The Dean of Doom series (companion thread)

[cannonball]

It is probably far easier and less controversial to dunk on something like Memento Mori, a wad that is quite bluntly very rough around the edges. Requiem has a lot more flair, more tricks and creativity, but the wad falls flat in many aspects regarding the gameplay and it isn't something you can't just ignore because for example the author is probably one of the best at constructing near 3d environments withing the doom engine, shotgunning mid tiers in corridors with little room to maneuver isn't fun, end of. In the end I am a little surprised at the controversy given that the gameplay is probably more scrutinised now than it was back in 1997. 

[roadworx]

1 minute ago, cannonball said:

In the end I am a little surprised at the controversy given that the gameplay is probably more scrutinised now than it was back in 1997. 

what i'm surprised at is that people still think that there's controversy about the rating of requiem

[jazzmaster9]

3 hours ago, LadyMistDragon said:

Mt Pain's personal attacks on practically anyone who makes maps he finds personally irksome are getting really tiresome, to say the least. 

Ive noticed this greatly since his BTSX E2 review, and his constant pcorf jokes in another video.

 

He claims that mapping is this "conversation between player and mapper" but ends up him putting words into a mapper's mouth, when he doesnt like the level, then feel insulted.

[Devalaous]

The only time ive seen his criticisms of a map authour's tendencies be a bit too harsh was with CC2. Some maps really frustrate him and he makes that known, never once seen him actually belittle the person itself. Just feels like over-reacting to me, given society these days is often forced positivity above all else.

[Dynamo]

19 minutes ago, Devalaous said:

given society these days is often forced positivity above all else. 

... I beg your pardon?

[BiZ]

2 hours ago, Dynamo said:

This was indeed my main complaint at the end of the day, and I find it interesting that some people on this thread chose to instead focus on the technicalities of "pistol start vs non-pistol start" when that was a secondary aspect to this. Like you said though, it is what it is, and I enjoyed this episode as well as the BTSX E2 one, I felt like both had some good insight into the maps. Not the MM1 episode though, unfortunately.

 

it was absolutely not the secondary aspect. The post that started this was about the reviewer "doing it wrong" by pistol-starting instead of playing this wad continuous...at least on its face. Now after some sussing out it seems like the real issue was that "the reviewer criticized the creator that i hold on a pedestal."

 

As for the alleged personal attacks, its a futile endeavor to argue about imo. Just scroll back a dozen pages to the controversy surrounding the btsx e2 episode. This reminds me so much of that. If you want to have an actual dialogue about it regarding this episode, i went back and watched the video again but I'm really struggling to figure out where the personal attacks are, so a timestamp or quote would definitely provide some concrete footing to facilitate the conversation you want. (I'm not saying you are wrong, just that we are all going to have different perspectives, interpretations, levels of sensitivities, etc.)

 

In general though, i just disagree with this notion that players are only allowed to have or express opinions on the work and not the author as if the two things exist in a vacuum. That seems like pure fantasy to me. I'm struggling to think of any critic that doesn't sometimes reference the author in regards to to their work, that doesn't try to divine their intent or motivation behind the work, that doesn't notice or reference trends or quirks across the creators body of work.

 

 

[Tristan]

Pretty funny to see people in this thread talking about "personal attacks" in the videos when I've seen them do the exact same sort of thing repeatedly...

[Downcologo one]

On 10/31/2020 at 7:17 PM, Sunnyfruit said:

So this is a Youtube show from a "nerd with too much time on its hands", initially recommended by decino and that I enjoy quite a lot. Basically, it's a wad review map by map with pistol start on ZDoom, with one note for quality and one note for difficulty. It's still a pretty obscure channel so I wanted to make some publicity for it and ask for a general opinion about the show itself.

(no I'm not the guy, I can't even play anything but GZDoom for more than 5 minutes before emptying my meal on the floor)

 

The lastest video, Halloween-related:

 

The classic iwads reviews:

 

DOOM 93

 

THY FLESH CONSUMED:

 

 

DOOM 2:

 

 

I really like they videos

[OceanMadman]

3 minutes ago, Downcologo one said:

I really like they videos

Ye he's good

[TakenStew22]

Ignoring the argument going on about pistol starts, I actually do remember liking Requiem and the Momento Mori's. I guess 90's jankiness didn't bother me that much, classic maps just had that charm for me. In fact, I kinda miss the simpleness of them and wish more modern maps did more classic map playstyle instead of being gimmicky or slaughtery which seems to be the norm nowadays.

Edited September 5, 2023 by TakenStew22

[roadworx]

3 hours ago, BiZ said:

 

it was absolutely not the secondary aspect. The post that started this was about the reviewer "doing it wrong" by pistol-starting instead of playing this wad continuous...at least on its face. Now after some sussing out it seems like the real issue was that "the reviewer criticized the creator that i hold on a pedestal."

 

As for the alleged personal attacks, its a futile endeavor to argue about imo. Just scroll back a dozen pages to the controversy surrounding the btsx e2 episode. This reminds me so much of that. If you want to have an actual dialogue about it regarding this episode, i went back and watched the video again but I'm really struggling to figure out where the personal attacks are, so a timestamp or quote would definitely provide some concrete footing to facilitate the conversation you want. (I'm not saying you are wrong, just that we are all going to have different perspectives, interpretations, levels of sensitivities, etc.)

 

In general though, i just disagree with this notion that players are only allowed to have or express opinions on the work and not the author as if the two things exist in a vacuum. That seems like pure fantasy to me. I'm struggling to think of any critic that doesn't sometimes reference the author in regards to to their work, that doesn't try to divine their intent or motivation behind the work, that doesn't notice or reference trends or quirks across the creators body of work.

 

 

you do realize that dynamo and i are two separate people, right? i'm the one talking mostly about how the wad is played, while dynamo mostly takes issue with insulting creators. i will admit that him shitting on thomas does tick me off a bit because i honestly do hold him on a bit of a pedestal, but i brought that up more because dynamo takes issue with it and i was trying to contribute. i probably did overreact a bit tho

 

tbh, my primary issue isn't really that he shits on creators. yeah, it's not great to do, but...it happens. people say stuff. the issue i have with this, however, extends beyond requiem (because, as i've said, i dont really like it that much). it's much more to do with playing everything uv-max pistol start only when that can really make you blow off some truly great wads.

 

as i stated earlier, that era was a time where most people played continuous, and most wads were primarily catered towards that experience as the authors expected people to play that way. yes, they allowed pistol start, but that wasn't the main focus. as such, it's harder to appreciate stuff that was made in that era when you play it in a modern uv-max pistol start playstyle, and it kinda sucks to see someone stubbornly adhere to modern principles when playing older wads, y'know? 

 

while i don't care for requiem, i'm really passionate about 90s and early-mid 2000s doom wads. what worries me - and this isn't just about mtpain, this goes for everyone - is that this trend of only uv-max pistol starting is gonna shift the general opinion on really great wads, which doesn't include requiem, simply because people refuse to be more open to other modes of play. whether or not the map uses outdated level design has nothing to do with it, because that deserves criticism; i'm specifically talking about not wanting to step outside your comfort zone and maybe look at things from a different angle. if you don't like it regardless, then that's fine, more power to you. at the very least, however, give it a fair chance instead of stacking the odds against it, because who knows, you may find it more enjoyable (or not) that way.

 

that's my main issue. now quit trying to make it out as though i'm only upset that he shat on mappers i like, because honestly, that's the least of my concern. i'm more worried about if he ever reviews mm2, because that's absolutely meant for continuous. it doesn't play well with pistol start, and if he does that, he'll end up hating it, and then a bunch of people who've never even played it will take his opinion of it being a slog with way too much ammo starvation and roll with it as though it's objective truth.

Edited September 6, 2023 by roadworx

[Benjogami]

The rules for how the maps are played need to be rigid for the grades to make sense. It's the only way to compare apples to apples. That's just the format of the show, and it wouldn't make sense to change it just because some wads don't shine their best within the rules.

 

I think this "trend" of pistol starting and UV-Maxing that you're seeing is mostly happening among content creators because people see the content working for some people and want to use the same format. It's also so you can compare apples to apples, even if you aren't grading things. You still want to see it all and showcase it all. Pistol starting and 100%ing is a simple way that everyone understands to demonstrate that you saw it all, even if it doesn't work equally well for all maps. And yeah maybe content creators will get more people pistol starting and trying to 100% stuff, but there will always be people playing continuously, using mods, jumping when they shouldn't be, doing everything wrong, etc etc. It's fine, it's gonna be okay. People will still like 90s wads. I like 90s wads.

 

RE: The Dean of Mean, I could write a whole essay about it, but meh. I'll just say that people shat all over joe-ilya's maps for years when he was a literal child just being passionate and trying to learn and create stuff. Yeah sure maybe he was (and is) annoying, but the way he was the constant butt of the joke always bothered me. I think these literal gen Xers that are legends of the community can handle hearing that a part of their 90s map was "idiotic."

[Blast_Brothers]

If Mt.Pain harps on about how tough the map is to pistol start, and gives it a C, I think the proper reaction is not to say, "MtPain shouldn't be playing the WAD that way, it's supposed to be played continuous", it's "He gave it a C for the rough pistol start, so I'd probably enjoy it at a B or B- level if I ever play through this set continuously." Besides, if you're just watching the review and haven't played the mapset, him complaining about the rough pistol start is the only way you'll know that the map has a rough pistol start, which may affect how you decide to play the mapset for yourself.

 

If he complains about a WAD being really grindy on UV, the audience takeaway should be either "I'm better at Doom than him, so I'd probably enjoy this WAD more on UV than his grade suggests" or "I'm about the same level of player (or lower) as him, so I'll play on a lower skill level to have more fun."

 

Copy and paste this same argument for "monster window dressing".

 

I never saw MtPain's grades as something you're just supposed to accept at face value - but they provide a useful baseline for calibrating your own, hypothetical grade for the WAD, based on how his preferences differ from yours. And I think he goes out of his way to cultivate that "baseline" quality by playing every WAD the same way, even if that means a mapset gets "unfairly" dinged for one reason or another. Maybe some people do take his grades at face value, but that's their fault.

[Faceman2000]

4 hours ago, jazzmaster9 said:

his constant pcorf jokes in another video

His pcorf comments have made me uncomfortable in at least two videos that I can recall. His maps aren’t your style, I get it, but no need to get personal - especially about someone still active in the community.

[LoatharMDPhD]

20 hours ago, Roofi said:

From my experience, I played hundred wads made before 2000 and few of them were very hostile to pistol-start. I played Requiem on pistol start years ago and it was fine most of the time. 

 

And as modern mappers, mapmakers from the 90' had to individually test their map.

 

 

// as an idiot savant linux slade user, i save every 10-15 min or so, as a separate iteration, and file name, then every +3 iterations i manual load the wad into the terminal and test the thing... not just the latest changes, but i also try and break the map, and similar to cooking, you have to keep tasting and adjust the seasoning...

[Capellan]

I briefly watched his Rats in the Walls, "Chaos Zone" and Bitter Herb reviews.  They're all reasonable enough.

 

I also happened to catch the end of his Black Gate and Doorway to Quake reviews as a result, which were an amusing juxtaposition in that the map he bagged on for being too much of an iD rip-off was not the literal re-creation of an iD map.  I get why, but it's still amusing.

 

If he dissed The Canyon or nataS ot etubirT, though, we shall have to disagree.  I like those maps a lot.

[baja blast rd.]

8 hours ago, DreadWanderer said:

Something I thought about is a fundamental asymmetry in review reactions, in the sense that you're more likely to see hot debates about bad scores than you would in reviews with good scores.

 

Yeah I would love to notice one day that this thread got 3-4 pages of responses to one video and then find out that 90% of that is not related to "controversy" in any way, but I doubt that can happen...

[jazzmaster9]

1 hour ago, Faceman2000 said:

His pcorf comments have made me uncomfortable in at least two videos that I can recall. His maps aren’t your style, I get it, but no need to get personal - especially about someone still active in the community.

It kinda made me stop watching for a bit and had to come back to it later.

Have to remember which episode that was in particular 

[xScavengerWolfx]

Oh boy, i see a lot of people getting pissy about what Mt. Pain said in this one.

 

I wounder how long it's going to be before the thread needs to cool down again?

 

For the people getting a bit let's say "a bit on the pissy side of thing" I look at his videos as entertainment not a insult or disrespecting mappers. He's being honest about what he dose and dose not like about a map and what is wrong with it, he has said "After all, disagreeing is apart of the fun. At the end of the day this is about spreading the joy of doom...so let's do so".

 

I mean be in his shoes for a moment: Would you like it if you spend months reviewing the same mega wad over and over and over, writing down your thoughts on how you like and dislike the map (not the mapper, the map itself), uploaded it to Youtube and come here and have to read all the people either giving there options on how they like it but it could've been better or the little group of mappers that get offended by commentary. Now i can hear the key boards being slammed down and calling me out for saying what i am saying but here's my defense on this, If i had mt. pain 27 review my mega wad for doom 1 and he started saying how bad it was and give it a D or an E for difficulty and a D or a F for quality: Am i going to run here and start up an uproar over it? No. I would thank him for playing it and take the feedback and rework some the kinks out to make it better in the end.

 

Now is this comment going to get a lot of people pissed at me because i don't "understand"? Maybe, maybe not. That is all up to you to decided.  

Edited September 6, 2023 by xScavengerWolfx

[BiZ]

1 hour ago, roadworx said:

you do realize that dynamo and i are two separate people, right? i'm the one talking mostly about how the wad is played, while dynamo mostly takes issue with insulting creators. i will admit that him shitting on thomas does tick me off a bit because i honestly do hold him on a bit of a pedestal, but i brought that up more because dynamo takes issue with it and i was trying to contribute. i probably did overreact a bit tho

 

tbh, my primary issue isn't really that he shits on creators. yeah, it's not great to do, but...it happens. people say stuff. the issue i have with this, however, extends beyond requiem (because, as i've said, i dont really like it that much). it's much more to do with playing everything uv-max pistol start only when that can really make you blow off some truly great wads.

 

as i stated earlier, that era was a time where most people played continuous, and most wads were primarily catered towards that experience as the authors expected people to play that way. yes, they allowed pistol start, but that wasn't the main focus. as such, it's harder to appreciate stuff that was made in that era when you play it in a modern uv-max pistol start playstyle, and it kinda sucks to see someone stubbornly adhere to modern principles when playing older wads, y'know? 

 

while i don't care for requiem, i'm really passionate about 90s and early-mid 2000s doom wads. what worries me - and this isn't just about mtpain, this goes for everyone - is that this trend of only uv-max pistol starting is gonna shift the general opinion on really great wads, which doesn't include requiem, simply because people refuse to be more open to other modes of play. whether or not the map uses outdated level design has nothing to do with it, because that deserves criticism; i'm specifically talking about not wanting to step outside your comfort zone and maybe look at things from a different angle. if you don't like it regardless, then that's fine, more power to you. at the very least, however, give it a fair chance instead of stacking the odds against it, because who knows, you may find it more enjoyable (or not) that way.

 

that's my main issue. now quit trying to make it out as though i'm only upset that he shat on mappers i like, because honestly, that's the least of my concern. i'm more worried about if he ever reviews mm2, because that's absolutely meant for continuous. it doesn't play well with pistol start, and if he does that, he'll end up hating it, and then a bunch of people who've never even played it will take his opinion of it being a slog with way too much ammo starvation and roll with it as though it's objective truth.

 

Buddy, you keep asking me if I realize this, or realize that like I'm some oblivious child...So let me ask you, with all due respect, do you realize that when I quote you I'm talking to you and when I quote somebody else I'm talking to them?

 

Look I understand your position, we've peeled that onion. You like a thing. Somebody else doesn't. You think that if they would have just done the thing this other, more correct way (according to you), then they would change their mind and also like the thing you like (or appreciate it more or whatever). I get it, youre passionate about a thing, thats cool.

 

What are we supposed now go back and forth about some hypothetical review that you think could maybe, possibly, happen at some point in the future? Where some wad you enjoy doesn't get the score you were hoping for, and that some how leads to a cascading domino effect where people no longer appreciate said wad as much as you think they should appreciate it? I have no interest in that.

[xScavengerWolfx]

Hey Baja quick question for ya.

 

How long dose it take for this thread to be locked under a cool down timer? Just curious 

[T-Rex]

So, I had a watch at Dean of Doom's review of Requiem, and here's my two cents on it.

 

Requiem is by no means a perfect wad as it had some hiccups, like the fact that trying to achieve 100% on Den of the Skull is impossible, or that most of the maps are linear, but nevertheless, a great chunk of them are high-quality made by some of the most talented mappers of the 90s, like Thomas Moller has always been one of the best, no matter what MtPain27 says, Adelusion and Iikka Keranen are also very good, and I like Cappelan's offerings as many of his maps are nice little breathers, especially after going through maps like Skinny Puppy, Procrustes Chambers and Downer. All in all, Requiem is very much the Alien Vendetta of its time, only not as difficult, and it would have been a bona fide legend if there was someone keeping the team together and thoroughly playtesting the maps to ensure that any bugs were ironed out. It still remains one of my favourite megawads to play through as every map feels like a pilgrimage, even some of the bad ones. Den of the Skull, for example, has an interesting concept, but it did feel like it was in its beta stage as there were clearly issues with it that were never fixed up, and if it wasn't for Den of the Skull, I wouldn't have tried out crush.wad, also by Anthony Galica, and a nicely well done and fun map. And speaking of Memento Mori 1 and 2, I like Memento Mori and find it to be about the same quality and difficulty as TNT: Evilution.

 

While I know that MtPain27's shtick is reviewing wads through a modern lens, I think it does result in him judging a good chunk of the 90s wads and megawads very harshly and giving them grades, whether it be for quality or difficulty, that aren't really accurate. Case in point, Hell Revealed, not a bad review, but he makes it sound much harder and bad than it really is. Yes, taking out groups of barons with a weak weapon like a shotgun, can be annoying and tedious, but that doesn't make it horribly difficult than it is artificial lengthening, plus they do come in useful at times, like in The Black Towers, they are ideal for dealing with the revenants in the outdoor blood fountain and the cyberdemons that are released from their marble boxes, and in Judgement Day, those teleporting barons are to be lured into infighting the sleeping cyberdemon, and speaking of Judgement Day, I like its architecture and theme as it reminds me of Ultimate Doom Thy Flesh Consumed. Personally, I don't believe that just because a wad is hard that makes it a classic, but MtPain27 royally exaggerated the difficulty of Hell Revealed and inadvertently made many players hate on it too much. Meanwhile, he overpraises and undervalues Plutonia's reputation as the hardest of the official wads released by id Software, like seriously, B- Lightly Broiled? I find that to be very misleading and not understanding the Casali Brothers' intentions to make a wad that caters to the veterans coming out of playing Doom 2 and looking for a challenge, and honestly, the incline between Doom 2 and Plutonia, even from TNT: Evilution, is very steep. A good chunk of the wads have traps that are pretty kaizoesque and the maps demand using the exact strategy to take out the opposition as the map layout also works against you, so the Casalis really punish you for going one direction and the other and not the golden mean that you have to find. Sure, it's not like Sunder, but still, I even find Go 2 It to be much harder and sadistic than Resistance is Futile, though barely outdone by Post Mortem. Monster body counts don't necessarily make a level difficult, it's also the types used, and weapons you're given to take them out, and how the level design and terrain gives them an advantage over you.

 

My gripes is that many think MtPain27 is like an authority on Doom wads and treat his word like the gospel. It does result in just missing out wads that are actually good, and for their time, were competently made, especially when you compare them to the average 1994 wad, and will just quickly say that because it's "not pistol start friendly on UV, it automatically sucks," which is a very narrow-minded way of seeing wads, especially those made back in the 90s were pistol-starting each map was never the intended way of playing Doom and having to pistol-start a later map is more of a penalty for failing to go through it. Wads made back in the 90s were basically sink-or-swim type of wads, and you always have the option to play at a lower difficulty before attempting Ultra-Violence. Yes, there is a balance between genuine difficulty and fake difficulty, and yes, wads today were made to be more accessible for casual players, but to compare a wad made back in the 90s to one made in the 2010s is unfair, taking into account how level editors made back then were not the same as something like Doom Builder.

 

At the end of it all, it really all comes down to taste and what's your preference when playing Doom maps.

[roadworx]

1 hour ago, BiZ said:

 

Buddy, you keep asking me if I realize this, or realize that like I'm some oblivious child...So let me ask you, with all due respect, do you realize that when I quote you I'm talking to you and when I quote somebody else I'm talking to them?

 

Look I understand your position, we've peeled that onion. You like a thing. Somebody else doesn't. You think that if they would have just done the thing this other, more correct way (according to you), then they would change their mind and also like the thing you like (or appreciate it more or whatever). I get it, youre passionate about a thing, thats cool.

 

What are we supposed now go back and forth about some hypothetical review that you think could maybe, possibly, happen at some point in the future? Where some wad you enjoy doesn't get the score you were hoping for, and that some how leads to a cascading domino effect where people no longer appreciate said wad as much as you think they should appreciate it? I have no interest in that.

you saying that made me realize how stupid this whole thing is. thanks, and sorry for making myself look like an idiot

[jmac]

I disagree with quite a bit of what the dean of doom said in this video, but the "personal attacks" felt pretty mild to me. Any good mapper puts a lot of themselves into the maps they make, so it isn't unreasonable to make interpretations on the mapper's intentions while playing their work. I don't believe critics of any medium should have to walk on eggshells in their reviews.

[Firedust]

2 hours ago, T-Rex said:

My gripes is that many think MtPain27 is like an authority on Doom wads and treat his word like the gospel. It does result in just missing out wads that are actually good, and for their time, were competently made, especially when you compare them to the average 1994 wad, and will just quickly say that because it's "not pistol start friendly on UV, it automatically sucks," which is a very narrow-minded way of seeing wads, especially those made back in the 90s were pistol-starting each map was never the intended way of playing Doom and having to pistol-start a later map is more of a penalty for failing to go through it.

You're 100% on point here. Unfortunately, this will always be something unavoidable when it comes to pretty much all critics, be it music, books, movies, game mods, etc. Herd mentality has been a thing for a good while now and far from every member of the audience is mature enough to reserve their judgement until experiencing a work of art themselves - and that's fine.

The important thing to keep in mind is that someone's criticism (even if they supposedly have 'authority' on the subject) should never lessen or devalue your personal enjoyment of anything, no matter how hard it gets lambasted, because there's no such thing as an 'objective' review or grade. It's all opinions anyway and as long as everyone's civil in their disagreement, a little bit of discourse may actually generate some really fruitful discussion imho.

[Akagi666]

It's weird seeing how upset people get about these reviews. It's just some guy on YouTube, who cares if he doesn't like something you like? Also, I'm not some kind of Mt. Pain dickrider, I watch him occasionally, sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't. The reactions people have to his negative reviews are ridiculous though.

[VoanHead]

1 hour ago, Akagi666 said:

It's weird seeing how upset people get about these reviews. It's just some guy on YouTube, who cares if he doesn't like something you like? Also, I'm not some kind of Mt. Pain dickrider, I watch him occasionally, sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't. The reactions people have to his negative reviews are ridiculous though.

My two cents: MtPain has given a scalding review towards Doom 64, an entry of the series that I like, and while yeah I’m a bit sad he didn’t enjoy it as much as I did, I can come to terms and respect his opinion. I tend to look at his reviews of older wads as a second opinion and as a test of time to see if the wads hold up to this very day. Sure, the tools used back then to make maps were primitive compared to today’s, but I don’t really see that as a proper excuse to the quality of the maps. If a map is good regardless if the tools were pretty limited, then it’s a good map nonetheless imo.
 

At the end of the day, there really is no need to get upset over his videos, much less on a video about an old unorthodox pwad.

Edited September 6, 2023 by VoanHead

[Helm]

The Dean of Doom show over many episodes increasingly feels like an exercise by the (very talented) writer/presenter in coming up with interesting turns of phrase to say much the same range of things, over and over. The overfamiliarity with mappers both current and of a different time comes with the general overfamiliarity with its own package and format, as the show has become ingrained in the subculture. This is a very difficult thing to avoid if you make some sort of serialized content for the internet, and especially if you are successful! The initial creativity that is self-fuelling, the novelty of doing something of depth about something as seemingly simple as Doom maps, and the spontaneity of the initial problem solving wane as the obligations of the format itself become heavier and heavier. "Content" is a self-regurgitating machine. Perhaps a long running (in essence) tv show about megawads ranked against each other has a small hybris at its own core. Art was never meant to be ranked, ranking things actually isn't fun, or at least it isn't as fun as it initially seemed. Getting an outsider's view and ranking about something you made can be an insightful fire-starting thing, a very punk rock thing, a 'fuck you if you don't like it, that's how I felt!' kind of thing. But what if the one ranking you and your creativity is now enmeshed in the community and widely respected? Should the tone change? With more power comes greater responsibility. In essence though, perhaps we get ranked enough - or too much - in our daily lives as it is so there is a hard time limit to such projects no matter how charitable one feels about them.  

If you've ever written coppy for anything that's supposed to be packaged entertainment for an audience you know personally the anxiety of having to come up with interesting language and delivery every single time to basically say the same thing over and over. One can feel like a telemarketer that has to write a whole new fable for every new telemarketing item that comes up on the screen, lest they be exposed, in some strange way as someone engaged in something more cynical than the self-propelled joy of a cultural appreciator sharing observations about a loved thing.

I maintain that Doom maps - though entertaining - are art, especially in the sense that custom wads are made and distributed for free, by amateurs. They should not be held to the rules of the marketplace (or we should protect them in any case from as much of this mentality as possible) and ranking them against each other is a consumer tendency that has been beaten into us by the hierarchical systems that oppress us. Then, additional tensions arise, when any one successful and eloquent authority figure has funny quips for us when he hates a map and in order to get their content across with impact, they get familiar with what is essentially very mysterious people: Not superstar game developers, not John Romero, not paid professionals that sold us a product, but amateurs, teenage mappers, lonely friends from 10, 20, 30 years ago, all with their private stories which we may never really know, who shared their creativity with us for free. And now we have for them a funny turn of phrase and a letter grade for their work, thanks a lot, the past! This is how we repackage ourselves. A deeper humility towards actual human beings that spent parts of their finite lives to make 3d mazes for a myriad of different reasons gets washed away inexorably by the demanding strictures of the format. 

Think of your own self and how many youtube channels you have enthusiastically subscribed to and then for strange reasons, down the line you unsubscribe to even though the content itself has not changed in quality - there's just more and more of it - slowly subsuming its own purpose by its own success. I remember when there was nearly nothing Doom related on youtube and what a rush of Recognition (in the Hegelian sense) it was to start seeing interesting voices pop up and establish themselves but there is a rise and a fall to such things, governed by market strictures and the rules of media content creation that I am describing above. 

 

[xScavengerWolfx]

3 hours ago, VoanHead said:

My two cents: MtPain has given a scalding review towards Doom 64, an entry of the series that I like, and while yeah I’m a bit sad he didn’t enjoy it as much as I did, I can come to terms and respect his opinion. I tend to look at his reviews of older wads as a second opinion and as a test of time to see if the wads hold up to this very day. Sure, the tools used back then to make maps were primitive compared to today’s, but I don’t really see that as a proper excuse to the quality of the maps. If a map is good regardless if the tools were pretty limited, then it’s a good map nonetheless imo.
 

At the end of the day, there really is no need to get upset over his videos, much less on a video about an old unorthodox pwad.

I will agree with you on one thing: I think people should stop throwing up torches and pitchforks over stupid shit like that, i mean for god sakes it's entertainment people, i will never understand why people get offended when mt pain give legit criticism on how good or bad the maps are even if they we're made in the mid to late 90's.

 

I know i know i get it, the map editors we're pretty bad back in those days for mapping but like you said at the end of the day. What's the point of getting pissed off over something that went through so much hell and trouble to get off the ground, i think in my own option that something like this mega wad is a icon of a bye gone era where Quake 1 was ruling the nest and people thought the doom modding community was going to die off because of quake....Well here we are 30 years later and doom modding is still thriving.

 

What my point is yes i agree with you on the fact of people need to stop crying like whinnies piss babies and just get over it. Also I do too

enjoyed mt. pain's  Doom 64 video and i like Doom 64. 

Edited September 6, 2023 by xScavengerWolfx

[ReaperAA]

On 9/6/2023 at 9:46 AM, T-Rex said:

While I know that MtPain27's shtick is reviewing wads through a modern lens, I think it does result in him judging a good chunk of the 90s wads and megawads very harshly and giving them grades, whether it be for quality or difficulty, that aren't really accurate. Case in point, Hell Revealed, not a bad review, but he makes it sound much harder and bad than it really is. Yes, taking out groups of barons with a weak weapon like a shotgun, can be annoying and tedious, but that doesn't make it horribly difficult than it is artificial lengthening, plus they do come in useful at times, like in The Black Towers, they are ideal for dealing with the revenants in the outdoor blood fountain and the cyberdemons that are released from their marble boxes, and in Judgement Day, those teleporting barons are to be lured into infighting the sleeping cyberdemon, and speaking of Judgement Day, I like its architecture and theme as it reminds me of Ultimate Doom Thy Flesh Consumed. Personally, I don't believe that just because a wad is hard that makes it a classic, but MtPain27 royally exaggerated the difficulty of Hell Revealed and inadvertently made many players hate on it too much. Meanwhile, he overpraises and undervalues Plutonia's reputation as the hardest of the official wads released by id Software, like seriously, B- Lightly Broiled? I find that to be very misleading and not understanding the Casali Brothers' intentions to make a wad that caters to the veterans coming out of playing Doom 2 and looking for a challenge, and honestly, the incline between Doom 2 and Plutonia, even from TNT: Evilution, is very steep. A good chunk of the wads have traps that are pretty kaizoesque and the maps demand using the exact strategy to take out the opposition as the map layout also works against you, so the Casalis really punish you for going one direction and the other and not the golden mean that you have to find. Sure, it's not like Sunder, but still, I even find Go 2 It to be much harder and sadistic than Resistance is Futile, though barely outdone by Post Mortem. Monster body counts don't necessarily make a level difficult, it's also the types used, and weapons you're given to take them out, and how the level design and terrain gives them an advantage over you.

 

TBF, I don't I think its entirely wrong to review wads through a modern lens. It's a way to see which wad has stood the test of time better than it's contemporaries. Alien Vendetta is from similar era (only 4 years newer than Requiem) and Dean gave it a high score which means in his opinion, AV stood the test of time much better.

 

Also speaking about Plutonia and Hell Revealed, I have different opinion. While the average map in HR isn't super hard or anything, the hardest maps are vastly harder than anything Plutonia throws. Post Mortem isn't just barely harder than Go 2 It. It's magnitudes harder. Resistance is Futile I find to be around the same level of difficulty as Go 2 It (it's shorter and lighter than Go 2 It, but has more nastier Cyberdemon placement), but there are atleast 8-10 maps in HR that I find harder than Resistance is Futile.