The Dean of Doom series (companion thread)

[Yasha]

I think this is a similar situation to whenever he plays Ribbiks' stuff: Ribbiks clearly states that HMP is the intended experience for most people and UV is only for god players but MtPain always plays them on UV and then spends half his review going "this was a torture chamber of misery where I had to play every fight 30 times over" and like...yeah. That's what happens when you play Swim with The Whales on UV lol

[Capellan]

I'm seeing references to an MM "trilogy", which is not a thing that exists.  Requiem was a standalone project. It is not an MM project. Nor is it a TNT project.

 

Project coordination for both MM2 and Requiem was done via email, with files generally loaded to and from an FTP site. Levels came in when they came in and were played (or not) by those that wanted to 

 

I'm confident that TiC at least played all the MM2 maps as they got them, and quite possibly also did play the maps in continuous. I expect they also tried the maps on co-op.

 

Requiem lacked the same level of coordination, and particularly at the end maps were thrown in wherever there were gaps. I very much doubt anyone played all 32 levels (or even the main 30) continuous before release.

 

As far as mid 90s play culture went, I and my circle all played continuous. Opinions of saving varied; some of us saved often, others only at the start of the map.

 

I do remember that Demonfear was expressly tested on both continuous and pistol start because by 1995 the latter model of play was definitely quite common.

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

I said it before and I'll say it again. The strict rules about 100% kills and secrets, and pistol starts can hinder the experience. Some maps/wads just aren't meant to be played that way. 

 

Edit: I see now that requiem was in fact tested for pistol starts. So I need to reconsider my position. 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Sneezy McGlassFace

[jazzmaster9]

14 hours ago, roadworx said:

as much as i appreciate your thoughts on modern wads, mtpain, i reeeeally wish you would realize that a lot of 90s wads weren't meant for pistol start.

So much this. every thing will be painful and bad if you play it with an unintended disadvantage. 

Expecting every map to conform to being Blind UV-Max, and Pistol Start friendly is a recipe for disaster and unintended disappointment.

Edited September 5, 2023 by jazzmaster9

[philcul]

The blind UV max trend seems to be the bane of every mappers existence. 

[Dynamo]

Quote

As far as mid 90s play culture went, I and my circle all played continuous. Opinions of saving varied; some of us saved often, others only at the start of the map.

Interesting...

 

Also, I should note that I don't demand or ask for any changes to be made to the show: it is MtPain's biz and he should run it however he wants. And I think "disagreeing is part of the fun" holds as true as ever. I just think certain comments on mappers specifically should probably be avoided, because that then changes from being a personal opinion to being a personal attack, often against people with whom few have interacted directly in recent times.

[LSC Lasico]

18 minutes ago, AdNauseam said:

The blind UV max trend seems to be the bane of every mappers existence. 

I dont wish for it to go away. If mappers get slightly creative, they can completely fuck these players over. That will be hilarious and funny. And also very fun to play for me on UV max blind.

Edited September 5, 2023 by LSC Lasico

[DreadWanderer]

I'm really not very invested in this discussion, but I've been reading the reactions to the latest Dean of Doom episode and I get the feeling that some criticisms miss the mark.

Beyond the quite complicated issue of whether or not we should go for pistol starts for "pre-modern" wads when reviewing them, some of them might simply be not that fun to play regardless of the choice because of other factors (questionable design decisions, stale visuals, too much/too little linearity, and so on). I much prefer to bite the bullet and judge the situation like MtPain27 did - with a few exceptions, the late 90s were a nadir of development and creativity, and many people thought Doom modding and mapping were going to die due to the advent of games that were more advanced technologically for the time (think of Half-Life and Quake 3 as two prominent examples). Fortunately for us, that did not happen, but the reason it did not happen is precisely because the community upped its game through milestones like Alien Vendetta and Scythe 2 in the early to mid 2000s (and even those wads can be fairly criticized). 

It's perfectly fine to have some sort of nostalgic attachment to a janky wad from 25 years ago because it's the first wad you ever played when you were 10 years old or whatever, but that doesn't automatically mean that they should get preferential treatment when it comes to evaluating them. It's fair to contextualize and historicize criticism, but it's also equally fair not to ignore the absolutely amazing progress made over the last quarter of a century.

Lastly, I think that the obsession with UV-max playthroughs (whether blind or not) is indeed a problem, but it's a much more general problem that is not limited to the rediscovery of old wads with completely different design philosophies. I'm guilty of this myself to some extent, but at least I'm thoughtful enough to not punch above my weight in terms of difficulty.

[roadworx]

1 minute ago, DreadWanderer said:

Beyond the quite complicated issue of whether or not we should go for pistol starts for "pre-modern" wads when reviewing them, some of them might simply be not that fun to play regardless of the choice because of other factors (questionable design decisions, stale visuals, too much/too little linearity, and so on). I much prefer to bite the bullet and judge the situation like MtPain27 did - with a few exceptions, the late 90s were a nadir of development and creativity, and many people thought Doom modding and mapping were going to die due to the advent of games that were more advanced technologically for the time (think of Half-Life and Quake 3 as two prominent examples). Fortunately for us, that did not happen, but the reason it did not happen is precisely because the community upped its game through milestones like Alien Vendetta and Scythe 2 in the early to mid 2000s (and even those wads can be fairly criticized). 

 

It's perfectly fine to have some sort of nostalgic attachment to a janky wad from 25 years ago because it's the first wad you ever played when you were 10 years old or whatever, but that doesn't automatically mean that they should get preferential treatment when it comes to evaluating them. It's fair to contextualize and historicize criticism, but it's also equally fair not to ignore the absolutely amazing progress made over the last quarter of a century.

that's really not what anyone is saying, though? hell, i even mentioned that i don't like requiem, personally. as i said, the way i view the megawad is that it's an undercooked mess that, while pretty good in its first half (minus iikka's maps, i've always thought those were kinda terrible gameplay-wise), falls off a cliff in the second. this is mostly coming down to judging something negatively when you're playing it in a way that's not intended as well as berating mappers.

[Dynamo]

28 minutes ago, DreadWanderer said:

that doesn't automatically mean that they should get preferential treatment when it comes to evaluating them.

At no point did anyone say this. And historical context matters for nearly every serious review or analysis, the reason why its presence is reduced in MtPain's videos is because it is an entertainment show first and a serious review show second, which is totally fine and acceptable, and not something I don't think anyone is suggesting should be changed either.

 

28 minutes ago, DreadWanderer said:

It's perfectly fine to have some sort of nostalgic attachment to a janky wad from 25 years ago because it's the first wad you ever played when you were 10 years old or whatever

You're assuming a lot about people's preferences :P personally I played requiem after I played scythe 2 and alien vendetta and I personally prefer it to both. It's not a matter of "nostalgic attachment", which ends up being a roundabout way of saying that nobody in their right mind could possibly like something as trash as this WAD if it weren't for nostalgia. People are indeed allowed to have their preferences, and disagreeing is part of the fun, after all.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Dynamo

[VaibhavRM]

It was after his Doom 64 review ("C+?" 😖😡🥺😔😌) that I became a bit more discerning over the adherence to rules in reviewing art which will always be subjective regardless of the viewer approaching it with a rules/standards.

 

The grades from my view mean the same whether Mtpain27 came to the conclusion from following a common set of rules or not.

 

Following rules while approaching wads does make for some interesting experience and may even let one see a work in a unique way but a part of me wishes Mtpain27 would just let his instincts decide how to approach a wad/level as we are creatures of time and space affected by all sorts of externalities outside of the work itself and (perhaps I would enjoyed that book/film/game more if I read/watched/played it at home/theatre/platform or at night instead of the afternoon or when I was in a better mood.)

In short, I am thinking too much as ranking things is fun 😏

Edited September 5, 2023 by VaibhavRM

[DreadWanderer]

6 minutes ago, Dynamo said:

At no point did anyone say this. And historical context matters for nearly every serious review or analysis, the reason why its presence is reduced in MtPain's videos is because it is an entertainment show first and a serious review show second, which is totally fine and acceptable, and not something I don't think anyone is suggesting should be changed either.

 

You're assuming a lot about people's preferences :P personally I played requiem after I played scythe 2 and alien vendetta and I personally prefer it to both. It's not a matter of "nostalgic attachment", which ends up being a roundabout way of saying that nobody in their right mind could possibly like something as trash as this WAD if it weren't for nostalgia. People are indeed allowed to have their preferences, and disagreeing is part of the fun, after all.

You are right, I was being presumptuous when I wrote that, though I didn't target anyone and wasn't insinuating that one would have to be crazy to like Requiem. Do I believe that nostalgia plays a big part in a more general, abstract way? Absolutely. I was going more in a direction of "a wad's historical importance doesn't necessarily translate into a fun experience in a modern context", which is a point that the Dean of Doom series made quite transparently. That was my bad for expressing it in an overly forceful way.

[Revved]

10 minutes ago, VaibhavRM said:

It was after his Doom 64 review ("D- ?" 😖😡🥺😔😌)

That was only his grade for difficulty, with a D- in that category meaning that he saw it as pretty easy to finish, but with the caveat that he was playing it on continuous play due to the nature of D64 encouraging such a playstyle, what with having to collect three demon artifacts across several levels to upgrade the unmaker and all. His actual grade for the game's QUALITY was a C+.

[VaibhavRM]

1 minute ago, Revved said:

That was only his grade for difficulty, with a D- in that category meaning that he saw it as pretty easy to finish, but with the caveat that he was playing it on continuous play due to the nature of D64 encouraging such a playstyle, what with having to collect three demon artifacts across several levels to upgrade the unmaker and all. His actual grade for the game's QUALITY was a C+.

oops I was making a five stages of grief joke and miswrote the grade 😔

[Zulk RS]

I generally really like Dean of Doom videos and this Requiem Episode is no different. However, the one weird thing was unlike the other episodes which I did enjoy but didn't really make me want to play the wad being reviewed, this one REALLY made me want to try Requiem. I've just downloaded it and am about to fire up Zandronum.

 

[Celestin]

I don't think I understand what this fuss is about. I played Requiem last year, UV with pistol-starts and saves. Yes, there were some maps that were tight on resources, I remember MAP03 specifically gave me trouble, but at no point I felt my experience would be better with more guns and ammo (unlike, say, The Rebirth, where not playing continuous was painful). That is, aside from MAP24, but I do think starting the map with no guns and ammo was the intended challenge.

[Kinetic]

Cool episode, I don't think the rules for the show really cause any issues and they're generally good rules. Don't get too much why there's huge fuss over the pistol start vs. continuous play thing, his rules involve pistol starting which most maps are made around in the overwhelming amount of cases, and Requiem has at least a decent amount of effort catered towards pistol starting from what it looks like, so why shouldn't he evaluate the maps from that lens when it was at least designed around a bit? I thought the more prominent issue he was having was just the general action of the maps, especially ikka's maps, lots of corridors and tight spaces with heavies that don't make for engaging combat for most people these days

[DreadWanderer]

25 minutes ago, Kinetic said:

Cool episode, I don't think the rules for the show really cause any issues and they're generally good rules. Don't get too much why there's huge fuss over the pistol start vs. continuous play thing, his rules involve pistol starting which most maps are made around in the overwhelming amount of cases, and Requiem has at least a decent amount of effort catered towards pistol starting from what it looks like, so why shouldn't he evaluate the maps from that lens when it was at least designed around a bit? I thought the more prominent issue he was having was just the general action of the maps, especially ikka's maps, lots of corridors and tight spaces with heavies that don't make for engaging combat for most people these days

Precisely one of my observations. Whether or not I have a BFG and 600 cells, fighting barons and mancubi in tight spaces can only be fun up to a certain point. I'm generalizing a lot of course but the essence of the point remains.

Respect for those who have no issue with that though, this is just my opinion. My love for Doom was cemented through modern wads like Back to Saturn X, so I'm aware of the biases and predispositions I have.

[Gibbitudinous]

Speaking of Doom 64, it's funny to think about how completing it the "intended" way with all the demon keys means rendering the final boss an utter fart in the wind compared to the gantlet you have to face if you never find the keys. I know id really struggled with the concept of boss fights after getting rid of Tom Hall*, but it's really funny to contrast that with something like a JRPG where the idea of the secret "true ending" path not having a way more difficult boss at the end would be unthinkable.

*Yes, the game was made by Midway San Diego, but they were clearly following up id's design philosophy as best they could so the weak interaction between bosses and extra content feels very much like an id thing regardless.

[DJVCardMaster]

I was really dissapointed replaying Requiem two years ago, because of how bland most maps ended up, I even had a DNF playthrough getting stuck in that awful MAP12. Requiem was probably the first PWAD I've played, and although I don't think I had finished it, I had very good memories of most of its maps.
If you have good memories of it, please don't replay it, because Requiem does not deserve a second playthrough, if you enjoyed it once, you won't enjoy it twice, if you did not enjoy it at first, that's all.

This is an old example of how not to manage a community mapset.

[LadyMistDragon]

12 hours ago, roadworx said:

 

 

not to mention straight up insulting mappers because you just can't see their qualities. thomas möller, for example, is one of my favorite mappers because of how his layouts so often intersect in ways you simply don't see in most maps as well as how nasty some of his combat can be. it's actually really unique (not to mention difficult as hell to do when creating a layout) and even today you often don't see it outside a few examples in solitary maps. if you don't like it regardless, then that's perfectly fine. say the map is shit in your eyes, explain why, and move on. don't insult the creator because you can't see past your own narrow view of how a doom map should be. i know it can be great for comedy n stuff, but...come on now. instead of just shitting on the guy, at least be creative or something.

 

No kidding. I think that his map in Requiem was an excellent send-off and even his maps in Memento Mori 1 specifically (perhaps less so in Memento Mori 2) were rather interesting. I can just imagine him considering returning to Doom and seeing Mt Pain's video and going 'you know, nevermind.' While I highly doubt that will actually happen, Mt Pain's personal attacks on practically anyone who makes maps he finds personally irksome are getting really tiresome, to say the least. This could get into a larger conversation but I think a lot of that was already covered in the BTSX 2 episode and there doesn't seem to be a good reason to revisit it, namely that people's minds will never be changed.

[Andromeda]

3 hours ago, DJVCardMaster said:

If you have good memories of it, please don't replay it, because Requiem does not deserve a second playthrough, if you enjoyed it once, you won't enjoy it twice, if you did not enjoy it at first, that's all.

Interestingly I have the opposite experience, I find it's a wad that has aged surpisingly gracefully considering its troubled development.

[DJVCardMaster]

1 minute ago, Andromeda said:

Interestingly I have the opposite experience, I find it's a wad that has aged surpisingly gracefully considering its troubled development.

In a technical standpoint, yes, many of the Vanilla tricks used in Requiem still stand the test of time, mostly talking about Ikka's shenanigans like the double 3d-bridges, texturing and detailing, and other stuff. Gameplay-wise, not so much.

[Dynamo]

52 minutes ago, LadyMistDragon said:

Mt Pain's personal attacks on practically anyone who makes maps he finds personally irksome are getting really tiresome, to say the least.

This was indeed my main complaint at the end of the day, and I find it interesting that some people on this thread chose to instead focus on the technicalities of "pistol start vs non-pistol start" when that was a secondary aspect to this. Like you said though, it is what it is, and I enjoyed this episode as well as the BTSX E2 one, I felt like both had some good insight into the maps. Not the MM1 episode though, unfortunately.

[Kwisior]

1 hour ago, LadyMistDragon said:

This could get into a larger conversation but I think a lot of that was already covered in the BTSX 2 episode and there doesn't seem to be a good reason to revisit it, namely that people's minds will never be changed.

He attacked the BTSX team? Those maps are amazing!

[DreadWanderer]

33 minutes ago, LadyMistDragon said:

No kidding. I think that his map in Requiem was an excellent send-off and even his maps in Memento Mori 1 specifically (perhaps less so in Memento Mori 2) were rather interesting. I can just imagine him considering returning to Doom and seeing Mt Pain's video and going 'you know, nevermind.' While I highly doubt that will actually happen, Mt Pain's personal attacks on practically anyone who makes maps he finds personally irksome are getting really tiresome, to say the least. This could get into a larger conversation but I think a lot of that was already covered in the BTSX 2 episode and there doesn't seem to be a good reason to revisit it, namely that people's minds will never be changed.

Something I thought about is a fundamental asymmetry in review reactions, in the sense that you're more likely to see hot debates about bad scores than you would in reviews with good scores. This phenomenon isn't even limited to gaming, but can be found in almost any form of media. People feel queasy when it comes to voicing an opinion that slays a "sacred cow" for fear of nasty reactions, but the stakes are much, much lower if they praise a cultural artefact which a community considers to be unimportant and/or bad. This has nothing to do with Requiem specifically by the way, I'm talking generally. Call me crazy, but for example I found the last stretch of Scythe 2 to be positively infuriating, with Alm cranking up the difficulty in really unimaginative and artificial ways.

I agree that the Requiem episode contained direct and vigorous language, but I'm not exactly sure how this constitutes a personal attack on mappers. It's possible I missed something, but I didn't see it. If MtPain27 found patterns he doesn't like in the work of a mapper, then that negative impression will carry over. It's not ideal but that's what's happening, we're only human. Could the language have been more diplomatic? Sure, we're probably on the same page here. The questions around whether or not we can find objective standards or sets of criteria meant to please everyone (if those are the goals) remain complicated and maybe even impossible to answer.

[TakenStew22]

Yes! I've been waiting for this one!

[DrRock]

Looking at the video review, I'm a bit surprised how very few of these maps I remember from view. And my playthrough of his megawad wasn't that long ago, either. The ridiculous amount of very narrow corridors stuck in my mind, though. Finding out about the context behind this project through this video does explain the relative lack of bells and whistles on display for most of Reqiuem. Still not a bad playthrough when done continuously(that's how I play pretty much all mapsets anyway). Sometimes all one needs is to stomp something rather easy like this inbetween the more difficult modern works.

[Gibbitudinous]

I don't recall any personal attacks offhand, but I honestly agree with the assessment that the BTSX series is an example of map design that goes a bit too hard on the "look at what we can do with vanilla Doom" angle and winds up becoming easy to tire of despite (or one might even say because of) how high-quality and high-effort everything about it is. I feel similarly about wads like Ancient Aliens and Eviternity: absolutely gorgeous to behold but tiresome to play thru due the maps' sheer grandiosity.

[Firedust]

1 hour ago, Kwisior said:

He attacked the BTSX team?

He didn't attack anyone imo. Some people took it too personally. I found his criticisms fair even though I did enjoy the mapset a bit more than he did. It just made me look forward to his review of TPH (if he ever considers reviewing it, that is) even more, but might be a while until we get there, with all the classics he's yet to cover.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Firedust