in the player is honestly awful, as is assuming someone did that.

 

[1] If you're confused about something then having context can help you understand an idea or concept but that's rarely going to drastically impact your enjoyment as often times it's just interpreted as "oh so it's bad on purpose" rather than actually understanding it. (This is most common when people try to emulate the things they love about janky maps, primarily from the 90s.)

[FrancisT218]

I love the show. And this episode. I happen to like BTSXE2 quite a bit more than a B grade, but I did not play it to 100% kills and I see where the annoyance with many of these maps can come from. It doesn't make me like the episode or the show any less. And it is his show where he should feel free to spread his thoughts on a wad or hopes for the future of a project.

 

My advice is to keep going, don't sweat! There's way more awesomeness to cover.

Edited September 4, 2022 by FrancisT218

[Doomkid]

Haha maybe I’m just a degenerate POS but I’ve definitely had the thought “hmm, this does seem a little pretentious” a few times here and there while playing Doom maps, listening to certain songs, watching certain movies, etc etc. It doesn’t stand as an indictment of the creator and it definitely doesn’t mean I dislike the piece of art in question, but you guys have seriously never seen a piece of art or TV show that seems to take itself a tad too seriously, even aside from all the stuff it does well? Pretentious doesn’t mean “bad” or “not creative” or anything like that, but maybe some of you are just judgement-free paragons compared to me..

 

I said this on the comment section of the actual video, but for me any wad with that much effort put into the texture artistry, music, mapping and otherwise would get an A from me even if I didn’t like the gameplay. I know how much effort wad building is, and as a wad builder, my inclination is to grade the effort and the grind moreso than actually grading the wad by “how much fun I had as a Doom player”.
 

This is a big part of why I don’t main as a reviewer, and why MtPain is so much more cut out for it, imo. Not that he doesn’t know how much work it is, but that he cuts through to the heart of what doom wad reviews were made for: answering the questions of “how much fun did the reviewer have while playing and what impressions did they get?”. If someone genuinely thought I made something pretentious, I wouldn’t want them to hide that opinion, because that’s all it is, an opinion.
 

I’ve heard worse in my career, far worse. Heck, one of the people in this very thread dunked on my DM wads pretty damn hard years ago, calling them “bad” and “not fun”. I gotta assume the sting I felt was worse than if they were called pretentious, but that’s how it goes, you know? Once your art leaves your hands and enters the public, it’s open to any person with any set of interests and preferences to comment on in whatever way they like. It’s just the nature of these kinds of endeavours.

 

(..Honestly though, I can’t even fathom having any reaction beyond “lol” if someone said that a map I made was pretentious, lol)

[jazzmaster9]

Personally i just find off putting calling something made for Fun to have Fun as egotistical or pretentious, especially a project that started life as "wow Essel, these texture you made are awsome lets make some maps for these". celebrating your peers hard work and skill through creativity is far from egotistical. 

Edited September 5, 2022 by jazzmaster9

[Doomkid]

Every single Doom wad out there was made for fun's sake, but even despite the aforementioned "sting" some poor reviews have given me, they also made me into a better mapper once I swallowed my pride and gave it a second listen/read with an open mind despite not liking hearing it the first time around. IcarusLives basically said Doomed in Space (and older CP of mine) was a dinky, clunky wad and had crap weapons. After two years in the oven, it hurt to hear that, but once I tried to listen to the review a second time after chilling out, I realized I could take away plenty of positives from the situation.

 

My future wads turned out better once I dropped my guard and convinced myself to want to hear what one person thought was wrong with my approach to wadmaking. If someone called a map I made "pretentious" I would of course lol on the face of it, but I'd also ask myself what might give some players that impression, and maybe change my approach next time around. Or maybe I'd just disagree even after a second listen, and decide I really do just disagree and keep on mappin'.

 

I disagree with the idea that, because they're made for fun, no one should express negative opinions on Doom wads. I want to hear their real experience and real thoughts, warts-and-all, because even if it stings at first, historically it has made me a better mapper and modder. If something feels like it's overwrought for the sake of being overwrought, I want to hear that too.

[Dusty_Rhodes]

I don't see the problem. I love the first two Community Chest wads (like all of them but the first two are my pick of the litter) and he dunked on CC1 and got a base level of enjoyment out of CC2. It's his opinion, he's perfectly entitled to it. I'm not big on the BTSX wads myself but they are certainly very well made. When people make excellent content for my favorite game for free, I can just choose not to play what I don't like. And likewise, I can play all the wads I do like. And it's totally fair to praise and criticise the wads you play. Doom has a wide, wide range of content for people of all kinds of tastes. When you make a level, you open yourself up to criticism and praise in equal measure. People like my levels and people dislike my levels, I take all feedback with a grain of salt, knowing it's not personal, and move on. 

 

To paraphrase Bob Dylan:

 

"'Half of the wads can be part right all of the time and other wads can be all right part of the time. But all of the wads can't be all right all of the time.' I think Mordeth said that. 'I'll let you be in my speedmap project if you let me be in yours' I said that."

[Dusty_Rhodes]

2 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

once I swallowed my pride and gave it a second listen/read with an open mind

Pretty much this. Excuse the redditism shudders but I think it's accurate. Granted Tarnsman, Essel, and Xaser and the like are far from inexperienced or "bad" mappers - very far. Again, I think it just boils down to what people want to feel and see when they digest art. It's no different to music. How many people love and defend Weezer compared to their detractors? I'm not a fan but their music isn't low effort or bad simply because I dislike it. 

 

Sorry for doubleposting, I think it deserved being said. 

 

Also I wish this thread would stop being a bed for controversy. What's it he says in the beginning of every video? "Disagreeing is part of the fun," that it?

[skillsaw]

Expressing negative opinions about Doom wads is fine (let's be nice about it, though). Criticism is important. No one's maps are or should be immune to criticism. In Yugiboy's initial comment (the YouTube screenshot), though, he isn't pointing out that MtPain criticized the maps unfairly, he's pointing out that MtPain criticized people unfairly. It's a significant distinction.

 

I wasn't a fan of MtPain turning Gene Bird into a meme in the CC2 review, regardless of the quality of his maps and how much or little they were enjoyed, and I'm also not a fan of accusations that someone is an egomaniac on the basis of having played a large Doom level by them. It's a personal attack, and that is the line that was crossed, and why some people are upset. Nothing about the map criticism in the episode is unfair in the least. I seriously thought the line was a badly delivered, throwaway joke, until it was pointed out to me that MtPain doubled down on it in his comment.

Edited September 5, 2022 by skillsaw

[Doomkid]

Huh, I heard a passing joke about some mappers needing to "reel their egos in", I didn't hear him call anyone "an egomaniac". Even if we may agree a joke about "mappers needing to reel their egos in" is not the best choice of words, I don't think we should put words in MtPain's mouth or exaggerate them so heavily, turning it into something personal when it so clearly was not intended that way. I'm sorry, but some of you seem to be reaching to get offended by this. It's not worth it.

 

Maybe MtPain really was trying to make personal attacks and hurt people, but uh, it really doesn't come off that way. This whole dialogue is about Doom maps being overwrought, not attacks on character. If anyone interprets it that way immediately, that's on them.

[LadyMistDragon]

People ought to suggest random Russian wads it  from the First Try Demo contest in 2015 for Sawed-Off Wads out of pure spite. If he thinks the epics Mechadon or Xaser weren't involved with were so bad, it's tiresomely predictable how he'd regard anything like that so only do that out of amusement I guess. Although it should be said that MtPain may not necessarily view Eternal Doom so negatively and I think I can understand why (that can discussed when he does that episode), although I fully expect the same or lower grade 

 

 

If there's any odd discrepancy in the overall reviewing though, it's his tendency to shat on wads that get less than an A grade. It's something that can be observed by watching enough of his videos, imo. You can disagree with this, but thars how the scripts tend to go

Edited September 5, 2022 by LadyMistDragon

[FrancisT218]

I'm just going to add I'm with Doomkid. I think he was more trying to be playful with the word than attack anyone (or the wad team) and maybe at worst there was some misinterpretation in how it came off.

Edited September 5, 2022 by FrancisT218

[Witchy Titan]

Dude made my DOOM addiction act up again

[Pseudonaut]

Since I haven't played the wad, I probably wouldn't have watched the video if not for this little controversy. Well played.

[heliumlamb]

ego = brainpower+timespent /sectorcount^[thingplacement(pretense^2/totaltags)]

under these conditions it is determined that Slough Of Despair succeeds once again.

 

 

[Gregor]

I think we can all go to bed now.

 

 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Gregor

[Doctor_Spengler]

I guess "disagreeing is part of the fun" doesn't apply to this episode.

[Snaxalotl]

Ranking things is fun! Until I disagree with you

For real though I'm getting the vibe that wads by well known author's shouldn't receive criticism, if he said this about maps by less renowned authors then no one would have said anything. Plus there is a huge difference between criticizing a map and the author personally. This whole thing is so overblown.

[jazzmaster9]

1 hour ago, skillsaw said:

I'm also not a fan of accusations that someone is an egomaniac on the basis of having played a large Doom level by them. It's a personal attack, and that is the line that was crossed, and why some people are upset. Nothing about the map criticism in the episode is unfair in the least. I seriously thought the line was a badly delivered, throwaway joke, until it was pointed out to me that MtPain doubled down on it in his comment.

Pretty much this. This isn't about "you mad cuz he hates your favorite wad" its the tasteless jab to mappers who, allegedly, are full of themselves.

 

There is a Key difference in "this map overstayed it welcome and end up being too long for me to enjoy" and "if only these designers weren't so full of themselves they could have made a map i enjoy". one is a fair criticism and one is just a low blow.

AGAIN no one here is stopping people from not liking BTSX E2, it don't know why anyone thinks this is about criticizing BTSX.

Edited September 5, 2022 by jazzmaster9

[TheLippyServer]

People who think that others shouldn't honestly express their opinions on something for a review show because they disagree, demand that people abstain from using words with applicable definitions because they personally object to their use (lest they be subjected to the mob), or take any criticism of their or their friends' work as a personal attack probably SHOULD rein in their egos. They certainly don't come across as exuding humility... or self awareness for that matter. I've only made a single map for release, and have already been referred to as 'sadistic' and 'mean'. If I were anywhere near as inclined to butthurt as the rest of this thread seems to be, I'd have fucking offed myself. Stop the needless pearl clutching and get a damn grip folks.

[Decay]

33 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

There is a Key difference in "this map overstayed it welcome and end up being too long for me to enjoy" and "if only these designers weren't so full of themselves they could have made a map i enjoy". one is a fair criticism and one is just a low blow.

Not true. There are definitely times where mapper egos get in the way and they fuck up maps or make shitty game play because they either don't listen to others' feedback, don't care to, or just generally think they are infallible. This has even been alluded to in the cacowards.

 

I have no stake in this argument though. I've not played BTSX, and I'm not saying this is a valid case here, but sometimes it is totally a valid criticism, though usually more so when you are more familiar with the mapper themselves.

[jazzmaster9]

16 minutes ago, Decay said:

Not true. There are definitely times where mapper egos get in the way and they fuck up maps or make shitty game play because they either don't listen to others' feedback, don't care to, or just generally think they are infallible.

I won't deny there are cases like this. My comment was more pertaining to this mapset in particular.

[GarrettChan]

As someone who tested all these later adventure maps in all 4 difficulties (including UV -solonet), maybe I can add my 2 cents.

 

Quote

Playing Doom for me today is like having conversations with mappers.

 

Have to quote this first. I guess "playing" is not, while "testing" is more towards the yes. Usually when I'm testing a map, I would ask the mappers about the intentions of the maps. Yes, obviously everybody has their own preference, me too. Therefore, it's very easy to get hit by maps that you don't like eventually after you play enough maps. Honestly, questioning one's taste or intention of a map is not really a good way to deal with things you don't like.

 

From a bigger view, it's like people asking "why BtSX like to enforce all vanilla limit?", which is technically a useless question because it's just how the mappers prefer. If you didn't like it, then you don't really have a control here because you're not who is making it. Having a bit of mappers' personalities is completely fine IMO.

 

The first bit of time getting into my playtesting career, I did like to point out everything I don't like, and everything I think it can be improved (at least from my view), but after a while into this, I would prefer communicating with the mapper(s) to see whether they are aware of this, or they make it like this. If they are completely understand why it's like that, then I guess that's all fine.

 

Maybe spicy comment, I don't know, but I have no malicious intent. Still, don't read if you don't about me (It's about D2ISO, not only BtSX E2)

Spoiler

I used to find that it's a little bit difficult to communicate with Tarns, but it's a multi factor thing obviously. One is that I'm Chinese, so sometimes I can't really understand what he says (for real), or even I don't understand what I'm talking about, heh. The other could be that I don't really understand his maps back then. However, after a while of testing maps for others, I probably learn how do properly communicate with the mappers about the map's ideas.

 

I have to say Tarns is a person who is quite special (can't think of a better word, but it's positive meaning), and his maps in D2ISO have some special charm to it that I can't really describe. Being the sole tester for the whole project (yes, 32 maps in all 3 difficulties), there are quite a lot of things that I gave feedback. However, Tarns (almost) always change those in the opposite way I suggest, so sometimes I do feel a bit of frustrated, heh, but hey, it's his work, so I should respect whatever he does. The only funny one is that I said that Map25's blood being 10% is a bit too cruel, and I didn't expect Tarns will change it, but that's the only time I succeeded as a "tester" lol.

 

In the end, I did have quite a bit of fun for being the tester of the project, along with the long lasting second version of BtSX E2M26. Gradually, I probably learned how to properly communicate with the mappers. I do admit that back then, I may know too little about making maps, so I may overrate my feedbacks back then, but sometimes I was reading some of my older comments in Devilution maps, I feel a bit of cringe, heh.

 

[MattFright]

9 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

I won't deny there are cases like this. My comment was more pertaining to this mapset in particular.

 

I didn't have that view of them before but, you have to admit, every other author and lots of their friends creating over two pages of argument over one or two things someone said in a 30 minute video doesn't exactly speak humility. This way of reacting to it is the definition of shooting yourself in the foot (i'm 99% sure nobody would even have paid any attention to those two phrases if it wasn't for all of them bringing up how offended they were by them).

[Bobby :D]

5 minutes ago, MattFright said:

 

I didn't have that view of them before but, you have to admit, every other author and lots of their friends creating over two pages of argument over one or two things someone said in a 30 minute video doesn't exactly speak humility. This way of reacting to it is the definition of shooting yourself in the foot (i'm 99% sure nobody would even have paid any attention to those two phrases if it wasn't for all of them bringing up how offended they were by them).

I just find that Mt. Pain has a tendency to have a very weird take on authorship and can get petty with some of his more corrosive takes. Not that they are negative towards the map, but he has some oddly personal opinions on it (the kind some would call “passionate”). I think it was a bigger issue with the jabs at Gene Bird and Pcorf, the difference here is that people on BTSX E2 are actually active.

[MarsHappyNation]

I watched the episode before I even knew there was any controversy surrounding it, so imagine my surprise checking back here to see it blowing up the way it has. The ego remark struck me as a throwaway line to close a review and I never would have guessed it would get such a passionate reaction out of people. With that being said though, after reading over everyone's thoughts here, I still fail to see it as even half as problematic as it's been made out to be. If the mappers discussed take personal offense to it then it's a different situation entirely, but from my perspective as it stands right now, a single off-handed comment conveyed through a joke about someone having a bit of an ego shouldn't be held up as an example of malice or "stepping over the line" on Dean's part at all. It registered to me as nothing more than a personal observation all his own. I've always appreciated hearing his personal takeaways on the mappers themselves whenever he touches on it, because I like to think the mind and the map are impossible to divorce; sprinkles of personality and charming little quirks unique to the individual unavoidably slipping into a project. That's exactly how I took his assessment in his most recent video. It didn't seem ill-intentioned by any stretch of the imagination to me but an example of him trying to glean a bit of "soul" from whatever mapset he's covering. I'm sure nobody (and Dean least of all) was ever expecting it to become such an incendiary topic but I'd never fault any of the people who felt targeted by his statement for feeling hurt by it. I'd also like to mention how impressed I am at how civil the discourse has been from everything I've seen, it's a very pleasant surprise. I've gotten so jaded to seeing forums like this go up in flames over significantly less so just happy to see you all keep things level-headed.

Admittedly I've been very detached from this community in recent years and even then, my contributions have been sporadic at best. Just felt tossing in my two cents on the whole situation would be useful, if only as an example of how someone who is mostly uninvolved in this place feels about it.
See you next year.

Edited September 5, 2022 by MarsHappyNation