Doom 3 16 years later

[CivilianM91]

Doom 3 was my introduction to the series so it’ll always hold a rosy little nostalgic place in my heart- however, even back in 2004 at the tender age of 13 I knew once I had beaten it- I was sort of done. There wasn’t much in replay value for me so I just started exploring the classic stuff and, even though I really wanted to give ROE a shot, I never wound up doing it.

 

Fast forward to 2016 and I notice they go for 5.99 on Steam- naturally I bought both, but despite my honest efforts I just couldn’t get into them. My PC at the time was sort of trash and I found myself immediately annoyed at the flashlight mechanic. I just couldn’t put up with it for longer than I already had despite my love for the general vibe of the game. 
 

Enter Black Friday 2020 and I notice how it’s going for 2.99 on my XONE. Fuck it, I’m still on a kick since Eternal anyway I’ll finally give it another go. I didn’t mind it was a port of the BFG edition, I didn’t want to deal with the flashlight mechanic. The game never felt tense or scary to me with it anyway.

 

So my thoughts after all this time, FINALLY revisiting the entry that got me into this legendary series to begin with?

 

This game is sloggy.

 

It has it’s highlights, sure. I dig the plasma rifle and the atmosphere is top notch- the last third of the game really ramps up with some fun, intense stuff once you’re fully loaded out and the hell levels are gorgeous. As a whole I feel the presentation has largely aged gracefully too (especially compared to some of its contemporaries). 
 

But playing on veteran, dealing with the samey villain attack patterns and almost complete lack of level variety gets sooooo tedious at times. I caught myself zoning out a few times during gameplay right before the first trip to hell. And the weapons? Eh... not terrible, I guess? But underwhelming and borderline puny feeling. With the exception of a few firearms I rarely felt satisfied with a kill. 
 

Okay at this point nostalgia glasses are firmly crushed and I’m ready to see if ROE is an improvement- and actually, for the most part- I feel it was. I should point out I turned the difficulty down to marine for this because I just didn’t have it in me to really have my patience tested with what looked to me to be MORE and MORE of the same level design. This has to be my biggest problem with this expansion. There is just zero variety there, and it’s felt more after 3. I guess thematically it works but it was a chore to play through. The weapon set feels more well rounded- maybe it’s just because it finally has a shotgun that I like or that the artifact and grabber can make for some fun set pieces (as long as you don’t overuse- if you cheese this game at any point all semblance of fun drops). The combat is largely better thanks to more encounters and more enemy variety, and the boss encounters are better as well. The brisk length was a welcome change and kept the pace easier to digest.

 

I dunno. I have mixed feelings towards this game. After playing for a total of 14 hrs I think I’ve had my D3 fill. I doubt I’ll make it to the Lost Missions. 
 

I’m honestly glad this version of Doom didn’t completely catch on and things played out the way they did for the franchise, but to me it’s sort of the Zelda II of the series. I’m glad it’s there, I’ll always acknowledge it, but fuck it’s tough to play.

[hybridial]

11 hours ago, CivilianM91 said:

This game is sloggy.

 

 

I do find this a bit of a commonality with many FPSes made in the 00s. I'm not going to rant, don't worry guys :P

 

But there is this thing, this feeling about how game design went for a while, they really designed things around the novelty of the first time playing them, without really considering how the design holds up to revisiting. The more intricate and open levels of the more old school games in the genre hold up well to just play, to pick up and put them on and just have short blasts of fun. This is what makes them more timeless. 

[CivilianM91]

4 hours ago, hybridial said:

 

 

I do find this a bit of a commonality with many FPSes made in the 00s. I'm not going to rant, don't worry guys :P

 

But there is this thing, this feeling about how game design went for a while, they really designed things around the novelty of the first time playing them, without really considering how the design holds up to revisiting. The more intricate and open levels of the more old school games in the genre hold up well to just play, to pick up and put them on and just have short blasts of fun. This is what makes them more timeless. 

You’re honestly not wrong. With the exception of Halo and some Valve stuff I rarely revisit that era- never really pegged that as the reasoning before but you’re dead on.

[Avoozl]

Well I don't agree, I've found a fair few 2001-4 FPS games still enjoyable.

Edited December 22, 2020 by Avoozl

[CivilianM91]

6 hours ago, Avoozl said:

Well I don't agree, I've found a fair few 2001-4 FPS games still enjoyable.

What were some of the highlights for you? I forgot to mention I was big (and still am) on UT. 

[Azuris]

I pretty like the original Doom 3, with some HD Mods it looks pretty amazing nowadays and has a really intense Atmosphere.

 

I'm playing right now through the BFG Edition on my PS3 because i wanted to play something in 3D :)

The BFG Version is pretty easy and kills much of the Atmosphere.

 

Stylewise, you can pretty recognize the Game from many.

It feels like Doom evolved into this deep dark Setting.

 

From Doom to Doom 2 and Doom 64 it went darker and darker and ended up with Doom 3.

Doom 2016 went many steps back but had still some of its DNA.

Doom Eternal now seems to be more like the first one, with the Action in the Spotlight.

 

Combat wise Doom 3 was pretty intense, not so much Enemies but it forced you to overcome your Fear to be effective.

The Shotgun really shines when you run toward your Enemy and shoot him instead of heading back.

The hole Facility is really great done with all that moving Stuff and the (until today) outstanding Lightning Effects.

Hell has some really great Moments, those Boulders coming from nowhere bulding up a Way, great!

 

Love the Game :)

 

I also prefer it over what i've seen in the other Posts from Doom 4.

 

 

[Apprentice]

It's been a while since I last played Doom 3 (and I do think it was the BFG edition) but from what I can remember from its initial release, I like it though it had some flaws in its design. If I compare it though with its direct competitor of the day (Half-Life 2), I do still believe that Doom 3 is a better game. Where Half-Life 2 was more of a 'tech demo', Doom 3 was more of a complete game as a whole though certain design choices remain ... questionable. The engine looks pretty solid and nice things can be made within the idtech 4 engine. Quake IV and the original Prey uses it also and the latter had some interesting design features . . .

[CivilianM91]

7 hours ago, Apprentice said:

It's been a while since I last played Doom 3 (and I do think it was the BFG edition) but from what I can remember from its initial release, I like it though it had some flaws in its design. If I compare it though with its direct competitor of the day (Half-Life 2), I do still believe that Doom 3 is a better game. Where Half-Life 2 was more of a 'tech demo', Doom 3 was more of a complete game as a whole though certain design choices remain ... questionable. The engine looks pretty solid and nice things can be made within the idtech 4 engine. Quake IV and the original Prey uses it also and the latter had some interesting design features . . .

I’ve honestly never played Half-Life. I get burnt out on shooters fast so I’m very picky about which ones I play.

 

I briefly played Prey back in the day and enjoyed it- I’d love to revisit it sometime.

 

I feel like if D3 had the gunplay of Q4 it would’ve been a much better experience for me 

[The_Hyphenator]

My big gripe with Doom 3 is that it's so unfocused that it doesn't really do any one thing well, leading to what I find to be a very mediocre experience.

It tries to appeal to fans of the original two games and their flow, but the maps are too tight and cramped to allow for the fast-paced combat the series is known for. The weapons aren't very satisfying to use (and the sound design for them is awful; the shotgun in particular sounds like someone popping a paper bag when you fire it), constantly switching between the flashlight and a gun slows combat to a crawl, and the whole experience feels more akin to the corridor shooters so popular in the early 00's than Doom.

Except it doesn't really appeal to fans of those kinds of shooters very well either, because the game doesn't reward strategy. The enemies almost exclusively teleport in (people analyzing the game's code determined long ago that the ONLY enemies that load with the map are the possessed Marines), meaning that most of the strategies that you would employ in a game like, say, Half-Life are completely pointless in Doom 3. There's no point in clearing the corners of a room when you enter, because nobody will be there until you step into the center of a room and activate a teleport script. Likewise, sound strategies like using grenades or rockets to clear a room and disorient then moving in to mop up are equally pointless. And it ignores some of the most valuable innovations of shooters that came before it, like making grenades an always-on item with a dedicated key.

And some of you might say that those design choices are intentional to drive the horror aspect of the game, but frankly, Doom 3 is not a good horror game. It does have nice atmosphere, I have to give it that. But the flashlight is a form of artificial difficulty that only serves to make the player feel less powerful by deliberately hindering them, which is always a poor choice in horror. And while there is some disturbing imagery here and there, most of the "horror" takes the form of jump-scares. The teleporting enemies. The constant use of monster closets. Despite what people who made FNAF the new industry standard for horror might believe, jump-scares are not horror. They're a cheap device used to invoke a reflexive reaction that everyone has. Horror makes you feel dread. It makes you feel tension. It's not about constantly screaming in the audience's ear, it's about invoking a genuine emotion. People who make good horror games understand this. The folks who made Doom 3, not so much.

And do I even need to go into what a terrible idea it was to try and do a serious take on the story for Doom? The entire point of the plot in Doom and Doom 2 is that it's a stupid, silly, over-the-top reason to give an excuse for the experience of the game. John Carmack himself famously said that story in a video game is expected, but not important, so I have no idea why id thought it was a good idea to put that narrative front and center and attempt to flesh it out. It's a bad, paper-thin story and when Doom 3 tries to tell it seriously, it really shows. And don't even get me started on the ridiculous plotholes surrounding the "calling in reinforcements" subplot and how Betruger actively tries to stop you from calling in a ship that he wants to arrive so the demons can get off of Mars, or how he tries to stop you from fixing the generator that's threatening to go critical and kill everyone in the complex, including him. The smartest decision Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal made was making it clear that the story was silly and nobody cared about it, including the protagonist.

I could go on, but I think I've made my case. Yes, Doom 3 was very technically advanced for the time. Yes, the engine was impressive, and was used to power some awesome games (which are better than Doom 3). But Doom 3 itself is a confused, mediocre mess. It's not a good classic or contemporary FPS, it's not a good horror game, and it's not a good story-driven experience. It's just underwhelming in pretty much every respect.

[CivilianM91]

Your entire reply was dead on but I feel this in particular needs to be said more-

 

Quote

And some of you might say that those design choices are intentional to drive the horror aspect of the game, but frankly, Doom 3 is not a good horror game. It does have nice atmosphere, I have to give it that. But the flashlight is a form of artificial difficulty that only serves to make the player feel less powerful by deliberately hindering them, which is always a poor choice in horror. And while there is some disturbing imagery here and there, most of the "horror" takes the form of jump-scares. The teleporting enemies. The constant use of monster closets. Despite what people who made FNAF the new industry standard for horror might believe, jump-scares are not horror. They're a cheap device used to invoke a reflexive reaction that everyone has. Horror makes you feel dread. It makes you feel tension. It's not about constantly screaming in the audience's ear, it's about invoking a genuine emotion. People who make good horror games understand this. The folks who made Doom 3, not so much.

I really believe the more recent defense for these aspects of the game are just a knee-jerk reaction to the new ones embracing the silly. Before 2016 no one was really defending these elements of the game.

Edited December 26, 2020 by CivilianM91

[The_Hyphenator]

46 minutes ago, CivilianM91 said:

Your entire reply was dead on but I feel this in particular needs to be said more-

 

I really believe the more recent defense for these aspects of the game are just a knee-jerk reaction to the new ones embracing the silly. Before 2016 no one was really defending these elements of the game.

I dunno, I saw plenty of people defending the monster closets and flashlight mechanics back when BFG Edition came out. I can't tell you how many people I saw deriding the shoulder flashlight (which still sucks because it's so immersion-breaking that the battery life is so low) and the duct tape mods because it wasn't the way the game was meant to be played and praising the design around the flashlight in vanilla. And I couldn't even venture a guess at all the "but Doom 1 and 2 had monster closets!" posts I saw around that time.

[CivilianM91]

7 minutes ago, The_Hyphenator said:

I dunno, I saw plenty of people defending the monster closets and flashlight mechanics back when BFG Edition came out. I can't tell you how many people I saw deriding the shoulder flashlight (which still sucks because it's so immersion-breaking that the battery life is so low) and the duct tape mods because it wasn't the way the game was meant to be played and praising the design around the flashlight in vanilla. And I couldn't even venture a guess at all the "but Doom 1 and 2 had monster closets!" posts I saw around that time.

Just told on myself for never following this series online until recently I guess, lol. I just remember mostly popular critics and the like bashing those mechanics so I was a little taken aback to see so many fans that defend it on here

[The_Hyphenator]

1 minute ago, CivilianM91 said:

Just told on myself for never following this series online until recently I guess, lol. I just remember mostly popular critics and the like bashing those mechanics so I was a little taken aback to see so many fans that defend it on here

Which is hilarious because at the time of release, critics couldn't praise it enough. When BFG came out, I did a little googling to see if I could find bad reviews of Doom 3 at the time of its release. I literally only found 2, one of which was written by a Christian gaming site that only bashed it for all the demonic and hell themes.

I know hindsight is 20/20, but those monster closets weren't any less annoying at the time of the game's release. Seems like critics have only started to give the game an honest look now that they're no longer being dazzled by the new tech.

[Mr. Freeze]

Doom 3 is worth playing for the Hell levels alone...absolute best in the entire series. It really reinforced the first game's "one man against literal, biblical Hell" theme before Doomguy turned into a superhero. 

 

 

[CivilianM91]

1 hour ago, Mr. Freeze said:

Doom 3 is worth playing for the Hell levels alone...absolute best in the entire series. It really reinforced the first game's "one man against literal, biblical Hell" theme before Doomguy turned into a superhero. 

 

 

Eh, I like the super hero vibes tbh. I never took any of it seriously and found myself cringing a bit when they tried to.

 

Those hell levels are fantastic though. Shame there wasn’t more to them in the game.

[The_Hyphenator]

2 hours ago, Mr. Freeze said:

Doom 3 is worth playing for the Hell levels alone...absolute best in the entire series. It really reinforced the first game's "one man against literal, biblical Hell" theme before Doomguy turned into a superhero. 

 

 

When was Doomguy not a superhero? Dude runs around at the cruising speed of your average sports car, carrying hundreds of pounds of heavy ordinance that he never needs to reload and singlehandedly kills thousands of demons in a single game.

If you're looking for a realistic protagonist, Doom is not the series for you.

[CBM]

I wish doom 3 had as much modding going on as doom 2... it would have provided a much needed doom base tech update.... there is a limit to how far even gzdoom can go

 

Oddly enough the source was released 9 years ago in 2011

 

https://github.com/id-Software/DOOM-3

 

Is there some doom 3 community that Im not aware of? Some earthshattering doom 3 mods I don't know about?

Edited December 27, 2020 by CBM

[CivilianM91]

24 minutes ago, CBM said:

I wish doom 3 had as much modding going on as doom 2... it would have provided a much needed doom base tech update.... there is a limit to how far even gzdoom can go

 

Oddly enough the source was released 9 years ago in 2011

 

https://github.com/id-Software/DOOM-3

 

Is there some doom 3 community that Im not aware of? Some earthshattering doom 3 mods I don't know about?

I don’t think so. It’s been said to death here but I think creating all new assets and the like for a game like D3 is just too much for the causal modder. As much as I’d love to see proper built in editors in the new Dooms as well it’s just realistic to assume it’s too time consuming and too steep a learning curve for most for it to really catch on. 
 

Still, it’d be nice if there was. It’d be so dope

downloading wad-like packs for Doom 3. Definitely breath some life into it.

Edited December 27, 2020 by CivilianM91

[The_Hyphenator]

17 minutes ago, CBM said:

I wish doom 3 had as much modding going on as doom 2... it would have provided a much needed doom base tech update.... there is a limit to how far even gzdoom can go

 

Oddly enough the source was released 9 years ago in 2011

 

https://github.com/id-Software/DOOM-3

 

Is there some doom 3 community that Im not aware of? Some earthshattering doom 3 mods I don't know about?

 

Looking around, there are some mods out there, but a lot of it is pretty minor tweaking, though there are a few TC type mods that actually look pretty impressive.

As for why Doom 3 never became fodder for the modding community the way the first two did, I imagine timing had something to do with it. Doom's source code was released just 4 years after the original game came out. Doom and Doom 2 were still some of the biggest games on the market at the time, so there was a much bigger active player base to take that ball and run with it. Doom 3, on the other hand, had its source code released 8 years after it launched. That's twice as long as the time between launch and release for Doom, nearly a decade. I imagine most people had moved on to other games by then, and I know a lot of people had moved on to modding Half-Life 2 and the Source engine around that time, which is much more versatile from what I understand.

[CBM]

23 minutes ago, The_Hyphenator said:

 

Looking around, there are some mods out there, but a lot of it is pretty minor tweaking, though there are a few TC type mods that actually look pretty impressive.

As for why Doom 3 never became fodder for the modding community the way the first two did, I imagine timing had something to do with it. Doom's source code was released just 4 years after the original game came out. Doom and Doom 2 were still some of the biggest games on the market at the time, so there was a much bigger active player base to take that ball and run with it. Doom 3, on the other hand, had its source code released 8 years after it launched. That's twice as long as the time between launch and release for Doom, nearly a decade. I imagine most people had moved on to other games by then, and I know a lot of people had moved on to modding Half-Life 2 and the Source engine around that time, which is much more versatile from what I understand.

its a damn shame

 

guess they could still make it happen for doom 2016, if they release the doom 2016 sourcecode ASAP

 

 

[CBM]

2 hours ago, CivilianM91 said:

I don’t think so. It’s been said to death here but I think creating all new assets and the like for a game like D3 is just too much for the causal modder. As much as I’d love to see proper built in editors in the new Dooms as well it’s just realistic to assume it’s too time consuming and too steep a learning curve for most for it to really catch on. 
 

Still, it’d be nice if there was. It’d be so dope

downloading wad-like packs for Doom 3. Definitely breath some life into it.

id say that IF the tools were there and they were easy enough to use then it wouldnt be so difficult

 

Imagine a graphical enemy editor with preview that could import any old quake 3 player model and then let you choose what enemy to replace plus what enemy to clone initial stats from and then let you customize everything before writing the appropiate mod data automatically

 

I am working on such a tool for gzdoom currently

 

it will have all the doom 2 default enemy decorate code and stats on hand

 

it will show the quake 3 player 3d model and its animations

 

it will guessimate a configuration automagically that can then be changed if needed

 

quake 3 models have a default range for each animation type

 

and they also have animation info files

 

this combined will allow for a tight animation control

 

 

...

 

 

did find a doom 3 sourceport

 

https://dhewm3.org/

Edited December 27, 2020 by CBM

[snapshot]

I like Doom 3 a bit, fun to re-visit once every other year. The game's pace increased slowly thoughout the campaign. Story is not great, but the setting is awesome (the opening, delta, hell and ending levels were great) ROE was also pretty good, only issue I have with the game is how repetitive it becomes after a while of playing, you're mostly just running through the same looking corridors doing mostly the same thing over and over and over, more variety could have helped.

 

The community made mods are fun to mess around with too, there's some pretty good level packs if you want to see what someone who's good enough with id tech 4 modding can do with the game, like Doom 3 Phobos. I wouldn't recommend using dhewm3 unless you don't want to play community made mods and levels though, it doesn't support all of them.

Edited December 27, 2020 by sluggard

[hybridial]

I think it's frustrating because I like the idea of Doom more as a horror game. I'm into playing Doom 1 and 2 more with the PSX soundtrack nowadays. And Doom 3 is probably the most deliberate attempt to make a horror based Doom game.

 

It also fucks it up on every single level, I think it's a complete failure as a horror game and its not a good FPS on top. The majority of their decisions just did not work. It's very, very boring.

 

Not a lot of successful horror FPS games with emphasis on story really, Undying maybe?  Otherwise Quake got it far more right.

Edited December 27, 2020 by hybridial

[The_Hyphenator]

26 minutes ago, hybridial said:

I think it's frustrating because I like the idea of Doom more as a horror game. I'm into playing Doom 1 and 2 more with the PSX soundtrack nowadays. And Doom 3 is probably the most deliberate attempt to make a horror based Doom game.

 

It also fucks it up on every single level, I think it's a complete failure as a horror game and its not a good FPS on top. The majority of their decisions just did not work. It's very, very boring.

 

Not a lot of successful horror FPS games with emphasis on story really, Undying maybe?  Otherwise Quake got it far more right.

Yeah, Undying was great. I actually have the Covenant family portrait as my wallpaper right now. Pity it never got the sequel they teased at the end.

But I think you're right in that there just aren't many horror FPS that nail both the horror and FPS aspects. It is a difficult balancing act to pull off, since most FPS games bank on the player being a walking death engine, which makes it difficult to do horror well. Hobbling the player in some way isn't a satisfactory solution, as Doom 3 illustrates. You have to have developers who can really make the player feel a sense of dread despite being powerful, which requires really smart art design, sound design and a scenario writer who knows how to set up scares without just making loud noises at the player. A lot of people tout F.E.A.R. as a good horror shooter, but I feel like that one also relies too much on jump-scares to be truly effective (though it is at least a solid FPS even if the horror isn't very good).

[ReaperAA]

22 hours ago, CivilianM91 said:

I feel like if D3 had the gunplay of Q4 it would’ve been a much better experience for me 

 

Yeah. Gunplay in Quake 4 is much better than Doom 3. No stupid screen shake when talking damage and weapons feel generally more solid in Quake 4.

 

Honestly Quake 4 in my eyes is a slightly better Doom 3. A bit less atmospheric but better in gameplay department.

[CivilianM91]

I agree wholeheartedly. Q4 is probably my least favorite of the series but it’s still a competent shooter with some really fun set pieces,

[ReaperAA]

2 hours ago, CivilianM91 said:

Q4 is probably my least favorite of the series. 

 

Agreed here as well. Among the Quake games, Quake 4 is the least impressive Quake game, but atleast the gunplay is still more interesting than Doom 3's