I'm worried about the future of Doom.

[hailsataneveryday]

I'm a long-time lurker. I'm 28 years old, been playing Doom since I was 10, and have been lurking these forums since I was 13. So I've been here (albeit in the background) for more than half of my life at this point.

 

Anyways, I am just now getting around to playing Doom 2016. (I got it not long after it first came out, but the only computer capable of playing it died when I was a couple levels in. I also have Doom Eternal and pre-ordered its expansions, but I haven't played it yet.) And it's a good game. It's a major step up from Doom 3 (and I like Doom 3!), and seems to combine the best elements of classic Doom, the Quake series, and Doom 3.

 

Tonally, I have a few minor complaints. Now, if a major game development company has to own id, I'm glad it's Bethesda, as they make more modern games that I actually want to play than most. At the same time, I'm wary of some of the decisions made of the general direction of the series. Some of the in-game narration is cheesy beyond comprehension, when classic Doom didn't bother taking itself so goddamn seriously

 

 

and while, yeah, Doom 3 was a dead-serious game, the atmosphere was one of things nobody could really complain about, and the story was well-written, standard-issue horror fare that at least managed not to stick its too far up its own ass. Basically, I don't really want them turning Doom into The Elder Scrolls (even as much as I enjoy TES). Hearing a booming, distorted voice actor ham it up about "the lord of the fourth era of Hell" or whatever for the entirety of three levels that actually do bother to feature Hell doesn't sit as well with me, the second boss looked more like something I'd find at the end of an underground cave somewhere in Skyrim, and some of the in-game lore descriptions sound more like an edgy sci-fi D&D campaign than the Alien/Evil Dead roots of the series. And from the looks of it, Doom Eternal goes even further in this regard. I'm not saying the new Doom games aren't great, but I do hope they reboot the series now and again (which would fit into the game's allusions to multiple universes/timelines, right?) instead of trying to establish this smorgasbord of cheddar and mozzarella as hard canon long-term.

 

But, again, those are minor concerns. The gameplay is solid, and they really worked hard to make the game fun for those of us who have been there since the beginning. There are more pressing matters at hand. They did a good job emulating some of the things that made the classic game great, but while they're smothering the game in seasoning, they've really forgotten the meat.

 

One of the things that made Doom truly great was its openness. Every new iteration of the id Tech engine was open source, but they discontinued that a few engines ago. I'm aware that some companies are very deadset against even making older engines open source for some convoluted legal reasons, and I'm aware that this decision was a hard sell even for id when they started doing it, but it's done great things for the legacy of the series (and for id's profits). If it has a screen, it plays Doom, and am I supposed to believe that I will just never ever see a source port of the 2016 game?

 

The other thing is the modding community. I've played around with SnapMap, and it's cool, but, as far as I'm aware (?), beyond the inherent limitations of the feature, it's a very centralized and closed environment. There'll never be a site like this where people can share new SnapMap projects on the forums and upload them to DropBox for everyone to play. It feels a bit like an afterthought, because while... I don't know, it just doesn't feel like you own your SnapMap creations the way you own your classic Doom creations, and I don't think they understand how central that feeling is to inspiring creators. It takes most of the fun out of it.

 

And Doom Eternal has no level editor available at all. Unthinkable, this.

 

Long-term, they're going to be losing money with this direction, too. One of the reasons why Skyrim has remained on the list of the top 100 best-selling games on Steam since its release is because people still make some incredible content for it. That game itself is worth a romp through once or twice, but the reason a lot of us are still playing it and still buy it when new versions come out is because of the mods.

 

The entire reason why Doom is one of the most recognizable and well-loved games after all these is years is because the modding and mapping community just keeps going, and the game gets ported to anything that could run it. It's why people are still buying classic Doom after all these years, and why not as many people will be buying Doom 2016 in 25 years if no source or level editor is released, or if (at the very least) SnapMap is never decentralized and put into the hands of creators. Never mind Doom Eternal not having any level editor available at ALL.

 

Bethesda isn't looking at the future and the legacy of the series. It might seem cool now, but nobody is going to love Doom 2016 25 years from now the way we love classic Doom. We really need to get them to see the light in this regard.

 

We need to push for them to make Doom an open-source series again (even if we could convince them to release the source under GPL after waiting five years after the game released or something and the engine has no market value, this would be satisfactory), and even more important that we get the power to create new content back into our hands.

 

This is a little long-winded, but I only wrote 20 paragraphs about this because I actually care about this series. I'm passionate about it, and I know I'm not the only one. Does Bethesda want to keep people like us around for another 25 years, or don't they?

[Capellan]

5 minutes ago, hailsataneveryday said:

Does Bethesda want to keep people like us around for another 25 years, or don't they?

 

"People like us" are a vanishingly small part of the video game market, and do not enter into Bethesda's calculations at all.

 

Doom Eternal got great reviews and sold a buttload of copies.  That will enter into their calculations.

 

[Yandere_Doomer]

exactly, the modding community is what kept Doom alive all this time. if it was not for mods, Doom would have just been remembered as a great game, but people wouldnt be playing it as much as they do nowadays, and this forum might not even exist.  With Doom 2016, they are probably just trying to make something like the mods that people have been creating for all this time, but like all new things, they are short lived.[remember fidget spinners?]

Doom1 and 2 are a couple of my favorite games ever! like Spam[the canned meat], they are very versatile [especially 2]

you can go into incredible detail with GZDoom, you can create 3d models and import them in your wads!

sure, nobody profits from making these mods, but they are inevitably what is going to keep the franchise alive for even more years to come...

[Major Arlene]

I mean, people have been making custom maps for over 20 years for original doom. we ain't going anywhere.

[⇛Marnetmar⇛]

I'm not caffeinated so I'm in no position to provide a proper analysis of this post, but one thing that stuck out to me was that you seem to have a conception that Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal are taking themselves too seriously.

 

This is fundamentally wrong on every level. The mythology and story arc are intentionally hilariously absurd specifically because these games are trying to avoid taking themselves seriously.

Edited December 10, 2020 by Marn

[Bridgeburner56]

Doom is stronger than ever. The new releases bring fresh players to the classic community. The last 3-4 years have seen some of the finest custom Doom content ever made. The projects slated for release over the next 2-3 years will blow away anything that's ever been made before. 
And there is already custom fan made content for Doom Eternal and that is without any official modding tools. id have said several times that they are keen to release official modding support at some point in future. id will also keep adding content to Doom Eternal for years. Even just master levels of each map will keep people busy for ages. And now there's classic mode, imagine being able to pistol start every DE map. Epic

Doom, new or old, is doing just fine. 

[oCrapaCreeper]

Hugo Martin (nudoom game director) has said a few times now that they see the tone of 2016 as a Saturday Morning Cartoon. While the presentation seems serious and Doomguy's direct goals are serious, there is ridiculous stuff going on in the background as Doomguy is fixing yet another mess, such as demonic rituals and sacrifices, and they are treated as normal things in the UAC because Hell has corrupted them so much. "Get ready for the next soul harvest!" etc. The game is very self aware, and the devs are very nerdy to use old-cheesy action movies as their direct inspiration. The Doom Slayer himself seems aware he is in video game and couldn't give less of a shit of what Hayden says, he's just there to kill the demons.

 

It's not serious at all, and if you saw some of the stuff in Eternal, it only highlights this further (some people actually didn't like Eternal because they took the comic book tone and dialed it to 11). There is lore to the game at a deeper level, but it doesn't really stray far from the concept of "angry man commits genocide on demons" and that being pretty much what the story is based around. Even Daisy the rabbit is acknowledged as canon in the new games as part of his motive for the endless war against hell, this stuff isn't Skyrim level even if it's portrayed on a biblical scale in the story.

 

I think this noclip documentry highlights what id was thinking during this pretty well, how they struggled to find the tone of the game last-minute until they came up with its self-awareness. I'd reccemend watch them all, the previous one delved into the canceled Doom 4 and how that got scrapped to revive the serious

 

"They got pointy teeth, they might be vampires!"

"Oh maybe they're demons"

"Oh maybe it's a cult"

How about as soon as you walk in, it's playing on a fucking mega phone?

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

And with Eternal, you have to keep in mind they were less about hiding the goofy tone. The colors, the UI, the intentionally cheesy writing, etc are all self aware to the fact it's a video game and everything is bent-over to serve the gameplay.

Edited December 10, 2020 by oCrapaCreeper

[Gez]

17 minutes ago, hailsataneveryday said:

and some of the in-game lore descriptions sound more like an edgy sci-fi D&D campaign than the Alien/Evil Dead roots of the series.

It's funny because an edgy D&D campaign (not even a sci-fi one) was the root of the demonic invasion theme. The id boys were playing D&D and their campaign ended in a "demons invade and kill everyone, game over". So when they had the idea to make an Alien-brand shooter and then came back to their sense that they should do their own IP instead of getting shackled to franchise licenses, the decision to replace aliens with demons was obvious.

 

Likewise, having demon leaders hamming it up with lines like "noooooo, don't like their pathetic mortal foil our evil plans of domination" or whatever it is they said was part of the plan from Tom Hall's design documents. Thankfully, technical limitations and all-around cheapness such as not wanting to include voice acting or scripted cutscenes when a simple text screen and a still image or two could do, saved us from this.

[nrofl]

I tend to agree. People stay here for a long time.

 

And even to an extent staying in a games community for 4-5 years is still good for that community. Of what ive seen people tend to bounce around a lot in terms of a new game coming out and being a part of that community. Meanwhile people over here (While most likely interested in other games as well) have stayed here for decades. Doesnt matter if their a casual player or a long time mapper or whatever else.

 

26 minutes ago, hailsataneveryday said:

but nobody is going to love Doom 2016 25 years from now the way we love classic Doom. We really need to get them to see the light in this regard.

 

I personally dont think the games need to be as fondly remembered or loved as the first, neither do I think that they'll ever reach that level of nostalgia or whatever other good feeling the first two might generate. Probably because Doom was revolutionary for that time. Its easy for people to remember due to it being far different than the other games of that time. As much as I dont like to admit it, Doom 2016 and Eternal arent as impactful as Doom or Doom2. And not alot of other games are ever going to be.

[leodoom85]

Someone said that Doom is eternal. 

There's no need to worry. Doom was, is and will be strong for a long time.

[ketmar]

Doom is here for almost three decades, and there is no sign of declining. those New Shiny Dooms will come and go, but The True One will stay. we even cheated Bethesda to do a free PR for us, by making younger players aware of The True Classics. new blood is coming, new maps are coming, this year cacowards are stunning, and the community is only growing. there is no end in sight. don't worry, relax, and kill some demons.

Edited December 11, 2020 by ketmar

[seed]

Doom is a big fat waste.

 

Not really, it lasted for three decades, new games are coming out, new blood is joining the community, and even id has made their own remaster of classic Doom. No, Doom is here to stay.

[xvertigox]

She'll be right m8

[AtticTelephone]

Doom is not doing great, well, at least New Doom isn't. They sell, but they aren't very good, and attract a certain type of fan, thankfully the kind that swarm the lands of r/Doom, so it doesn't matter. New Doom is temporary, but Classic Doom is forever. I'm not worried about the future of Doom, since all the new ones can easily be ignored.

[Gifty]

Doom is a good game. Fight me, Doom fans!

[ChopBlock223]

The new Doom games can crash and burn and it won't make the community for classic Doom go anywhere.

[hailsataneveryday]

2 hours ago, Capellan said:

 

"People like us" are a vanishingly small part of the video game market, and do not enter into Bethesda's calculations at all.

 

Doom Eternal got great reviews and sold a buttload of copies.  That will enter into their calculations.

 

 

That's pretty much my point.

 

If Doom Eternal is anything like Doom 2016, I'm going to love it, but my main concern is that, again, the openness that makes the games endure is disappearing. And there is no reason to take a defeatist attitude on this.

 

My entire post was filled with speculation on id and Bethesda's profits not because I, personally, am worried about how much money these games will make for some company in the future, but because profits are their main consideration, and they have every reason to listen to autistic rants like these and make the games more open source and moddable. These things don't enter into their calculations because they're not thinking about it, because they're used to doing this a certain way. If we get into their faces about it, they might come around. We might see source port releases and level editors and the like once they realize how much they mean both to the community and to their wallets. Their profits in the short term are good because they made a good game, but if they want this game to keep selling 20 or 30 years from now, they'll let us turn it into a great game...

 

We need to get them to re-examine their calucations. They aren't idiots. They care about the future, I think.

 

2 hours ago, Deathclaw886 said:

exactly, the modding community is what kept Doom alive all this time. if it was not for mods, Doom would have just been remembered as a great game, but people wouldnt be playing it as much as they do nowadays, and this forum might not even exist.  With Doom 2016, they are probably just trying to make something like the mods that people have been creating for all this time, but like all new things, they are short lived.[remember fidget spinners?]

Doom1 and 2 are a couple of my favorite games ever! like Spam[the canned meat], they are very versatile [especially 2]

you can go into incredible detail with GZDoom, you can create 3d models and import them in your wads!

sure, nobody profits from making these mods, but they are inevitably what is going to keep the franchise alive for even more years to come...

 

You get it. My point is, I want to see that sort of community springing up around the new Doom games, too.

 

2 hours ago, Marn said:

I'm not caffeinated so I'm in no position to provide a proper analysis of this post, but one thing that stuck out to me was that you seem to have a conception that Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal are taking themselves too seriously.

 

This is fundamentally wrong on every level. The mythology and story arc are intentionally hilariously absurd specifically because these games are trying to avoid taking themselves seriously.

 

I've been trying to quit caffeine. I cheated today.

 

I worded this wrong. I get that the game itself doesn't take itself seriously, and I like the game, but the lore does, and you know what? I don't like the lore (there, I fucking said it). It's not even so much what they did with Doom 2016 itself as much as the fact that I don't want to be playing Doom Eternal IV: Legend of the Crystal Blade in 2027 where Doomguy is trying to find the titular item to foil a civil war in Hell because the dark elves started an insurrection against Methuzallikar, the Demon God of the 18th Era, even if all that is just relegated to subtext. I just want to shoot demons, and I want them to remain scary and not have their mystique spoiled by too much fruity stuff spoiling the atmosphere in the background. I'm not saying we're already there, but it's clearly a potential future.

 

The expansion for DE being titled The Elder Gods does not exactly inspire me with confidence in this regard. I just hope they don't take this football and keep running with it, and I hope the lore gets a reboot every so often so that we can see different takes on this.

 

Also, I went ahead and peeked at the bosses on Doomwiki, and I hate when game developers think that ending a game filled with zombies and demons with a fight against a shiny, sci-fi looking, relatively normal-looking weirdo is just the greatest idea in the world. It sucked when House of the Dead 2 did it, and I'm worried that boss fight will be just as anticlimactic.

 

I'm sure I'll come back and bitch more about this when I've finished the games (currently on the Necropolis boss fight).

 

tl;dr: I'm just sort of hoping that they know when enough is enough, and I hope they don't ultimately make the enemies more fantastic than menacing.

 

2 hours ago, Bridgeburner56 said:

Doom is stronger than ever. The new releases bring fresh players to the classic community. The last 3-4 years have seen some of the finest custom Doom content ever made. The projects slated for release over the next 2-3 years will blow away anything that's ever been made before. 
And there is already custom fan made content for Doom Eternal and that is without any official modding tools. id have said several times that they are keen to release official modding support at some point in future. id will also keep adding content to Doom Eternal for years. Even just master levels of each map will keep people busy for ages. And now there's classic mode, imagine being able to pistol start every DE map. Epic

Doom, new or old, is doing just fine. 

 

Oh, yes, I have kept up.

 

New doom isn't doing as well, though, as another commenter put it. I just want to see the new games succeed as much as the older ones. I love Doom. I fucking love all of it.

 

2 hours ago, oCrapaCreeper said:

but it doesn't really stray far from the concept of "angry man commits genocide on demons" and that being pretty much what the story is based around.

 

Let us hope it never does. You can read my above rant in this comment for my opinion on the lore, but I do get that the game itself is not too serious. The lore, on the other hand... I dunno. I feel like some of it doesn't quite fit, and it's not that much of an issue if they just have the self-awareness to reboot it every few games.

 

1 hour ago, nue said:

I tend to agree. People stay here for a long time.

 

And even to an extent staying in a games community for 4-5 years is still good for that community. Of what ive seen people tend to bounce around a lot in terms of a new game coming out and being a part of that community. Meanwhile people over here (While most likely interested in other games as well) have stayed here for decades. Doesnt matter if their a casual player or a long time mapper or whatever else.

 

 

I personally dont think the games need to be as fondly remembered or loved as the first, neither do I think that they'll ever reach that level of nostalgia or whatever other good feeling the first two might generate. Probably because Doom was revolutionary for that time. Its easy for people to remember due to it being far different than the other games of that time. As much as I dont like to admit it, Doom 2016 and Eternal arent as impactful as Doom or Doom2. And not alot of other games are ever going to be.

 

I dunno. I think we could make it happen if we threw enough of a collective temper tantrum. I want to make levels for the new games. Someday I want to play a source port of Doom 2016 on my Galaxy Tab 3,287-Z with support for tactile VR and five-dimensional bridges. And they'd have nothing to lose by humoring us on this. They'd make more money than they already are. Everybody wins.

 

1 hour ago, leodoom85 said:

Someone said that Doom is eternal. 

There's no need to worry. Doom was, is and will be strong for a long time.

 

Agreed. I just think these games are not going to become what classic Doom became, which is even some of what they're aiming for.

 

1 hour ago, ketmar said:

Doom is here for almost three decades, and there is no sign of declining. those New Shiny Dooms will come and go, but The True One will stay. we even cheated Bethesda to do a free PR for us, by making younger players aware of The True Classics. new blood is coming, new maps are coming, this year cacowards are stunning, and the community is only growing. there is no end in sight. don't worry, relax, and kill some demons.

 

To clarify, I'm under no delusion that the Doom community is somehow shrinking and that its very existence is in jeopardy. I just think that these newer games are going to be forgotten without the potential to become what the classic games became.

 

Better stuff comes out every month than anything that's ever been done on SnapMap. Why does it have to be that way? Can't we try to make the future just a little brighter?

 

1 hour ago, seed said:

people with anime profile pics don't deserve rights

 

I never said or implied anything close to "Doom is a big fat waste."

 

52 minutes ago, xvertigox said:

She'll be right m8

 

I don't know what this is supposed to mean, but I found this band recently and they're great. I don't usually like country.

 

35 minutes ago, AtticTelephone said:

Doom is not doing great, well, at least New Doom isn't. They sell, but they aren't very good, and attract a certain type of fan, thankfully the kind that swarm the lands of r/Doom, so it doesn't matter. New Doom is temporary, but Classic Doom is forever. I'm not worried about the future of Doom, since all the new ones can easily be ignored.

 

I think they're good (not as good as the classics, but good), but agree 100% on the rest of it.

 

That's the problem, though. The new Dooms aren't attracting creative types. They can indeed be easily ignored. That's not the future I want for Doom. And I think Bethesda is trying really hard to get this right. And all they have to do is put the power in the hands of the community, and we'll take that extra step for them. Some really cool things could be done with these newer games. The potential is being wasted.

 

11 minutes ago, Gifty said:

Doom is a good game. Fight me, Doom fans!

 

It is a good game. But it won't ever be a legendary game if things continue the way they are.

 

I know I keep harping on Skyrim, but it's a prime example. It's a good game, but not a great one, on its own. It's cheesy, formulaic, unevenly written, and half-broken, but the mod community turned it into the experience of a lifetime. The fact that I may never see the newer Doom games remixed and expanded upon years later is really sad.

 

3 minutes ago, ChopBlock223 said:

The new Doom games can crash and burn and it won't make the community for classic Doom go anywhere.

 

I doubt they'll crash and burn, but they might not ever blossom into a legendary stepping stone in the history of gaming. They'll just be another momentary blip across the screens of modern gamers. And those four letters deserve better than that.

[Bridgeburner56]

18 minutes ago, hailsataneveryday said:

New doom isn't doing as well, though, as another commenter put it. I just want to see the new games succeed as much as the older ones. I love Doom. I fucking love all of it.

Huge sales, best single player fps to come out since FEAR, vast majority of people who play it love it, brings huge new numbers to all things Doom. You are in the vanishingly small minority of people who think new Doom is doing badly. We don't need another classic Doom, we already have it. Fresh and exciting ideas only revitalise the community and drive things forward. Lamenting for """the good old days""" is pointless and leads to unproductive wallowing.

Count me out of your pessimistic world view, I'm going to enjoy myself

[PeterMoro]

2020 has seen so many new, first-time mappers. Some of these "my first map"s have been pretty good quality compared to 10 or 20 years ago. That's really cool. 

It's astounding the quality of mods these days. All the new mods and maps keeps me interested, probably will for decades. I even still play Oblige from time to time. 

Life has slowed me down in 2020 and i don't design maps as often as i used to but i get time to put in about 1 hour a week. I'm working on a 8 map wad that could replace Doom's Episode 1. It's fun and challenging. As long as i can build Doom maps, I'll be sticking around. I love it. 

I drop by Doomworld almost everyday to see what other Doomers are up to. Some of the work other people do is really inspiring. 

So you are stuck with me for another ten years at least : p

 

[hailsataneveryday]

20 minutes ago, Bridgeburner56 said:

Huge sales, best single player fps to come out since FEAR, vast majority of people who play it love it, brings huge new numbers to all things Doom. You are in the vanishingly small minority of people who think new Doom is doing badly. We don't need another classic Doom, we already have it. Fresh and exciting ideas only revitalise the community and drive things forward. Lamenting for """the good old days""" is pointless and leads to unproductive wallowing.

Count me out of your pessimistic world view, I'm going to enjoy myself

 

And you can count me out of your lack of reading comprehension, dude.

 

I can't say I fault anyone for not wanting to read my 800-page rants, but I feel like it's not too much to ask to have some general idea what they say if you're going to go ahead and generalize my entire worldview based on them.

 

I don't really disagree with anything you said. I'm not sure how many times I said that I love the new games, but I'm sure it was enough times to wonder if repeating my concerns again to you here will actually guarantee that they'll be read, but I'll try:

 

My primary complaints are not about the new games at all. They're about the lack of openness that id used to attempt to have with their games and which made those games great. You think it's a classic game now, but it won't have the legacy that the older games have unless things change. By "change", I mean putting creative power in the hands of the community.

 

On the contrary, I am optimistic that such change can happen.

 

17 minutes ago, PeterMoro said:

2020 has seen so many new, first-time mappers. Some of these "my first map"s have been pretty good quality compared to 10 or 20 years ago. That's really cool. 

It's astounding the quality of mods these days. All the new mods and maps keeps me interested, probably will for decades. I even still play Oblige from time to time. 

Life has slowed me down in 2020 and i don't design maps as often as i used to but i get time to put in about 1 hour a week. I'm working on a 8 map wad that could replace Doom's Episode 1. It's fun and challenging. As long as i can build Doom maps, I'll be sticking around. I love it. 

I drop by Doomworld almost everyday to see what other Doomers are up to. Some of the work other people do is really inspiring. 

So you are stuck with me for another ten years at least : p

 

 

Glad to hear it. I'll check it out.

 

I'll upload a WAD or two at some point, myself.

Edited December 11, 2020 by hailsataneveryday

[leodoom85]

20 minutes ago, hailsataneveryday said:

My primary complaints are not about the new games at all. They're about the lack of openness that id used to attempt to have with their games and which made those games great. You think it's a classic game now, but it won't have the legacy that the older games have unless things change. By "change", I mean putting creative power in the hands of the community.

 

On the contrary, I am optimistic that such change can happen.

We are fortunate that a game released 27 years ago is still alive and kicking now. And be fortunate that this old game and the community was the catalyst to create 2 insane new iterations of Doom, so that old and new generations can enjoy the games. 

 

"Legacy" depends of people. Nothing more, nothing less.

[DJVCardMaster]

Not even an award for Best Action Game, sad, fuck The Game Rigged Awards.

Doom will always be Eternal.

[AtticTelephone]

I agree with almost everything @hailsataneveryday says, and I hope that Doom 6 is actually great, and is just more Doomy and less Doomy Eternally. I hope that there's references to the Plutonia Experiment especially, my highest expectation is Doom 6 being Plutonia 3, but Bethesda is not very good at that stuff, so I'll have to lower my expectations.

[hailsataneveryday]

17 minutes ago, leodoom85 said:

We are fortunate that a game released 27 years ago is still alive and kicking now. And be fortunate that this old game and the community was the catalyst to create 2 insane new iterations of Doom, so that old and new generations can enjoy the games. 

 

"Legacy" depends of people. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

People? Well, yeah, that's what I keep ranting about. Point me to the Rise of the Triad forum where I'm going to get 10 or 20 people responding to me within the hour.

 

Fortune has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's because Doom invented a winning formula, and Quake and many subsequent games stuck with it. This community exists because of the new content that's continually being produced, and it wouldn't exist if the older games didn't have the things I want for the newer games, too.

 

I want to see source ports of Doom 2016 or Eternal at some point, and I definitely want to be able to make levels for them, even if source release never happens. I'm having a hard time understanding why some people are actually arguing with me about this.

 

Maybe I should have put my admittedly minor ("minor", as in, "I know none of these complaints are very serious and they do not seriously affect my enjoyment of the game") criticisms of the newer games in a different thread, because they're apparently throwing some people off. It is, in fact, entirely possible for me to like and enjoy something and still criticize minor aspects of it, and I'm not hating on the new games, for god's sake. I want to see more of them - that's what this thread is about.

 

I'm on your side, guys.

 

 

Edited December 11, 2020 by hailsataneveryday

[RonnieJamesDiner]

As excited as I am at the prospect of mod support for the new Doom games (and confident that the community will produce some incredible stuff with it), Doom 3 is still a pretty good indication of what will happen. Enthusiastic mappers/modders will be instantly reminded that this is not a game from the 90's anymore - the amount of time, effort and skill (even just to learn the tools) required to make anything will likely take the wind right out of most peoples' sails.

 

The modding community for classic Doom thrives off of the fact that the process is so streamlined and easy, compared to modern games - not just because the tools are available. Doom 3 and Quake have editors, but they didn't result in modding scenes that are as prolific as classic Doom. There is still some jaw-dropping content being made for them (like Phobos and Arcane Dimensions, respectively), but when it comes down to brushes/models versus linedefs/sprites, the vast majority of people who create maps or mods as a hobby will stick to the latter. I say "most people", not everyone.

 

And that's my point. I'm sure the community would make a lot of interesting stuff with official mod support for Eternal, but it will never be like classic Doom, in that sense. It's nice to put "creative power" into the hands of the community, but as soon as the mapping process loses that "linedef" simplicity, most people just don't have the time or patience to learn a more complex development pipeline. 2016 and Eternal could've both shipped with fully loaded map editors - classic Doom would've still wiped the floor with them, in terms of community made maps. And it always will.

 

[DNSKILL5]

I liked Doom 3 and there was a lot more people who did not, and a lot more people like the new games with a lot less people not liking them. Basically: if you don’t like the current games, chances are there will be a Doom game in the near future that you will like more. It’s not the end of the world. It’s not the end of Doom. Doom is unlike many game series out there. It is big enough by name alone to never be forgotten. We will all be dead one day, but there will be people to take our place and who knows how far into the future that would be, who may even make us all look pea brained in comparison with what they make of the Doom engine, as many have said even with everything people know now, not all of the possibilities have been discovered. 

Edited December 11, 2020 by Gerolf

[ketmar]

2 hours ago, hailsataneveryday said:

I just think that these newer games are going to be forgotten without the potential to become what the classic games became.

 

Better stuff comes out every month than anything that's ever been done on SnapMap. Why does it have to be that way? Can't we try to make the future just a little brighter?

no. there is a HUGE difference between mapping for classic doom, and for any modern 3D game. simply speaking, you cannot create a good map for modern 3D game single-handedly (or it will take years of hard work). SnapMap is prolly the only way for people to produce something that is not shit. it doesn't matter if we'll have engine sources and tools or not, the "entry fee" is unbearable anyway.

 

Doom3 had tools released, and the source code is here now. do we see alot of Doom3 maps and mods around? how much even "minizodes" are there? and mapping for Doom3 is MUCH easier than for any modern game.

 

original Doom managed to hit almost the ideal point between ease of mapping and playability. due to it's low-res graphics, you can draw a simple layout and it will still look good. try this with modern games, and you'll get a piece of shit nobody will want to look at. this is The Big Secret of Doom, and that's why it is still alive to this day. and no modern game can beat it here. so even if Bethesda will release everything and more for new dooms, they will never get a significant modding scene. so why should they even bother?

Edited December 11, 2020 by ketmar

[Biodegradable]

I think what OP needs to realise is that the continuing success of Classic Doom and the strength of its community is kind of like capturing lightning in a bottle. A great deal of Classic Doom's refusal to die is based in the accessibility and simplicity of its technology compared to modern games. Sure, our wonderful techno-wizards have been able to make incredibly impressive sourceports and mods, but the tools are still way more user-friendly than anything made today, especially the nuDoom games. Even if id Software released the source codes for them, which I honestly doubt, the prospect of a budding side of the community creating new content for them with the same level of dedication might be a lot to ask as the bar for entry would be undoubtedly higher. It's no secret that a lot of first-time Classic Doom mappers past and present start off poking and prodding at level editors at a young age because the tech is a lot easier, simple and streamlined. It's why Doomworld is always brimming with new members, a lot of them in their mid-to-late teens eager to show off their "myfirstwad.wad" to this very day.  As both Ronnie and Ketmar have highlighted, the learning curve for heavily modding the nuDoom games would be a lot more daunting and would likely discourage a lot of people from tinkering with it.

 

Naturally, if nuDoom did become open-source, I very much bet there will be some crazy cats who will dig in, pull it apart and then stick it back together in new and creative ways. The problem lies in the accessibility and that bar of entry. I'm not entirely sure that Classic Doom's longevity can be replicated in the same way, though I'd be the first to willingly eat my own words should I be proven wrong in the unlikely event the nuDoom games are made open-source.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Biodegradable

[OniriA]

It feels silly to see a thread like this right after having the cacowards and next to it. 

 

On a serious note, nothing lasts forever. But (Classic) Doom will most likely outlast your lifetime and the lifetimes of all the people who currently visit this forum and those who play the game now. 

 

Its digital data, so unless the internet ceases to exist and electricity dissapears aswell, it isn't going anywhere.

 

Next to that, Doom has left a bigger digital imprint with decades of user created content and thousands of articles written about it. Even if the current generation would be wiped out, the children of future generations would still discover the game somehow due the vastness of the content thats out there in the digital space. 

 

When it comes to the newer Dooms however, while  bringing Doom to a newer generation they're also basically just big budget marketing for the classic titles. 

In the end, the newer games will always have a shorter lifespan then the old titles and this is due to the reasons wich RonjieJames explained in detail aswell.

 

In fact, this is applicable to all modern games nowadays, they are mostly intense blockbuster experiences that are as intense, drama-filled and shortlived in their lifespans as Blue giant stars, but Doom is like that Red dwarf star wich has the longest lifespan of all Stars, and wich doesn't shine the brightest. It doesn't have to, it just shines calmly and continuingly in the background. At its own pace.

 

And as Tolkien once said, 'Not all that glitters is gold, nor does all gold glitter.

 

 

Edited December 11, 2020 by OniriA

[KeaganDunn]

9 hours ago, Major Arlene said:

I mean, people have been making custom maps for over 20 years for original doom. we ain't going anywhere.

 

People are introducing others like me to the Doom series, and making maps themselves. We're still getting "first maps" around here, so I know this community ain't going away anytime soon.