The Outcast Levels and Redemption Denied?

[Rudolph]

I just got the official release of Doom 64 on Steam and I am surprised to find out that while it includes an additional episode by Kaiser, it is an entirely original one created specifically for the occasion. Which is cool, but why were Kaiser's Outcast Levels and Redemption Denied not included as well? Will they be released later on as a free update?

[Faceman2000]

When asked about the subject earlier, Kaiser responded as follows (on Twitter, I believe).

Quote

Those maps weren't exactly great to begin with. They also don't really blend well with the style of the original level set either. Wasn't worth looking into at the time.

 

Edited November 28, 2020 by Faceman2000

[Rudolph]

I do not remember much of Redemption Denied, but I do remember enjoying The Outcast Levels much more than any of the vanilla episode maps, so it is disappointing that Kaiser would depreciate them like this. Oh well.

 

I have yet to play The Lost Levels, but I assume they must be really good if Kaiser thought they were worth releasing over his past work!

Edited November 28, 2020 by Rudolph

[Nevander]

If you want to play all of those levels again (sans the new monsters and items) they are all included in my TC Doom 64 Retribution. They are touched up and improved as well, especially Redemption Denied.

[Rudolph]

Thanks, but I am already aware of Retribution. ;)

 

Speaking of which, were you not working on an extra episode yourself, though? Is the project still going?

[Nevander]

3 hours ago, Rudolph said:

Speaking of which, were you not working on an extra episode yourself, though? Is the project still going?

I am, it's still in the works. No ETA on it yet.

[Rudolph]

Sweet! I presume The Lost Levels are not going to get ported to Retribution, though?

[ludicrous_peridot]

I have tried just recently Outcast and Redemption denied (with Retribution in DeltaTouch - wanted to play some console Doom, but not actual commercial game material, as I'm postponing that playthrough for later) and couldn't get past level 1 in either, giving up after 5 or 6 loads. While I admit my skills are far from great, it's interesting if the new official episode is on par in difficulty? Also how did these mission packs come about and were they done for Absolution or Ex?

[Devalaous]

7 hours ago, Rudolph said:

Sweet! I presume The Lost Levels are not going to get ported to Retribution, though?

 

Theres a general agreed upon rule that we don't port those levels to any projects for a good amount of time, out of respect for Kaiser and the Doom 64 dev team.

[Rudolph]

I figured as much. Nice to at least have confirmation.

 

6 hours ago, ludicrous_peridot said:

I have tried just recently Outcast and Redemption denied (with Retribution in DeltaTouch - wanted to play some console Doom, but not actual commercial game material, as I'm postponing that playthrough for later) and couldn't get past level 1 in either, giving up after 5 or 6 loads. While I admit my skills are far from great, it's interesting if the new official episode is on par in difficulty? Also how did these mission packs come about and were they done for Absolution or Ex?

I read they were made for the original Absolution total conversion.

[VGA]

Yes, I googled a bit and both these episodes were made for Doom 64 TC: Absolution in 2005. They are remastered in Retribution in some ways but I never played the originals.

[Rudolph]

I am also shocked to find out that the Absolution TC featured new monsters. I wonder why Kaiser created them and also what they looked like in action.

[Faceman2000]

8 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

I am also shocked to find out that the Absolution TC featured new monsters. I wonder why Kaiser created them and also what they looked like in action.

I mean, Absolution is still available for download if you want to play it for yourself. If not, there’s plenty of playthroughs on YouTube.

[Rudolph]

I suppose, but is it still playable with the current GZDoom build? I do not think the project has been worked on ever since Kaiser moved on Doom 64 EX.

[VGA]

17 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

I suppose, but is it still playable with the current GZDoom build? I do not think the project has been worked on ever since Kaiser moved on Doom 64 EX.

It was a fork of Doomsday, not a mod. You should try the latest version if you want to see it in action, otherwise check out YT vids.

[Faceman2000]

Yeah, you install it like it’s its own game and run it independent of anything else.

[Rudolph]

Do you remember when the new monsters show up?

[Faceman2000]

The Nightmare Caco and Demon show up around map six, I think. The others are exclusive to the Outcast levels, which I’ve never played.
 

They’re all just recolors of previously existing monsters though, nothing too fancy.

[VGA]

What is this a recolor of?

 

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Doom_64_TC#/media/File%3ANightmareSpectre.PNG

[Rudolph]

EDIT: Edited for clarity.

 

I was already hesitant to play an obsolete recreation of Doom 64, but now that you are telling me that the "new" monsters are just lazy recolors with tougher stats shoehorned in levels where they do not belong, I think I will just pass. Thanks for the information, though!

Edited December 2, 2020 by Rudolph

[Faceman2000]

4 hours ago, VGA said:

What is this a recolor of?

 

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Doom_64_TC#/media/File%3ANightmareSpectre.PNG

A pinky.

[Rudolph]

More of a Spectre, I would say. Which, granted, is already a recolor of the Pinky.

[Gez]

4 hours ago, Rudolph said:

the "new" monsters are just lazy recolors

It's appropriate in a way, Doom 64 after all did make use of lazy recolors to work around hardware limits -- barons and knights share the same sprites (just loading a different palette), same for pistol and shotgun zombies, and for imps and nightmare imps, and for demons and spectres. And PSX Doom did have nightmare spectres. Nightmare caco is new, though.

 

The outcast levels add the nightcrawler, an arachnotron that launches grenades; and the stalker, a lost soul with a homing missile attack ad teleportation powers. TBQH they don't seem especially interesting additions.

[Rudolph]

Of course. I do not mind the Nightmare Spectre; like you said, it was present in PSX Doom and come to think of it, I am surprised it was not included in Doom 64 to begin with. If you have to work around hardware limits, you might as well have it replace a redundant monster like the default Spectre.

[betabox]

On 11/30/2020 at 10:48 PM, Faceman2000 said:

They’re all just recolors of previously existing monsters though, nothing too fancy.

 

They're not just recolors. The Nightmare Spectre has about twice the health as Spectres (like in PSX PSX Doom), while the Nightmare Caco is translucent, has about twice as much health, is much faster and agile, fires bursts of 3 projectiles and is much more resistant to attacks.

 

Also yeah, as Gez said, the Outcast add-on adds some enemies. There's also a chaingunner.

Edited December 2, 2020 by betabox

[Faceman2000]

25 minutes ago, betabox said:

 

They're not just recolors. The Nightmare Spectre has about twice the health as Spectres (like in PSX PSX Doom), while the Nightmare Caco is translucent, has about twice as much health, is much faster and agile, fires bursts of 3 projectiles and is much more resistant to attacks.

 

Also yeah, as Gez said, the Outcast add-on adds some enemies. There's also a chaingunner.

That was in reference to the sprites. I thought that was clear but maybe I should’ve been more so.

[Rudolph]

Does its chaingunner at least have an unique sprite, i.e. not just a recolor?

[Faceman2000]

18 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Does its chaingunner at least have an unique sprite, i.e. not just a recolor?

Nope, just a recolor.

 

I understand those aren’t as exciting as new sprites, but when you think of it from simply a gameplay perspective recolored sprites really aren’t a big deal. What Kaiser and his team managed to put together was and is incredible. You shouldn’t discount the entire project just because they didn’t have the art development resources needed for new sprites.

[betabox]

I think so, too. It's an interesting experience, to say the least.

[Rudolph]

I did not mean to discount the entire project.

 

It is just that even overlooking the reused sprites does not make the new monsters' purpose and placement less questionable from a level design. Brutal Doom 64 tried something similar, this time with semi-original sprites, to equally very mixed results. 

 

It is clear that even Kaiser was not satisfied with those additions, as he did not bring them back in his later attempts to port Doom 64. Again, I am okay with modding in Nightmare Spectres to replace Spectres and Chaingunners to replace Zombiemen, especially on higher difficulty settings (i.e. Retribution's Doomslayer), but I am not sure monsters like the Nightmare Cacodemon and the Stalker fit Doom 64's slower pace and claustrophobic level design - especially if they are shoehorned in areas where they really do not belong.

 

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by Rudolph