[Limit-removing] Torrential - Third Map, Feedback Appreciated

[Salmon]

This is an action-focused adventure map with straightforward but (hopefully) clear progression, six optional secrets, and varied combat scenarios in a mountain/temple setting.  The visuals are inspired by Plutonia, Ancient Aliens, and the 90s Tomb Raider games (but I'm still new so stuff is a little rough.)  I worked on learning several things here:  allowing fluid movement, creating a sense of adventure, and the very basics of outdoor design.

 

torrential.zip

 

Name:  Torrential (torrential.wad)

Replaces:  Map 01 of Doom 2

Format:  Doom 2 (for limit-removing ports)

Testing:  Crispy Doom, GZDoom (Doom Strict), PrBoom+ and GLBoom+ (cl 2)

Skill Levels:  All available, see Difficulty Selection if you want specifics

Requirements:  No jump or crouch, freelook allowed but never needed

Length:  Expect 18-22 minutes not including any deaths/saves/reloads

Tools:  Ultimate Doom Builder, Slade, WhackEd4, Doom Writer, Paint

Music:  "Hell Jungle" by stewboy

Textures:  Sky is SMLCLD01 by Mechadon, all others Doom 2

.deh:  Included for map name if your port needs it

 

Screenshots:

Spoiler

 

Difficulty Selection:

Spoiler

I'm still learning how to balance things so please tell me if your chosen difficulty was too hard or too easy.

 

UV:  Nothing harder than what you'd see in the first third of your average megawad.  Fights are generally short but often moderate in intensity.  Ammo and health are decently available.  There are cramped fights, there are open fights where you'll need to move, there are fights featuring varied enemy types, there are fights mainly featuring one enemy type--just me trying out different stuff to see what works and what doesn't.  Let me know!  You can cheese some of the encounters if you want but I tried to place items in such a way as to make that unnecessary (and sometimes counterproductive).

 

HMP:  In general, 20-30% downscaling of mobbed enemy numbers from UV with some monsters being replaced by ones from a lower tier.  Fights should be easier to manage.

 

HNTR/ITYTD:  Some downscaling of mobbed enemy numbers from HMP and a few additional replacements.  Fairly casual with the occasional mild challenge.  Geared toward newer players or people who want something more relaxing.

 

I had to learn some new stuff to make this--how to map in Doom 2 format, how to use WhackEd4, how to design a map with multiple ports in mind--so it's likely rough around the edges.  Please tell me if I messed something up in Slade!  I've been having a good time with all this and the feedback I've gotten here has been very helpful.  I apologize for the messiness of the outdoor areas but I gotta start learning somewhere.

 

Comments, videos, and demos are all greatly appreciated.  Thanks, y'all.

[Tango]

this looks so good, the tan brick + blue sky is such a great theme!

[Kuro_mahoh]

    

 

(I apologize for that)

 

In all seriousness, this looks nice! For some obvious reason, blue skies remind me of oblige. I'll give this a play, I like the looks and the design! :D

[Kuro_mahoh]

I have played the map!

 

I played it with smooth doom and on Hurt me plenty

I died 2 times (One was a revenant, the other was a mancubus)

Here are some of the screenshots.

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

(I'm a rookie reviewer but I'll try my hand at it)

 

So yeah, all I have to say was... THAT WAS ONE HOLY MOLEY OF A MAP AND GOOD FRICK I LOVE THE MIDI USED IN THAT MAP! Okay, that isn't all I have to say, honestly, the map was a bit more than what I have expected, and I'm happy about that! The map was difficulty wise, pretty hard in some spots. In fact, I pretty much seedran the end part out of compulsion lol (I won't complain about the difficulty). That map design is really good and I think the monster use was done well, It is challenging but fair because the fact that there were enough health packs and ammo for the player and I felt like making use of enemy infighting was a big key in this map, especially a certain area that I felt was made for the use of infighting and rockets. I liked the overall challenge and the gameplay was good too, I think speedrunners could find fun in this map or just people who like challenges.

 

Overall: 10/10 (In my opinion)

[Wilster_Wonkels]

I really enjoyed this map. It provided a good challenge, the layout was interconnected but still really easy to follow. I never got lost, and it was a nice looking level. I like darker levels, but it's always nice to see a clear blue sky too. I don't have much to say about this level, it was really good all around, the very opening of the map has perhaps a few too many hitscanners. It seems when I start it up I might take no damage or I might take 40, you just gotta hope they miss.

[SilverMiner]

Here's an FDA (a bit fucked up by a 3min pause, I have no idea why Doom records pause in a demo, so watch this in XDRE)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/w8wm0lgvw0k31kd/torrentialFDA.lmp?dl=1

[Soulless]

Good map @Salmon. Compared to your previous map, I would say its harder, but a couple of times felt a bit forced, like the caco-cloud or the hell-knight area. I found balance to be quite good, nothing frustrating in terms of ammo, the early secret berserker also helps.

Visually, it would have helped a bit on variety on the bricks, maybe some trimming here and there (not only support texture hehe) , and more light changes on the interiors, despite that I enjoyed it and explored every corner at the end for the uv-max 100%. Keep mapping buddy!

Edited September 25, 2021 by Soulless

[Salmon]

@Tango, thank you!  I'd been wanting to use that nice blue sky for a bit and was glad to make a map where it fit.

 

@Kuro_mahoh, I'm really glad you liked it!  The end in particular was meant to be escapable if you didn't want to deal with it, so I'm glad you figured that out.  I love that MIDI too, it's really an overlooked gem from the Ancient Aliens OST.  I feel like a lot of stewboy's music goes so well with open sky maps.

 

@Wilster_Wonkels, thank you!  I'm happy you had a good time.  I had been worried about the amount of hitscanners in the opening so I'm glad you mentioned it.  I probably could have stacked some armor pickups on the steps or something to reduce the possibility of taking too much damage.

 

@SilverMiner, thank you for the demo!  It was informative and fun to watch.  I appreciate you taking the time to point out that missing texture.

 

@Soulless, thanks!  Visually and in gameplay terms, this map was a trial run/learning experience for possible stuff in the future.  I agree about the texture variety--at one point I was using more colors but I felt like it hurt the theme, so I was struggling to find a balance.  And yeah, tbh in all my maps I've been leaning pretty hard on support textures out of laziness while I'm learning.  Probably time to start doing more!  I'm glad you pointed out not liking the caco swarm or the hell knight gauntlet, though.  Those fights were also me experimenting to see if people would like stuff like that so it's good to know you didn't.  Really appreciate your feedback!

[tourniquet]

Alrighty, this was a quite enjoyable ride, well done.

 

Stuff:

 

-ammo & health are like super generous to the point where you can play pretty careless, perhaps tone it down a bit at least on UV

-one Radsuit is more than enough for the YK/Caco fight, perhaps put some other fancy things into the nearby secret

same for the final fight in terms of Radsuit's

-missing texture in the crusher area, tried to make obvious in my demo

- the 2 arachnotron's in the final fight are stuck in PrBoom2.5.1.5

- more of a personal preference but i would replace the HK's on the pillars, in the pre final fight area, with Revenants

 

hope i didn't forget a thing

 

FDA torrential-FDA_TNq.zip

 

Edit: Yeah i forgot a thing, Interpic hasn't the correct size, should be 320x200

Edited November 27, 2020 by tourniquet

[Salmon]

@tourniquet, that was a very helpful demo, thank you for recording it.  It definitely let me see I was overly generous with health and ammo.  I'd never made a map with this sort of structure and had gotten some feedback about too few resources in the past, so I definitely went too far the other way this time.  I was going against my instincts adding so much, too.

 

You're right about the arachnotrons.  I think I never noticed because I typically used the plasma gun in that final area--it's easy to hit them that way and wake them up.

 

Glad you mentioned that about the interpic size.  I had been wondering why it was displaying incorrectly in certain ports.  For some reason I thought it should be 300x200.

 

I'll test out revenants on the pillars and see how it plays.

 

Really helpful comments, thank you!

[ElPadrecitoCholo]

Torrential

 

Ultra-Violence || GZDoom || Vanilla++

 

Status:

*Deaths: 0

*Saves: none

 

 

(Man, here I kind of got a texture error on one of these Crusher pillars.)

 

This map really is the best, it has many things that make it feel fresh from the common maps that you get to see around here in Doomworld, the truth is that I have a great time trying to survive all the enemies that were presented on the screen because Seriously, there were enough that at the beginning I was already worrying that the game would not turn out well, fortunately that was not the case, so it is time for me to write my opinions about everything I saw in this wad. First of all, in the aspect of the mapping, and the structure used, the buildings that you ended up building here were really good, as well as the beautiful celestial sky that is seen above, the vast majority of the structures were to my liking, even more that, among all the architecture that is based solely on mountain rock (or something similar in texture), is combined with Parkour areas, or palatforms, in which the Marine must try to overcome them without the possibility of jumping, which really gives the map a bit more personality, in addition, the use of the traps were also interesting, as is the case with the Crusher, in a general point, it feels like going from an archaeologist to look for treasures in this strange building that is full of demons. Another thing I will say is the correct use of the items that are given to us throughout the map, from the health and armor bonuses, to the use of the Berserk and the Soul Sphere, I will not lie, all the items were useful to me At the end of the day, they fulfill their purpose very well, and I am not complaining about it, so, visually and technically, everything turned out very well.

 

The enemies posed on the map were also a good choice, in some cases if they made the battles something extremely interesting, such as the area where the Cacodemons attack, or also the part where the Revenants and a Baron of Hell appear while the Crusher went down and killed almost no enemy, or even the last battle, where the Pinkys and the Barons appeared, thinking that you could no longer go down that path that climbs again to the platform where you could be sure of the beasts (until which I realized later that it was possible to download it using nothing but interaction, ugh), anyway, every battle here was good, not as boring or annoying as I thought, so I have to say you did a great job in your Wad, and in its progression.

 

[Nootrac4571]

Played on Hurt Me Plenty: 100% kills, 4/6 secrets.

 

I had a great time. It's a very handsome map with a great sense of progression as you slowly open it up. HMP wasn't especially difficult (I mean, I died twice, but both times were my own stupid fault for walking right into a Rev rocket or not noticing that my radsuit had run out during the cacoswarm,) but all the big fights had something interesting going on. Great use of Arch Viles, I thought - Fighting one in a fairly small room with a single pillar for cover while he kept resurrecting shotgunners right in my face was a particular highlight.

 

I'm struggling to think of anything significantly critical to say: Maybe the texture choices for elevators seemed a little random? The wood panel one that opens up below the yellow key door didn't look like it should be an elevator to me: I pressed it only because it was a weird out-of-place texture. And a few other elevators were so non-obvious to me that I thought they were secrets, and was slightly disappointed when they weren't.

 

That's nit-picking though - overall I had a lovely time. Really good map, well done.

[Biodegradable]

Excellent work, Mr Salmon. It's a fun map with a good meaty challenge without being unnecessarily punishing. Strong theming and texture work with varied and interesting combat scenarios. Lovely, lovely stuff, mate.

 

 

[Krenium]

I quite enjoyed this. I love the restrained texturing in this map. Sticking to browns and green sludge along with the occasional metal trim gives the map a refined feeling. The gameplay, as has been said already, is challenging but not over the top. This is in part due to generous resources. Something I noticed about this map is that when you get flushed out of a certain spot due to an ambush, you can often flee into unexplored territory and mount a defense there without making things too much worse. This is something I like to see, because it rewards your bravery. I think the map flows very nicely, even looping back on itself and throwing new encounters at you in old areas.

 

 

Edited November 28, 2020 by Krenium

[Aurelius]

Really enjoyable ride. Had some challenge here and there, but pretty breezy on UV. Ammo was perhaps way more plentiful than it needed to be on that difficulty as well, especially in the cell department. Didn't notice any technical issues, everything worked smoothly from start to finish.

 

Played this on Crispy Doom.

 

 

More specific comments:

 

- Always love me a good cacocloud.

- The blue door felt visually a bit off to me. The style of the map is very streamlined, which I am a big fan of, but I think the blue door could use at least some supports on either side. Most other doors in the map were always accompanied by some artificial structures, while this one was basically jutting out of a rock wall.

- The AV + shotgunner room was somewhat cheesable, because they couldn't follow you down the stairs. I feel it would work better if the monsters appeared once you press a switch way inside the room, but maybe that's just me.

- The final fight was a bit underwhelming on UV, with the bulk of the threat coming from side closets. The arachs were stuck on Crispy in their little balconies (I think that has been mentioned already). In my opinion there should be some sort of a horde (or spider mastermind) waiting for you on higher difficulties, as the pinkies and barons act mainly as "something to do while waiting."

 

Looking forward for more!

Edited November 28, 2020 by Aurelius

[antares031]

Here's my FDA, which is about 25 minutes long: anta_torrential_FDA.zip

 

Really enjoyable level, and it's frankly quite impressive for someone's third level. The usage of rock/metal textures and the overall design of layout are really well-designed, and I really appreciated some shortcuts, after you proceed the level. I want to point out that the flood of nukage makes this level even more memorable, in both environmental design and gameplay.

 

The difficulty was quite easy, even on UV. But there were some memorable setpieces, such as caco-clouds, revs with crushers, and HK turrets. Still, I think it's okay to cut a couple of ammo supplies in the late game. Also want to mention that it's not recommended to put major items on narrow staircases; Go to 14:00 of FDA, and you'll see what I mean.

 

Other than that, I'd like to echo the other's feedback comments, such as wrong resolution for INTERPIC and other graphic lumps, stuck arachnotron turrets in the final fight. In overall, it was pretty good, and really enjoyed the level from the start to the end.

[Salmon]

Just a general note on the health, ammo, and difficulty:  I definitely agree with everyone saying there's too many supplies.  I had gotten some feedback on my first two maps that there wasn't enough, so with this one I went overboard trying to make up for it.  I'm carefully watching your demos and videos to see when/where there's resources left over, though, so I should be able to balance it better in the future.  Thanks for the feedback!

 

@ElPadrecitoCholo, thanks for for the comments, I'm really glad you enjoyed it!  Seems like you really got the vibe I was going for and that makes me happy.  You're not the only one that the shortcut platform confused, though, so I think it was a poor texture choice on my part.

 

@Nootrac4571, thanks, glad you had a good time!  I agree about the elevator.  Trouble was, I didn't think any of the typical platform textures fit with the theme.  I've definitely gotten comments about using confusing textures for platforms in the past, though, so you aren't alone.

 

@Biodegradable, very enjoyable and helpful video, as always!  I really appreciate how dedicated you are to making videos for new mappers.  It's been a big help to me.

 

@Krenium, thanks for the video!  My first map got some comments that I was too random with my texturing, so I've been trying to stick to one theme since.  I'm glad someone appreciated it!  I like maps that reward aggression and try to build connections with that in mind--I've never seen the point of encouraging too much corner shooting.  You played it in the sort of way I was hoping people would, which is always nice to see.

 

@Aurelius, thank you for the video!  I'm in the midst of playing through Remnant right now (it's definitely a multiple sessions map for me) and having a great time, so I'm very pleased you enjoyed my map.  I agree about the blue door.  This was an unfortunate product of me not understanding the limitations of Doom 2 format when I started--I was hoping to make it a locked switch that lowered the wall, so honestly I fudged it when I learned I couldn't lock a switch.  You're right about the AV/shotgunner room.  It was a late addition that I didn't playtest enough.  Agreed about the final fight, too--the whole area was difficult for me regarding sight lines and it didn't turn out like I hoped.  I still learned a lot from making it, though.

 

@antares031, thanks for the demo!  I really loved your map in Eviternity and want to play through Struggle sometime soon, so it's nice to know you enjoyed my map.  Especially that you liked the overall design, that makes me happy.  I agree that the items on the stairs was poor placement.  That stair builder switch was a late addition--it used to be a lift with the items tucked against the wall next to it.  When I added the stairs, I never moved the items.  Very informative demo, glad you were able to find all the secrets!  Thanks for taking the time to give me feedback.

 

Whew!  I'm very pleased and surprised by the amount of comments I've gotten.  It's been incredibly helpful.  Thanks, y'all.

[BoxY]

I'll throw one more UV FDA on the pile: here (just over 20 minutes, plays back in -cl2). I may have had a couple of drinks before recording, so gameplay is more than a bit sloppy, but I got an exit. Getting blasted by the archvile into the soul sphere secret was a total accident, and I have no idea what the intended way to grab it is. :)

 

I had a great time with this map, I really haven't enjoyed banging my head against dense and difficult maps lately and this was exactly the style of map that I was looking for to wind down, fast, fluid and breezy without being brainless. I enjoyed almost every fight, except that the HK+rev arena in the large space was a bit too easy to just turn into a boring infight+circle affair, and the exit room was a little bit of a letdown since it's kind of just some immobile enemies placed on pillars that you have to clean up before progressing. Also, the red key can be completely covered by a hell knight corpse and become invisible, so I was briefly a bit confused when I picked it up without realising. Other than that I have zero real complaints about gameplay, and I'm excited to see what you make in the future.

[ElPadrecitoCholo]

1 hour ago, Salmon said:

thanks for for the comments, I'm really glad you enjoyed it!  Seems like you really got the vibe I was going for and that makes me happy.  You're not the only one that the shortcut platform confused, though, so I think it was a poor texture choice on my part.

 

@Salmon you're welcome partner, It will always be a pleasure to test your maps, which I really find very entertaining, and above all very dynamic when exploring and discovering secrets, haha

[TheNoob_Gamer]

It certainly felt like an adventure to me, and I had a good time. In my opinion however, UV felt a little bit lean to the easy part. The challenge is still there, but the abundance of shells (and bullets!) kind of nullify it. Perhaps you can try lowering shells/bullets when you get the yellow key onward and focus more on higher tier weapons?

Also, I think the final fight, the arachnotrons may stuck if I don't provoke them. You may want to consider modifying their sector size.

[baja blast rd.]

Jumping aboard the FDA/video train.

 

I really enjoyed this. It is a mix of chill and exciting, and all of the fights/areas had noticeably different concepts so nothing got repetitive. 

 

Some spots could be smoothed out more, but well done. 

[Salmon]

@BoxY, thanks for the demo.  Nice recovery from 2% health!  I guess you realized an archvile jump wasn't the intended way to get that soulsphere--it was pretty hilarious, though, since I never considered that happening.  I agree about the hk/rev area, it needed some more thought put into it.  Thanks for letting me know about the red key, too.  That spot could definitely be structured differently to prevent that.  Glad you had a good time!

 

@TheNoob_Gamer, I definitely agree on the difficulty.  My first two maps got some feedback about too few resources, so I went too far the other way this time.  Difficulty balance has been hard for me to figure out.  You're right about the aranchotrons, too--they used to be on large platforms but I moved them into those alcoves later and never noticed them being stuck.  Thanks for the feedback!

 

@rd., thank you for the video!  I'm pleased you had a good time.  It was nice to see someone play it fast, too--I was hoping more people would.  Sorry that you got trapped up there in the yellow key area when the hell knights and revenants came out below, it definitely wasn't intended.  I agree that the map could be smoothed out for sure.  Honestly, it was overly ambitious for someone at my current skill level but I also felt like I learned a lot from the attempt.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Salmon

[Degree23]

On 11/27/2020 at 10:05 PM, tourniquet said:

- more of a personal preference but i would replace the HK's on the pillars, in the pre final fight area, with Revenants

 

I absolutely would not replace them with Revenants. I hate tons of homing rockets flying at me from miles away! That section was the only slightly tedious part for me, having to individually snipe HKs with 3 rockets per platform.

 

Really enjoyable map overall. Given the huge door, and the PG you collect just before the end, I was expecting a Cyberdemon to be in the final room. Otherwise it was a great map.

[Salmon]

@Degree23, yeah, I tried putting revenants there and it didn't work for me.  It's more intense than what I was going for.  I agree about the hell knights--ultimately, I think the issue was that I liked the way the reveal look and got attached to it even though the fight gets boring.  Originally, that section was a light platforming fight with a cyberdemon turret and the final room wasn't really there.  The PG was sorta leftover from that.  Unfortunately, I couldn't really get the angles to work quite right with the cyberdemon and the platforms so I changed it.  It might have been a better fight if I could have gotten it balanced.  Glad you like the map!

[Clippy]

I'm late to the party 

 

If you watch this I got confused for ten minutes or so because the blue candle door bugged out on me and I'm not sure why 

 

 

[Salmon]

@Clippy, thanks for the video!  I was hoping you'd post one, I always like watching them.  Sorry about that door!  You found a softlock that (afaik) no one else encountered.  After you get the yellow key and hop down to the hell knight/revenant area, you're supposed to just be able to open that lion-faced door back into the temple after you lower the bars in front of it.  Trouble is, it's not a repeatable action to open the door.  I think you pressed use on the door linedef the first time you walked through (when the door wasn't down or visible, before you fight those two hell knights just inside, probably looking for secrets.)  This meant it actually didn't work when it needed to since the linedef was already used.  It was a design error on my part and not your fault at all.  Sorry, man.  I am glad you found it, though!  All the lock-ins were meant to be temporary and the map was supposed be 100% explorable by the end.

 

Agree about the hell knights being boring and the general easiness, too.  I'll try to make something a bit harder next time.  Glad you liked the atmosphere, that was my favorite thing about it, too.

[Roofi]

I played this map and indeed it was a nice stroll. The level has a particularly mystical character but the blue sky and the brown textures make us believe in a kind of a heaven.

 

The level is relatively easy, sometimes with more important fights with mid-tier monsters. In any case, the author never wants to punish the player even if the difficulty sometimes tends to rise a little. Ammunition, health items and large spaces allow to approach this level in different ways.

 

What I particularly liked is the use of the mid-tier monsters, namely the revenants and the HK. Some sequences with the latter make this level particularly unforgettable. The moment when a bunch of revenants get crushed is probably my favorite part, but I could also add the landscape made of pillars with HKs on them or the caco cloud to face in another rocky place.

 

This map does not contain any particular flaws. The only remark that I can make and that has already been made, is that the last fight seems a little weak compared to all the weapons and ammunition we get. I would have put a cyber or at least a Mastermind to add a little more chaos.

 

BUGS

 

- Linedefs 3704 and 3996 are overlapping (Never forget to do "Map Analysis" when you create a level)

- If you are fast enough, you can see the rising sector with the missing textures (HOMS) containing the arch-vile. I just recommand to add textures since it's useless to remove them. (Sector 690)

- Sorry to be rude , but those doortrack textures are ugly when people use them on a width of more than 16 pixels. (Linedef 4691 & 4694)

- Stuck arachnotrons at the end. I recommand to use square hitboxes on Doombuilder instead of circle ones. You can therefore know exactly how much space is needed for a monster.

 

 

My demo : Roofi_torrential_FDA.zip

[Salmon]

@Roofi, thanks for the comments and the FDA!  I wasn't expecting to get anymore on this one.  I agree with your criticisms and appreciate you pointing out the bugs.  Unfortunately, I posted this map without doing the sort of quality control that I should have and it ended up being too buggy and rough in places.  I figured people were done playing it, though, so I never updated the file.

 

Map Analysis is something I only learned about recently, so I didn't use it on this one.  I'm glad to know about it now, though.  I hope to make a map in this style again, so hopefully I know enough now to provide a more polished experience.

[Caleb13]

Edit: eh, nevermind, Roofi already got it.

Edited December 21, 2020 by Caleb13

[Suitepee]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/847869355

 

My playthrough starts at around 2:35:10. A fun map overall, just needed a tad more trickiness in some areas.