The Dean of Doom series (companion thread)

[Dr. Zin]

Everyone likes to hear a review rip into a bad map, until the reviewer takes a shot at something they like. Those of you saying Mt.Pain crossed a line calling Tarnsman's map pretentious have some pretty hypocritical piety when he's labelled Magikal a sadist for CC1 Map29's convoluted progression and Huy Pham a megalomaniac for Deus Vult's grandiosity (among others). Yep, we'll all cheer when Mt.Pain dunks on Hell Revealed 2 because the Doom Community has decided it's a "bad" map set, but god forbid he says something negative about BTSX because that megawad was put together by pillars of the community! Also, if Mt. Pain's language offends you then you sure as hell shouldn't watch Tarnsman's Twitch streams, because he can be just as caustic in his criticisms (if not more so). Admittedly, I haven't listened in a while and maybe he's mellowed out, but he certainly loved ripping on maps that were in his mind "subpar." Does this make him a bad person? No, and Mt.Pain isn't either, and their content would be dull, tedious and emotionless trash without injecting a little fun and personal opinions.

 

Now, I'm all for being gentle with new mappers: they need people building them up, not tearing them down. That said, once a mapper's got the basics down they should grow a backbone and be able to handle criticism, even if it isn't handed to them watered down and sugar coated. I have agree with Doomkid, I've personally had some pretty harsh criticism leveled at my maps, I was called out by name in a couple reviews of CC3 as having made some of the worst maps in the wad. Were they right? Similar to what Tarnsman said above, I think some of the criticism was missing the point that I was going for making the maps - on the other hand a lot of it was justified and now I make much better work because of it. If people get offended by reviewers using creative ways to express their views in a *gasp* entertaining manner maybe they should just stick to speed runs without commentary. Or maybe grow out of performative pearl clutching as an attempt to ingratiate themselves with their idols in the community.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Dr. Zin

[SteelPH]

8 minutes ago, Dr. Zin said:

Everyone likes to hear a review rip into a bad map, until the reviewer takes a shot at something they like. Those of you saying Mt.Pain crossed a line calling Tarnsman's map pretentious have some pretty hypocritical piety when he's labelled Magikal a sadist for CC1 Map29's convoluted progression and Huy Pham a megalomaniac for Deus Vult's grandiosity (among others). Yep, we'll all cheer when Mt.Pain dunks on Hell Revealed 2 because the Doom Community has decided it's a "bad" map set, but god forbid he says something negative about BTSX because that megawad was put together by pillars of the community! Also, if Mt. Pain's language offends you then you sure as hell shouldn't watch Tarnsman's Twitch streams, because he can be just as caustic in his criticisms (if not more so). Admittedly, I haven't listened in a while and maybe he's mellowed out, but he certainly loved ripping on maps that were in his mind "subpar." Does this make him a bad person? No, and Mt.Pain isn't either, and their content would be dull, tedious and emotionless trash without injecting a little fun and personal opinions.

 

Now, I'm all for being gentle with new mappers: they need people building them up, not tearing them down. That said, once a mapper's got the basics down they should grow a backbone and be able to handle criticism, even if it isn't handed to them watered down and sugar coated. I have agree with Doomkid, I've personally had some pretty harsh criticism leveled at my maps, I was called out by name in a couple reviews of CC3 as having made some of the worst maps in the wad. Were they right? Similar to what Tarnsman said above, I think some of the criticism was missing the point that I was going for making the maps - on the other hand a lot of it was justified and now I make much better work because of it. If people get offended by reviewers using creative ways to express their views in a *gasp* entertaining manner maybe they should just stick to speed runs without commentary. Or maybe grow out of performative pearl clutching as an attempt to ingratiate themselves with their idols in the community.

This reads like one big strawman. The problem isn't his critique of the maps themselves, hell I find myself agreeing with much of his points, but rather it's that he felt the need to make personal jabs at the authors. It wasn't cool when he did it to Magikal's corpse, it wasn't cool when he did it to Huy Pham, it wasn't cool when he did it to Gene Bird, and it certainly isn't cool now doing it to Tarnsman either.

[jazzmaster9]

1 hour ago, MattFright said:

 

I didn't have that view of them before but, you have to admit, every other author and lots of their friends creating over two pages of argument over one or two things someone said in a 30 minute video doesn't exactly speak humility. 

I don't really understand where this is coming from.  the mappers involved in the discourse were very respectful and were simply taken aback by the back handed comment. Ribbiks and Tarns simply told their side so i don't know what humility they were lacking. 

I will never make a 30 minute detailed map ever in my entire life thanks to these arbitrary checklist of "stroking your artistic ego" going around (looks at Abysm 2's overworld map, ooops to late).

Edited September 5, 2022 by jazzmaster9

[AtticTelephone]

3 hours ago, skillsaw said:

...In Yugiboy's initial comment (the YouTube screenshot), though, he isn't pointing out that MtPain criticized the maps unfairly, he's pointing out that MtPain criticized people unfairly. It's a significant distinction.

 

I wasn't a fan of MtPain turning Gene Bird into a meme in the CC2 review, regardless of the quality of his maps and how much or little they were enjoyed, and I'm also not a fan of accusations that someone is an egomaniac on the basis of having played a large Doom level by them. It's a personal attack, and that is the line that was crossed, and why some people are upset. Nothing about the map criticism in the episode is unfair in the least. I seriously thought the line was a badly delivered, throwaway joke, until it was pointed out to me that MtPain doubled down on it in his comment.

I honestly think that criticizing people themselves for their maps is ok and makes solid entertainment. I would say that if you make a magnum opus wannabe with little substance, there's a decent chance that the person themselves has a larger-than-average ego when it comes to mapping. Also Gene Bird being made fun of was not really that funny, but I personally don't care if it was in bad taste or not, I only care if it's entertaining, and for the ego comments on those fellas from BTSX, it was entertaining.

 

People are going to fucking hate me for saying this shit lol.

[TheLippyServer]

8 minutes ago, SteelPH said:

This reads like one big strawman. The problem isn't his critique of the maps themselves, hell I find myself agreeing with much of his points, but rather it's that he felt the need to make personal jabs at the authors. It wasn't cool when he did it to Magikal's corpse, it wasn't cool when he did it to Huy Pham, it wasn't cool when he did it to Gene Bird, and it certainly isn't cool now doing it to Tarnsman either.

It's not a strawman. It's an observation. People on this site say way worse things about Sandy Petersen than has ever come out of MtPain's vids. And yet I never have to read through pages of whining about it because people don't give a shit about him. Where was the stirring defense of Christen Klie? Someone have a thread to point me in the direction of? Hell I saw a post in an everything else thread about how great it would be for Elon Musk to be hit by a car and no one said anything. The vitriol at this episode very clearly stems not from the perceived violation of some phony principal no one on this site actually adheres to with any real consistency, but from the MtPain grilling a sacred cow. Just like it was when he had some not so nice things to say about Doom 64 and the thread had to be locked because people were throwing a hissy fit. People like BTSX and are mad that he gave it a lesser grade than they would have and are opportunistically grandstanding is what it looks like to me.

[Tarnsman]

The ego comment to my understanding was about the entire team, not exclusively me.

 

My entire critique also had nothing to do with that comment. It was about reading to much into authorial intent and it hampering his criticism by making it not make sense. He can call me an asshole I don't care about that. But "radiating smugness with it's unorthodox weapon pick up order" is where you're getting too artsy for your own good. Criticism shouldn't make the recipient say, "what are you even talking about?".

 

That said I also wouldn't call Magikal sadistic or really make any assumptions about him as a person, even though I would say CC1 Map 6 is a terrible map and CC1 Map 29 is one of the most exhausting Doom experiences of all time. Same thing goes for HR2. I can say The Inmost Dens 3 is one of the worst maps ever made while also not saying anything about the person who made it or getting into what they were thinking when they made it.

[Lucius Wooding]

I'm confused, were anyone's feelings actually hurt over this? Because it seems like it's not that big a deal.

[xScavengerWolfx]

I might get some backlash for this but it's the internet.

 

I've played this one and BTSX ep 1 on the unity port. I never finished both of them because to me they dragged on for too long.

 

Since becoming a mapper and going through them again, I still think there fun in there own right but some of the maps are just so goddamn long and drawn out to play. I'm going to get slapped with a "Just git gud" zoomer lingo for saying that but the fact of the matter is, i agree with Mt. Pain on this one.

 

I mean everyone has an option and i don't see why we need to start a flame war over "well map (insert map name here) is better then this map from (insert CP mapset here). Can we all accept the fact that this is for entertainment, not a slug fest of why we hate this or that?

 

I mean to me most of these comments are coming off as "Well your wrong about this map", i don't think he intended the videos or this post to be like that. As Mt. Pain27 said once "At the end of the day, it's about spreading the joy of doom" not "let's dunk on him or other people that don't like what we like". 

 

Again i might get some back lash for this but i don't care, it's the internet. I'm just another face behind the screen and another person typing this comment out for every one to read.

Edited September 5, 2022 by xScavengerWolfx

[jazzmaster9]

Well you won't because no one here is debating about his opinion's on the maps quality. I very much agreed with a fair bit of the criticism in the video and nodded with agreement with the Fair B grade. 

 

I did a very brief scan of the thread since  the video was posted and I still fail to see how this is about him not liking and criticizing a mapset.
The discussion was the very choice words in the end about the team and not his assessment of the maps and the mapset.

Edited September 5, 2022 by jazzmaster9

[TakenStew22]

I really don't want this thread to get locked again.

[xScavengerWolfx]

1 minute ago, TakenStew22 said:

I really don't want this thread to get locked again.

Not going to lie, the way it's going it might get locked again.

[Grain of Salt]

Damn, imagine if this video actually had criticized btsx instead of making a badly worded joke.

[Doomkid]

2 hours ago, SteelPH said:

personal jabs at the authors. It wasn't cool when he did it to Magikal's corpse, it wasn't cool when he did it to Huy Pham, it wasn't cool when he did it to Gene Bird, and it certainly isn't cool now doing it to Tarnsman either.

 

I'm glad we've reached the ouroboros point of this discussion, where it will just be one side of the argument saying "he shouldn't have made personal jabs" and the other side saying "wait, those jabs weren't personal, they were about mapping style" and it just repeats til it finally loses momentum.

 

For reference, this has happened before, and been clarified before:

 

On 2/13/2022 at 12:12 PM, MtPain27 said:

I dislike maps, not people. And no, I didn't go overboard, I said exactly what I wanted to say.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Tarnsman said:

"radiating smugness with it's unorthodox weapon pick up order" is where you're getting too artsy for your own good. Criticism shouldn't make the recipient say, "what are you even talking about?"

 

Well, to me it seems he felt like the map was being different for the sake of being different, grabbing your attention and sticking in your memory for how it was unusual, rather than sticking in your memory for how fun it was. Now, to me that's a bold assumption on MtPain's part - and it might even be wrong - but I don't think it's all that hard to understand.

 

I haven't played that map so I have no clue whether or not I'd agree, and disagreeing with people is fine regardless, but I really don't see it as the personal transgression some seem to, or the puzzle box that others seem to. It pretty clearly wasn't meant to hurt people or cause controversy. There's nothing artsy or confusing at all about calling weapon order unorthodox, or saying something seems pretentious.

[MarsHappyNation]

16 minutes ago, TakenStew22 said:

I really don't want this thread to get locked again.

I don't know how moderation here is handled but I don't think it should be locked unless things get miserably, irrecoverably out of hand. Better for everyone to air their grievances now than to have the conversation end abruptly with so much tension still hanging around. With everyone already conducting themselves so respectfully for the most part, this seems healthy even if not entirely productive.

Edited September 5, 2022 by MarsHappyNation

[VoanHead]

I can’t wait for the next episode. Let bygones be bygones. Why let the opinion of one man over a fan made wad get you down?

[TakenStew22]

1 minute ago, MarsHappyNation said:

I don't know how moderation here is handled but I don't think it should be locked unless things get miserably, irrecoverably out of hand. Better for everyone to air their grievances now than to have the conversation end abruptly with so much tension still hanging around. With everyone already conducting themselves so respectively for the most part, this seems healthy even if not entirely productive.

Yeah I do think it's not really that bad so far, which speaks volumes for how good the Doom community is.

[Biodegradable]

I think this is just a humble lesson in understanding how Use of Language can sometimes create the opposite effect of what you were going for. No doubt MtPain was not trying to be malicious with his comments but also wasn't going to sugar-coat his honest opinion, which is appreciated. Regardless, I think it's an honest mistake that's being a little blown out of proportion, though I understand why some people have taken umbrage with it.

 

I honestly doubt he truly has anything against any mapper whose work has been placed under his critical lens and Pain's constant need to reassert his unmitigated respect towards everyone's creative output in this community proves that.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Biodegradable

[KeaganDunn]

1 hour ago, Dr. Zin said:

Everyone likes to hear a review rip into a bad map, until the reviewer takes a shot at something they like. Those of you saying Mt.Pain crossed a line calling Tarnsman's map pretentious have some pretty hypocritical piety when he's labelled Magikal a sadist for CC1 Map29's convoluted progression and Huy Pham a megalomaniac for Deus Vult's grandiosity (among others). Yep, we'll all cheer when Mt.Pain dunks on Hell Revealed 2 because the Doom Community has decided it's a "bad" map set, but god forbid he says something negative about BTSX because that megawad was put together by pillars of the community! Also, if Mt. Pain's language offends you then you sure as hell shouldn't watch Tarnsman's Twitch streams, because he can be just as caustic in his criticisms (if not more so). Admittedly, I haven't listened in a while and maybe he's mellowed out, but he certainly loved ripping on maps that were in his mind "subpar." Does this make him a bad person? No, and Mt.Pain isn't either, and their content would be dull, tedious and emotionless trash without injecting a little fun and personal opinions.

 

This explains exactly how I feel about this situation. What, are we making a huge stink because a highly-respected member of the community reviewed and heavily criticized a highly-respected megaWAD made by the community? It wasn't that way with Hell Revealed 2, Scythe 1, Deus Vult, and a few others.

 

    Granted, I don't quite know how I feel about MtPain's "ego" statements - perhaps they're a bit too assumptive and dunk on the mapper themselves too much, who knows. And I have never touched BTSX and I have no opinion on it, but I'm aware of how exhausting it can be to play, much less make an entire 30-minute review video on each and every map of E2. Perhaps MtPain's personal thoughts will change over time, like all of ours do, and y'all will be happy when he brings it up in the regrading at the end of the season.

 

But Pain has stated his utmost respect for the community, and will stand by his own opinions regarding something as innocuous as a fanmade Doom level, just like how each and every of us has ours - certain favorites that we hold deeply (me? Most of Ribbiks' works), and certain ones that we abhor or are just out of our comfort zone.

 

Point is: This conversation is going absolutely nowhere. As seems to be the case with opinions on Doomworld...

Edited September 5, 2022 by KeaganDunn

[Dark Pulse]

I don't necessarily want to take one side or the other here, because I believe that honestly over all these posts, people have said the points that are worth saying anyway. MtPain recognizes some areas he can improve, and the community also has recognized that he wasn't trying to be as nasty as others seem to think he was.

 

What I WILL say is that while I'm sure MtPain has learned from this, I hope that it doesn't make him diverge from his reviewing "style," for lack of a better word. I do like how he does break down both things that he likes and that he does not like - word choices aside, I very much hope that remains. A good review should be able to point out good and bad for better or for worse, and with his view that it's a conversation between player and mapper in mind, I can see how he has some of the views he does. The issue is that while that makes perfect sense in his mind, it comes across very differently when presented to others - and we're all guilty of things that make perfect sense to us but get a totally different, unintended reaction when presented to someone else.

 

In due time, I think things will turn out just fine - MtPain loves this community, the community loves him back, and it's clear that he wasn't intending to tear anyone down or single anyone out. He'll learn to choose his words a bit more carefully. But in the end I think that this is a learning experience for everyone involved, and that his reviews will come out all the better for it.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Dark Pulse

[cannonball]

To be honest the only thing that raised eyebrows for me was the criticism of Map19, or in particular the unorthodox weapon pick up. The main reason being the whole digression regarding the pacing of the BTSX E1 maps that was made and then making critique of a map that doesn’t adhere to this. I don’t think it is artsy or pretentious to hand out a risky weapon and make the environment uncomfortable to play in. In fact give you are in the latter half of a wad that openly sites Alien Vendetta as an inspiration then this shouldn’t be a surprise.

As for Bee kingdom - If it doesn’t pull you in and engage you, then you are not going to have a good time with it. That is just one of those things when it comes to playing large non linear maps.

[Steveb1000]

1 hour ago, Dark Pulse said:

I don't necessarily want to take one side or the other here, because I believe that honestly over all these posts, people have said the points that are worth saying anyway. MtPain recognizes some areas he can improve, and the community also has recognized that he wasn't trying to be as nasty as others seem to think he was.

 

What I WILL say is that while I'm sure MtPain has learned from this, I hope that it doesn't make him diverge from his reviewing "style," for lack of a better word. I do like how he does break down both things that he likes and that he does not like - word choices aside, I very much hope that remains. A good review should be able to point out good and bad for better or for worse, and with his view that it's a conversation between player and mapper in mind, I can see how he has some of the views he does. The issue is that while that makes perfect sense in his mind, it comes across very differently when presented to others - and we're all guilty of things that make perfect sense to us but get a totally different, unintended reaction when presented to someone else.

 

In due time, I think things will turn out just fine - MtPain loves this community, the community loves him back, and it's clear that he wasn't intending to tear anyone down or single anyone out. He'll learn to choose his words a bit more carefully. But in the end I think that this is a learning experience for everyone involved, and that his reviews will come out all the better for it.

I'd rather MtPain gave his actual views than alter them so they are more acceptable to one community or another.

 

I see him as a critic - like an art critic,  music critic or film critic. 

 

As a 'consumer', you want that critic's genuine, independent views, not views heavily influenced by anxieties about how they will be perceived by the creative community.

 

Ref: his point about his reviews having an element of a conversation with the map author, I feel it's the same thing as with other critics.

 

Imagine reading an author's books, or a director's films, and not having any thoughts about what they intended with certain choices or having any questions about why they made certain decisions.

 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Steveb1000
Typos / clarity

[Eurisko]

I’ve just now started watching this guy while I’ve been playing ‘The Master Levels’.

He really is quite different. Very entertaining. 

[Budoka]

7 hours ago, Doomkid said:

. I know how much effort wad building is, and as a wad builder, my inclination is to grade the effort and the grind moreso than actually grading the wad by “how much fun I had as a Doom player”.

 

Now this part I don't agree with. I'm sure it took a fair amount of time and energy to make Big Crappy Shit Megawad(yes, that is an actual mapset, and is just what it claims to be) even if not as much brainstorming as a serious work would have, but at the end of the day the final result is still essentially worthless as a gameplay experience. It's much like a study exam, there's no sense in pointing out that you spent six months cram reviewing if the work you delivered doesn't meet the required passing standards. Regardless of how hard you worked on it or didn't, you failed and that's all there is to that. There's nothing else to be done for it but either make an all new attempt or change paths.

 

Anyway, I agree with Cannonball that bigger and/or more complex levels are guaranteed to be more divisive, although MountPain27's taste and mine tend to diverge in that regard, see for example the Eviternity episode: Anagnorisis, which he said wad too exhausting to look back on, I would replay every day if I had nothing more important or interesting to do, while his pick for best level of the set, Dehydration, has bored me to actual sleep multiple times. 

 

In the case of BTSX E2, I tend enjoy the longer maps the most in part precisely because they stand out, and as such help less of the the WAD run together in my head, which is somewhat infamously E1's Achilles's hill, as much as I also like that one. It's still a problem in E2, but not as much thanks to the increased ambition. And I will say the Dean raised the exact same criticism towards E1, so at some point you've got to know what you want. Content is never going to strike the exact balance a specific player is looking for down to the millimeter, after all.

 

I will say, I agree with Dr.Zin that criticism can be as direct as it wants to be and that it can often be more interesting that way, and in some cases more productive that way. But I also agree with Tarnsman that trying to read into the level author's intentions is absurd, and that appraising the level on the basis of said intentions, real OR imagined, is missing the point.

 

But honestly, and I will admit this might just be my intuition misleading me, the general tone in MtPain's voice felt way more hostile than unsual in this episode, almost as if he recorded it while in a seriously bad mood. If that is in fact the case, then I think the video should have been postponed outright. I personally make a point never to take action while under the influence of strong negative feelings, because I realize that said feelings can never in turn be an excuse for the negative consequences those actions would have.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Budoka

[Doomkid]

Sure, as I said in that post, looking more at effort than fun factor is something I have a hard time not doing and is the main reason I don’t do more reviews. They wouldn’t be that helpful to the average player. I’m glad MtPain considers effort, but ultimately only treats it as one piece of the pie - it’s more helpful to mappers and players alike than just saying “holy shit, that’s impressive, I respect the grind”. That’s an endorsement and is always nice to hear, but beyond feeling nice for a bit it’s not super helpful.

 

I’m also genuinely curious why trying to read into mapper intent is seemingly seen as a bad thing. I find it more or less impossible to observe/consume any piece of art without at least briefly considering the intention of the creator and firmly disagree that by doing so I’m “missing the point” of Doom maps altogether.
 

The point of Doom maps is to entertain the mapper and ostensibly to entertain other players, so if a map doesn’t do that for you (or heck, even if it does), it’s very natural to wonder or make assumptions what the mapper was thinking and what they intended. Now if I’m wrong about the intent and the creator wants to correct me, I’m all for that. I don’t think it would change my opinion on a map too much, but it would still be appreciated.

 

I guess ultimately the “point” of Doom maps is in the eye of the beholder. From that perspective it’s pretty much impossible to miss the point of them, since that in itself is different from person to person. For some people the point is to relax and blow off steam, for others it’s to challenge their own creative abilities, and for others still it’s to fuck with people for a cheap laugh (think most “joke” wads and terrywads). It’s subjective by nature.

[Budoka]

1 hour ago, Doomkid said:

ow if I’m wrong about the intent and the creator wants to correct me, I’m all for that. I don’t think it would change my opinion on a map too much, but it would still be appreciated.

 The problem being, even if neither the mapper nor anyone else corrects you, probability alone dictates that you're more than likely still wrong. As for an example why I say it's missing the point, let's say a map tries to be, let's say the most challenging map ever (swap with any other goal, in this case the specific intent isn't the point), but most of the people who decide to play it end up thinking it's a great map mostly because of the aesthetics and a couple encounter setups, while everything else is just okay or even filler. The resulting consensus then would be that the map in question is excellent, but NOT that it succeeds at what its author was trying to do. See the way MtPain himself summed up his opinion of Monster Condo for an actual example of such a reaction.

 

Now just to be clear, I do agree that there are limits to this mindset as well. I won't go into specifics here, but let's juts say, if someone were to misinterpret the authorial intent behind a work of literature, not simply as an organic reaction, but in order to deliberately spin the work in question against its own stated goals, I would never stand for that.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Budoka

[Omniarch]

45 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

I’m also genuinely curious why trying to read into mapper intent is seemingly seen as a bad thing. I find it more or less impossible to observe/consume any piece of art without at least briefly considering the intention of the creator and firmly disagree that by doing so I’m “missing the point” of Doom maps altogether.

In principle, there is nothing wrong with the whole "art as dialogue" bit, and trying to discern the intent (i.e design priorities / goals) of a map is downright essential for good criticism. However, getting into a huff and ascribing your subjective frustration to authorial egotism is ill-befitting of a high-profile critic, especially when said frustration is partially a result of one's own self-imposed restrictions (should have invoked the "except in cases when it's just not worth it" exception on a few ones here, me thinks).

 

Before anyone misses the point and responds with the whole "he's allowed to have his opinions, dude" bit, note that I only bring this up because of MtPain's response to Yugiboy's criticism on YT, as posted by the man himself earlier in this thread. Additionally, I have long taken umbrage with his tendency to (implicitly or otherwise) ascribe negative intent to mappers (several examples of which have been brought up in this thread already), and am only posting now because I thought he'd gotten over it by now.

 

I say the above as a fan of the show, mind you, and as someone who has yet to play BTSX E2. Personally, I very much doubt MtPain has any ill-intent towards the mappers or whatever; this little controversy strikes me more of an inevitable result of a systemic tendency to read too much into authorial intent, going beyond the critically-necessary discernment of design priorities / goals and into an implicit assessment of the author's character, which, while generally innocent, turns sour when compounded with frustration partially born of an adherence rigid set of rules that, by their nature, serve some maps better than others.

 

Ultimately, it is MtPain's prerogative to style his reviews as he pleases, and my complaints amount to little more than minor, subjective blemishes on what is otherwise a very well-produced and well-written show that knows what it wants to achieve and does so competently. Also, as a final note, his mapper-centric approach can also have very positive outcomes: by way of example, I can imagine that many newer Doomers (like myself) have put Darkwave's work on their playlists as a result of MtPain's presentation of him. Few reviwers so eloquently and emphatically voice their appreciation of the mappers themselves, and that's my favourite aspect of the show. That's why this sort of pettiness stands out to me, and why I find it bothersome.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Omniarch

[ChopBlock223]

8 hours ago, Snaxalotl said:

For real though I'm getting the vibe that wads by well known author's shouldn't receive criticism, if he said this about maps by less renowned authors then no one would have said anything. Plus there is a huge difference between criticizing a map and the author personally. This whole thing is so overblown.

Haven't watched the video, but I think calling a map/author pretentious is such a weird and specific criticism. Granted, I actually enjoyed BTSX, and he didn't (he's free not to, lots of people love Memento Mori while I think it's somewhat dull), but nothing about it struck me as pretentious. To me, a pretentious Doom level is something such as rootpain.wad, and if you've ever played or seen it, you would easily recognize it as such.

A level being large and time consuming isn't pretentious to me, and describing it that way feels hyperbolic in a mildly dumb way.

 

EDIT: Having now watched the video, it's alright. I disagree about the intermission maps being filler anymore than they were filler in E1, and he doesn't like maps which I thought were great, whatever, but the whole pretentious and ego thing is an awkward addition which I think isn't poignant or constructive.

As said before, you need to go out of your way to find odd stuff like rootpain.wad to see some actually pretentious Doom. I'm not exactly frothing at the mouth though, I don't consider it a big deal.

 

7 hours ago, TheLippyServer said:

I've only made a single map for release, and have already been referred to as 'sadistic' and 'mean'.

Sadistic can be a great compliment depending on the intent of your work and the tone of the person saying it. There's definitely levels I have played where the feeling I get is that the combat encounters were put together with a sadistic mindset, and which also made me go "Fuck yeah!" because of it. It can be really fun when a map is mean to the player.

Edited September 5, 2022 by ChopBlock223

[ZeMystic]

I probably shouldn't post twice in this thread about the same topic, but this current topic has been kind of sitting with me during the day and I want to put some of my final thoughts in on it before I hit the hay.

 

I think a few people in the thread think that the majority of the criticism comes from people being upset that a map we liked got rated poorly and we are upset about it. While that may be the case for some, I don't intend to come off like that and just wanted to express my opinions and disagreements with the review. It's like what MtPain27 says at the start of each episode, "Disagreeing is part of the fun." I'm not pissed that MtPain27 gave a map I liked a C when I would've given it a B+ at minimum, that's just how subjectivity works. I understand that MtPain27 had a very different experience then I did when I played the WAD. I still enjoyed this episode, and I disagreed with a good majority of it. 

 

I don't think MtPain27 meant any serious harm with the jokes at the authors, especially when BTSX E2 originally came out 8 years ago when I was fucking 12 lol. However many people, me included, probably wouldn't feel to good having their art called pretentious. I think most people want their map to be played and either enjoyed or not enjoyed with criticism and suggestions, and not having a full reading into whether or not the author enjoys sniffing their own farts and how the thing they enjoyed putting time in for us to play is meant to showcase an overexaggerated ego or something equally as deep into the psyche.

 

I'll probably proof-read and edit this slightly tomorrow to clear up my point. Goodnight y'all, I'll see you when the next episode drops in a few weeks.

[ChopBlock223]

4 minutes ago, ZeMystic said:

I probably shouldn't post twice in this thread about the same topic, but this current topic has been kind of sitting with me during the day and I want to put some of my final thoughts in on it before I hit the hay.

 

I think a few people in the thread think that the majority of the criticism comes from people being upset that a map we liked got rated poorly and we are upset about it. While that may be the case for some, I don't intend to come off like that and just wanted to express my opinions and disagreements with the review. It's like what MtPain27 says at the start of each episode, "Disagreeing is part of the fun." I'm not pissed that MtPain27 gave a map I liked a C when I would've given it a B+ at minimum, that's just how subjectivity works. I understand that MtPain27 had a very different experience then I did when I played the WAD. I still enjoyed this episode, and I disagreed with a good majority of it. 

 

I don't think MtPain27 meant any serious harm with the jokes at the authors, especially when BTSX E2 originally came out 8 years ago when I was fucking 12 lol. However many people, me included, probably wouldn't feel to good having their art called pretentious. I think most people want their map to be played and either enjoyed or not enjoyed with criticism and suggestions, and not having a full reading into whether or not the author enjoys sniffing their own farts and how the thing they enjoyed putting time in for us to play is meant to showcase an overexaggerated ego or something equally as deep into the psyche.

Essentially my opinion.

[yakfak]

These long form video reviews cause so much trouble :))))))))) imagine how little this'd hit if it was an essay posted on a blog and you didn't have to hear it all enunciated for impact? the presentation can kinda suspend your awareness that you're listening to a critic