The Dean of Doom series (companion thread)

[AD_79]

After watching the video, I decided to play Requiem through fully for the first time. I had gone through chunks of it before, typically stopping somewhere in the first third but never reaching beyond that, and... I had a very different experience. I mostly enjoyed it! There are some really interesting and fun ideas amongst the jank and strangeness that I think are worth experiencing at least once, with some moments getting genuine laughs out of me, and something that really surprised me was its relative brevity. My playthrough (which was admittedly at a fairly brisk pace, being the way I typically play) did not exceed four hours of in-game time, and the presence of multiple short maps spread throughout was very much appreciated. Yes, even the blink-and-you'll-miss-them Adam Windsor maps in the final third. I think if done today with more bite (or hell, less! Combat-free intermission maps are a valid idea too), the concept of a two-minute map in the last leg of a megawad/large project is something I would absolutely love to see more of. Please do this more, mappers!

 

I think something that contributed substantially to my enjoyment was the way I played it. UV (and especially UV pistol starting) seemed like it would potentially be unpleasant to some degree and maybe not the ideal way to play, so I opted for HMP continuous. This allowed me to carry over necessary heavy munitions and easily clear out excess meat, which made playing the maps more relaxing and fun. All I can say is that if you couldn't enjoy a set beforehand, give it a try with a different approach and mindset. There's a chance you may think differently of it!

[LadyMistDragon]

2 minutes ago, T-Rex said:

I think what many people defending the wads of the 90s were trying to get at here, which I believe is a good point, is that, if something of that time pales in comparison with something made today, wouldn't Doom fall into obscurity in favour of more advanced FPS games now? I mean, that's what many thought when Quake came out, which is the result of megawads like Requiem and The Talosian Incident, but thankfully, that isn't the case, and to this day, games like Doom, Duke Nukem 3D, Quake, and heck even Wolfenstein 3D are still played, and while Doom is capable of more mapping aesthetics, there are still a niche of players that don't mind playing wads that feel like Wolfenstein. Heck, even Tom Hall's maps, despite being spruced up by Sandy Petersen, still betrays the original author's design sensibilities, and they were among some of the best maps of the original Doom, with many being even better than the maps that were purely done by Sandy.

 

 

I don't want to derail this thread any more, but I will say Tom Hall, despite designing things essentially in flat rectangles mostly, made spaces that provided a good basis in at least 2 occasions (Refueling Base and Command Control) for a certain 'sandbox' method of gameplay. Although that's again a subjective point of view, and perhaps not directly relevant to the concept of aging discussed here (I believe Tom is looked at as having a rather flat aesthetic sense with his maps essentially improved by the works of the other mappers). Granted, I'm now entirely willing to defend Containment Area against all the naysayers, certainly with the impact that one had on future crates mazes, but y'know......I'll just leave it there and not pontifcate on subjectivity v objectivity.

[Scuba Steve]

What kind of moron wouldn't contextualize media? Historical context is foundational for good media analysis.

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

15 hours ago, Ravendesk said:

Otherwise playing with freelook would be universally preferable and only speedrunners would play without it. It's not nostalgia, the formula just works.

 

I think that the absence of vertical mouse aim is a great strength of doom, not a hindrance.

• A lot of shooter games have location based damage, and aiming very precisely is essential. Without vertical aim, doom gunplay is entirely focused on who you decide to shoot, not how well you can shoot them. It's strategy vs precision. Of course it's not black and white but the point remains. That every other fps does it doesn't mean it's the best solution. Even without location based damage. In doom, I don't need to worry too much about hitting a caco, if there's nobody in front, the autoaim will sort it out. If I don't need to look up to hit it, I can still keep track of what's going on below. 
• The enemies are sprites, and with free look, the illusion you're fighting actual enemies shatters. Maybe it's just me but seeing that they're all just cardboard cutouts really breaks my enjoyment of the game. 
• And the level design is also very particular when you're bound to only see what's in front of you. All the important and cool things need to be at certain height. That affects geometry, and shapes of the encounters within. 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Sneezy McGlassFace

[Akagi666]

20 hours ago, Andrea Rovenski said:

black and white films are so lame man, never understood why people make excuses like "oh the technology couldnt support color!" snoooozefest, amirite fellow zoomer doomers?
 

This is a terrible analogy because what I complained about was gameplay, not the aesthetics. A better comparison would be if black and white films were known for having poor acting or badly written stories. But they aren't and I like black and white films. Also lol at being a zoomer when I said most of the games I play are from the 90s. The problem is the level design itself, not the time period.

[Andrea Rovenski]

2 hours ago, Akagi666 said:

This is a terrible analogy because what I complained about was gameplay, not the aesthetics. A better comparison would be if black and white films were known for having poor acting or badly written stories. But they aren't and I like black and white films. Also lol at being a zoomer when I said most of the games I play are from the 90s. The problem is the level design itself, not the time period.

skill issue, my friend. good and bad gameplay doesnt really exist. (especially in the context of requiem which kicks ass and has excellent gameplay and awesome level design). 

 

Daily reminder for doomworld: just because you dont like it, doesnt mean its bad. Try getting better at the game, training your puzzle solving abilities (not every game holds your hand like modern ones) and giving it a go a few months or years down the line.

 

edit: to elaborate so I dont come across as too mean: old level design rules. puzzles, mazes, and intricate switch combos are awesome. It reminds me of traveling to a foreign area and not having a map (reminder, zoomers, phones and gps didnt exist back then! all ya had were MAPS (press tab, people). Getting lost in a map is a magical experience that makes me like it even more. Nowadays, I feel that all a large chunk of the newer players are all about content, content, CONTENT, so they play with extended hud on, do whacky challenges for the views, attempt to get 100% secrets without having to actually look for them as if they are secrets, and to look cool, and get mad when a map takes a little too long because then it might push their CONTENT behind a new deadline. getting lost doesnt make the game bad, it means you have a weak (probably because of smartphones if im going to be honest) internal navigation system. 

 

Saying art is bad because it "aged" and that historical context is irrelevant is even more asinine, as it devalues all art to be completely meaningless, because in 5000 years the standards would be different and therefore everything now would be irrelevant. Bad way of thinking IMO

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Andrea Rovenski

[Akagi666]

2 minutes ago, Andrea Rovenski said:

skill issue, my friend. good and bad gameplay doesnt really exist. (especially in the context of requiem which kicks ass and has excellent gameplay and awesome level design). 

 

Daily reminder for doomworld: just because you dont like it, doesnt mean its bad. Try getting better at the game, training your puzzle solving abilities (not every game holds your hand like modern ones) and giving it a go a few months or years down the line

 

Not sure why you keep resorting to personal attacks and strawmen. There is no difficulty issue, I just find these boring and tedious. Shotgunning Barons in a hallway isn't my idea of fun. 

[Andrea Rovenski]

1 minute ago, Akagi666 said:

Not sure why you keep resorting to personal attacks and strawmen. There is no difficulty issue, I just find these boring and tedious. Shotgunning Barons in a hallway isn't my idea of fun. 

operative word: my

 

dodging barons is fun as hell. I punch them with no berserk in small spaces just for fun. Fun is not an objective standard. Have a nice day :)

[Akagi666]

1 minute ago, Andrea Rovenski said:

operative word: my

 

dodging barons is fun as hell. I punch them with no berserk in small spaces just for fun. Fun is not an objective standard. Have a nice day :)

I don't think I ever claimed my opinion was objective? That would be a strange thing to say.

[fraggle]

22 hours ago, Womp the Cat said:

another example of this is the Mona Lisa, which isn't in the lourve because it's a "good" painting, but because it's the first example of perspective in art. 

Curious where on Earth you learned this nonsense.

[Andrea Rovenski]

1 minute ago, Akagi666 said:

I don't think I ever claimed my opinion was objective? That would be a strange thing to say.

 

2 hours ago, Akagi666 said:

A better comparison would be if black and white films were known for having poor acting or badly written stories

 

is this not an attempt at objectifying your point of view? Apologies if I misinterpreted it :)

Edited September 13, 2023 by Andrea Rovenski

[Akagi666]

Just now, Andrea Rovenski said:

 

 

is this not an attempt at objectifying your point of view? 

I don't think so. It's just a more honest comparison than the black and white thing. Also, I'm not sure why you keep going on about zoomers, but I'm in my 30s so yeah, weird strawman.

[Andrea Rovenski]

1 minute ago, Akagi666 said:

I don't think so. It's just a more honest comparison than the black and white thing. Also, I'm not sure why you keep going on about zoomers, but I'm in my 30s so yeah, weird strawman.

Zoomer is a mentality, not an age. I'm a 27 year old boomer, for example :)

[Akagi666]

1 minute ago, Andrea Rovenski said:

Zoomer is a mentality, not an age. I'm a 27 year old boomer, for example :)

Well, regardless I enjoy the action elements of Doom more than wandering around mazes. If the combat is repetitive or boring, I don't enjoy it. If people enjoy 90s stuff that's fine, but I find it incredibly tedious and dull.

[Andrea Rovenski]

6 minutes ago, Akagi666 said:

Well, regardless I enjoy the action elements of Doom more than wandering around mazes. If the combat is repetitive or boring, I don't enjoy it. If people enjoy 90s stuff that's fine, but I find it incredibly tedious and dull.

As someone who likes all the dooms (modern, slaughter, old, mazey, switch hunts, etc.) I find the quibbling between which style is "good" and "bad" to be silly. There's enough here for everyone to enjoy themselves and conversations where it turns into an Art War get me goin'. That said, the old stuff is foundational, and without it, none of us would be sitting here right now. 

[Michael Jensen]

Comparing gameplay of classic wads against modern only makes sense when judging maps with similar style, goals and focus. Maps built primarily around combat are naturally going to be ahead of maps which favor atmoshpere, exploration, worldbuilding, puzzles, etc..

Majority of 90's wads had a different balance of these elements, often emphasising primarily worldbuilding and atmosphere, creating unique places to explore, and modern maps with similar focus aren't that much different in terms of gameplay. Sure, there are some improvents, but apart from couple of unpopular tropes (excess of which in 90's wads is often overexaggerated anyway), there isn't much to improve.

Action in the classic wads is for the most part completely fine and when it isn't, it's easy to look past anyway, since it isn't the main focus. I don't mind if a map has a boring hallway fight, when I have an interesting places to explore.

Combat is only one element of level design. People like the classics, not because their gameplay is a non-stop kinetic action extravaganza experience of pure distilled skill or whatever, but because there are other things to enjoy in Doom, and these wads do them well. 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Michael Jensen

[Not Jabba]

As an example of how art is subjective, my feelings on Requiem have always been pretty middling, but I sure as hell enjoy playing it more than Plutonia, which I've never enjoyed in my entire life.

They're both good, though. My personal gut reactions don't determine what's worthwhile and what isn't.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Not Jabba

[Ravendesk]

2 hours ago, Andrea Rovenski said:

skill issue, my friend. good and bad gameplay doesnt really exist

 

So, in your view, all doom maps are exactly equal in how good their gameplay is?

[Andrea Rovenski]

1 minute ago, Ravendesk said:

So, in your view, all doom maps are exactly equal in how good their gameplay is?

i think art being subjective, yea. I love most things people commonly call bad :)

[Ravendesk]

5 minutes ago, Andrea Rovenski said:

i think art being subjective, yea. I love most things people commonly call bad :)

Well, that's not an answer. From your subjective point of view are all maps equal or some are still more enjoyable than others? What about movies, do you think they are all equally good?

[Andrea Rovenski]

15 minutes ago, Ravendesk said:

Well, that's not an answer. From your subjective point of view are all maps equal or some are still more enjoyable than others? What about movies, do you think they are all equally good?

i have my own biases but those are separate from reality. what i like and what others like arent the same and dont have to be. Of course I have my preferences 

[Plut]

2 hours ago, Andrea Rovenski said:

skill issue, my friend. good and bad gameplay doesnt really exist. (especially in the context of requiem which kicks ass and has excellent gameplay and awesome level design). 

And if I don't like a map because it is too easy or grindy (forces me to do easy repetitive tasks for a long time) - is that a skill issue too?

Also, the POV I'm gathering from your posts seems contradictory to me. You say that art is subjective - but if it is, shouldn't everyone have the right to express their opinions and provide explanations for them (instead of just shutting up and "gitting gud")? I'm personally interested in hearing different evaluations of art from people that want to get different things out of it. For example, I don't enjoy the overwhelming majority of slaughtermaps because I think they're unnecessarily repetitive and drawn out, but I understand that many people enjoy that kind of gameplay and that these kinds of maps still have artistic value. However, the problem with saying that "everything is subjective and everything is above criticism" is that then we cannot have any discussion about art at all.

[Andrea Rovenski]

10 minutes ago, Plut said:

And if I don't like a map because it is too easy or grindy (forces me to do easy repetitive tasks for a long time) - is that a skill issue too?

Also, the POV I'm gathering from your posts seems contradictory to me. You say that art is subjective - but if it is, shouldn't everyone have the right to express their opinions and provide explanations for them (instead of just shutting up and "gitting gud")? I'm personally interested in hearing different evaluations of art from people that want to get different things out of it. For example, I don't enjoy the overwhelming majority of slaughtermaps because I think they're unnecessarily repetitive and drawn out, but I understand that many people enjoy that kind of gameplay and that these kinds of maps still have artistic value. However, the problem with saying that "everything is subjective and everything is above criticism" is that then we cannot have any discussion about art at all.

yes, if you dont have the wherewithal to finish something, by definition it is a skill issue. Skill doesnt mean "ability to dodge projectiles" exclusively, but a confluence of factors like endurance, memory, recall, ability to quickly learn something (eg, layout). Not having the required skills to do something doesnt mean you're "worse" or anything, it just means either it wasnt designed for your sensibilities or you're not compatible at the moment, and thats a reason I shelve a lot of maps and come back years later and love them. We are never in a constant state and can always change our opinions with time. 

 

edit: to expand on this, look at role playing games and skill trees. Just because your lockpick skill isn't high enough to open the door doesnt mean you suck at the game, it just means you're better off sneaking passed the guards instead. I don't use the word skill in the way most people do, maybe, to me the word has a lot of depth. Another example, my skill at doing quick and snappy movements is higher in the morning than it is at the evening, so I'll play certain kinds of maps at different times of day based on my mood and reaction times. 

 

I don't think there's any contradictions. People making sweeping claims like "90s wads are bad" is an attempt at making their criticism objective. My point is that we all have unique sensibilities and interpretations and it's all subjective. I'm not sure where the disconnect happened or what isn't clear about it. Discussion is fine, that's why I popped in, to balance the discussion.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Andrea Rovenski

[Plut]

1 minute ago, Andrea Rovenski said:

Skill doesnt mean "ability to dodge projectiles" exclusively, but a confluence of factors like memory, recall, ability to quickly learn something (eg, layout).

Why is "not getting bored with doing the same stupid shit" not included?

2 minutes ago, Andrea Rovenski said:

Not having the required skills to do something doesnt mean you're "worse" or anything, it just means either it wasnt designed for your sensibilities or you're not compatible at the moment, and thats a reason I shelve a lot of maps and come back years later and love them.

Does everyone have to eventually "learn to love" everything and if they fail to do it - they're wrong somehow? Also, this sentence implies that every piece of art ever made is perfectly realized to satisfy the author's intentions, which is definitely not true. For example, lots of my old maps rely on lots of cheap pop-up / teleport traps not because that was the most perfect way to get the kind of experience I wanted, I just wanted to make fun hardcore gameplay and that was the best I could do at the moment (boring, repetitive and unfair though it was).

[Dynamo]

All right... I had expressed my own reservations regarding certain parts of the video, but I and others still tried to remain on topic, either discussing the video itself which is still praiseworthy and interesting, or at least discussing the WADs in question, but for several pages now the conversation has derailed in ways I didn't even think possible. As a result, I'd say it's time for a time-out, because there's been too many sweeping generalizations, too many off topic posts that are better discussed in a thread in Everything Else if at all, and also a few flamewars here and there for good measure. I really hope this will not become a trend every time a new episode is released, because there's much to discuss about the WADs or about the reviews, but this is simply not it.

[baja blast rd.]

Was a pleasant last few pages to not read lol.

 

 

Anyway, I was super excited about What Lies Beneath map01 and map04 (some of my favorite maps this year) so even though I don't normally make a big deal about agreement, I smiled when the praise was mirrored. Muumi and DFF are a couple of the best, most inspiring mappers.

[VoanHead]

I just hope this time around people will actually behave themselves.

[onetruepurple]

I'm always happy to see a Dean of Doom video and this time was no different.

 

I really hope to see MtPain writing the Cacowards one day*, he has good taste, and a spectacular way to express his opinions.

 

* - starting this year, please and thanks.

[SleepyVelvet]

Apparently there was a Machete (by A2Rob) episode.  Neat.

[Dheta]

6 minutes ago, onetruepurple said:

I'm always happy to see a Dean of Doom video and this time was no different.

 

I really hope to see MtPain writing the Cacowards one day*, he has good taste, and a spectacular way to express his opinions.

 

* - starting this year, please and thanks.

 

Well Looking through this thread I'm sure that wont cause any issues whatsoever xD