old games modded still better

[icecoldduke]

19 minutes ago, chemo said:

And this is what an average city level is supposed to look like in DOOM Eternal:

 

The image you found of Doom Eternal, isn't gameplay by the way, that's a concept art piece(or gameplay screen touched up heavily in photoshop). Here's a true in game screenshot. 

 

This scene isn't very complex, it just has quite a lot of set dressing, also keep in mind the set dressing in Doom Eternal doesn't have to be perfect either, your running so fast through the game, as long as something looks decent, the player doesn't pay attention to the environment anyway. The maze needs to provide a fun environment. 

 

Quote

You think that all the impressive maps and mods made for the older games today are of similar quality to those in the 90's?

Your looking too much into the aesthetics. Take away the visuals and just focus on the gameplay. Why don't you believe the community could use idstudio to make a compelling and fun maze for Doom Eternal? 

Edited December 28, 2020 by icecoldduke

[jazzmaster9]

2 hours ago, icecoldduke said:

You guys keep saying its apples and oranges, but have failed to explain why. It's two products from the same franchise, its perfectly reasonable to compare the original doom and doom 2016 and eternal. 

its two products with completely different gameplay styles and Design. the only common thread between them is the game and the General Genre.

So not really, they can't really be Directly comparable. 

 

21 minutes ago, chemo said:

Clearly, one looks way more complex than the other, and I don't see how it would be less of a time-consuming process to create a map of such fidelity.

People Who never done mods, won't completely understand how time consuming it actually is even for Classic Doom.

Take something like Doom 3 Phobos, and how long thats been in Development, and thats Doom 3. or Even Elementalism for GZDoom

Edited December 28, 2020 by jazzmaster9

[icecoldduke]

2 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

its two products with completely different gameplay styles and Design. the only common thread between them is the game and the General Genre.

So not really, they can't really be Directly comparable. 

 

It's two games in the same franchise; the latest game choose to reimagine the brand, and some people don't like it. I don't get why your trying to distract from that paticular point, by saying comparing the two games is apples and oranges. Some people just don't like the reimagining of the brand, and under that pretext, it's just fine to compare the two games. 

Edited December 28, 2020 by icecoldduke

[jazzmaster9]

2 minutes ago, icecoldduke said:

It's two games in the same franchise; the latest game choose to reimagine the brand, and some people don't like it. I don't get why your trying to distract from that paticular point, by saying comparing the two games is apples and oranges. Some people just don't like the reimagining of the brand. 

I mean its okay to not like the gameplay style. but The fact of the matter is, Classic Doom and the New Doom Games are very distinct and different from each other Directly Compare

 

Kinda like how silly it would be to compare Classic Doom to Doom 3, same franchise YES, but two different style of Game.

I don't like Doom 3 but i won't say Classic Doom is better since they have two different play styles, im just not a fan of the slow pace.

Edited December 28, 2020 by jazzmaster9

[icecoldduke]

Just now, jazzmaster9 said:

I don't like Doom 3 but i won't say Classic Doom is better since they have two different play styles.

Doom has been going through a identity crisis since the dos release. It's perfectly alright to say: I don't like Doom 3, I prefer classic doom instead. You don't like that iteration of the rebrand. Just like it's perfectly alright for me to say: I prefer Doom classic over the Eternal doom rebrand. 

[jazzmaster9]

Just now, icecoldduke said:

Doom has been going through a identity crisis since the dos release. It's perfectly alright to say: I don't like Doom 3, I prefer classic doom instead. You don't like that iteration of the rebrand. Just like it's perfectly alright for me to say: I prefer Doom classic over the Eternal doom rebrand. 

Look buddy no one is preventing you from not liking Eternal. Its perfectly fine not to like anything

but its just fact that Classic Doom, Doom 3 and 2016 are 3 distinc games with different styles and Design Philosophies and its just silly to directly compare a Horror Games to an Action game just because they both have Guns and Demons.

[icecoldduke]

1 minute ago, jazzmaster9 said:

Look buddy no one is preventing you from not liking Eternal. Its perfectly fine not to like anything

but its just fact that Classic Doom, Doom 3 and 2016 are 3 distinc games with different styles and Design Philosophies and its just silly to directly compare a Horror Games to an Action game just because they both have Guns and Demons.

I'm comparing the two games, because its two games in the same franchise :), so I have more ground to directly compare then two different games that simply have "guns and demons". Its two games with the same branding, perfectly alright to compare. 

[jazzmaster9]

2 minutes ago, icecoldduke said:

I'm comparing the two games, because its two games in the same franchise :), so I have more ground to directly compare then two different games that simply have "guns and demons". Its two games with the same branding, perfectly alright to compare. 

okay Guns, Demons and a 4 letter name cuz thats all it is a Name. Still different gameplay Styles and Design so my point still stands.

Edited December 28, 2020 by jazzmaster9

[icecoldduke]

2 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

okay Guns, Demons and a 4 letter name cuz thats all it is a Name. Still different gameplay Styles and Design so my point still stands.

That argument doesn't make sense, its perfectly alright to compare two games in the same franchise, even if the franchise is having a identity crisis, and each game in franchise is completely different. 

[jazzmaster9]

7 minutes ago, icecoldduke said:

That argument doesn't make sense, its perfectly alright to compare two games in the same franchise, even if the franchise is having a identity crisis, and each game in franchise is completely different. 

It makes perfect sense to me, A slow paced horror games is different from a Fast Paced Arcade like game.

 

Look buddy, its fine and dandy to not like Eternal or think that it won't sell. No one is stopping liking one or the other.

But the fact of the matter is that you can't compare games of the different Genre. both games tackle Level design, Enemy Design and Gamplay loops differently. Both Takes storytelling and Environmental designs differently.

 

Saying that ohh Ultimate Doom is better because it allows Exploration, when Doom Eternal doesnt have Exploration as its Level Design focus

or say Doom Eternal is better because it allows for more Weapon options, because Ultimate Doom isn't focused on Gunplay Variety. 

 

But we are just repeating ourselves at this point and pretty much derailing the thread now.

Edited December 28, 2020 by jazzmaster9

[icecoldduke]

1 minute ago, jazzmaster9 said:

It makes perfect sense to me.

And there we will leave it, you believe you can't compare two games under the same branding, I definitely believe you can. 

[D4NUK1]

5 hours ago, icecoldduke said:

That argument doesn't make sense, its perfectly alright to compare two games in the same franchise, even if the franchise is having a identity crisis, and each game in franchise is completely different. 

Having a "identity crisis" it's not bad per se, if not.

Resident Evil 4 should not be a Resident Evil
Prey 2013 should not be a Prey game.
Duke Nukem 3D should not be a Duke Nukem Game.
Resident Evil 7 should not be a Resident Evil._

Yazuka Like a Dragon it's not a Yakuza game.

Fallout 3 and onward should not be a Fallout.
Metroid Prime should not be a Metroid.
Halo Wars should not be a Halo game.
Etc

It's just a way game devs try new things, all games should not be a updated version of olders games, thats way spiritual succesors always are created, to cater to fans to now old generes.

Edited December 28, 2020 by jamondemarnatural

[jazzmaster9]

2 minutes ago, icecoldduke said:

And there we will leave it, you believe you can't compare two games under the same branding, I definitely believe you can. 

Nice job ignoring and cherry picking Reponses. 

1 minute ago, jamondemarnatural said:

It's just a way game devs try new things, all games should not be a updated version of olders games.

Exactly this.

but ... lets compare Dune 1 and Dune 2K becuase thats perfectly normal to compare a Point and Click game to an RTS

Edited December 28, 2020 by jazzmaster9

[icecoldduke]

1 minute ago, jamondemarnatural said:

Having a "identity crisis" it's not bad per se, if not.

Resident Evil 4 should not be a Resident Evil
Prey 2013 should not be a Prey game.
Duke Nukem 3D should not be a Duke Nukem Game.
Resident Evil 7 should not be a Resident Evil._

Yazuka Like a Dragon it's not a Yakuza game.
Etc

It's just a way game devs try new things, all games should not be a updated version of olders games.

Completely agree, my statement was in the context of "not being able to compare games in a franchise that's having a identity crisis", which I firmly believe is false. 

[D4NUK1]

5 hours ago, icecoldduke said:

Completely agree, my statement was in the context of "not being able to compare games in a franchise that's having a identity crisis", which I firmly believe is false. 

So i can agree that Doom Eternal it's better Doom because it's play ands feels better?

[icecoldduke]

Just now, jamondemarnatural said:

So i can agree that Doom Eternal it's better Doom because it's play ands feels better?

If that's your opinion, my personal opinion is the opposite, Classic Doom is better then Doom Eternal.

[D4NUK1]

5 hours ago, icecoldduke said:

 

The image you found of Doom Eternal, isn't gameplay by the way, that's a concept art piece(or gameplay screen touched up heavily in photoshop). Here's a true in game screenshot. 

 

 

This should be the real screenshoot for comparation,  The level Super Gore nest that's is a City themed level, instead of a space station.

It's really also sells the athmophere and yeah, you need to apreciate when it's all done of enemies. That's being said. It's understable your opinion, but at the moment as iDsoftware it's still going forward with the Doom Eternal Gameplay style for the DLC's i hope they go still that way. Helping with the gameplay loop to Classic fans making ammo more accesible on lower difficulty should be a good 50/50 way to help to players that's still dont get the hang to play good.


Also, in the name of the original topic, Modded should be considered like other game instead of the Vainilla Game enchanced, because some gameplays wads really change the way to play that's it's not the original Doom Anymore, and that's can't be also possible with Eternal, because it's just they own way to play.

[chemo]

1 hour ago, icecoldduke said:

The image you found of Doom Eternal, isn't gameplay by the way, that's a concept art piece(or gameplay screen touched up heavily in photoshop).

While it is something of a bullshot, the area shown in that screenshot has no significant downgrades in the actual game. Probably the biggest difference is the lack of a Gargoyle.

 

1 hour ago, icecoldduke said:

Here's a true in game screenshot. 

 

This scene isn't very complex, it just has quite a lot of set dressing

If set dressing isn't "complex", what is it, then? There's a ton of detail in that one frame.

 

1 hour ago, icecoldduke said:

also keep in mind the set dressing in Doom Eternal doesn't have to be perfect either, your running so fast through the game, as long as something looks decent, the player doesn't pay attention to the environment anyway. The maze needs to provide a fun environment. 

 

Your looking too much into the aesthetics. Take away the visuals and just focus on the gameplay. Why don't you believe the community could use idstudio to make a compelling and fun maze for Doom Eternal? 

When the bar is set so high in the vanilla game, then yeah, I think aesthetics are important. Unlike classic DOOM, areas that look sub-par are going to stick out like a sore thumb. When you have all these weapon and enemy models of such high quality, then trying to match up to it is important, or else the effort would just look painfully amateurish, even if it plays well.

 

I'm not saying that people wouldn't ever be able to do a good job with modding DOOM Eternal should official tools ever be released, but when there's such higher and differing standards when it comes to hardware requirements and the skills desired, then it's only natural that a theoretical modding scene would look less diverse and impressive compared to its predecessors. Hell, id Software themselves have expressed desire to release modding tools for this game, but we haven't seen them yet, probably because of the current barrier of entry. They would need to take time and effort into making the SDK suitable for hobbyists.

Edited December 28, 2020 by chemo

[icecoldduke]

Quote

If set dressing isn't "complex", what is it, then? There's a ton of detail in that one frame.

 

Let's take a look at super gore nest. I enabled noclip via the cheat engine, a lot of debug options seem to be disabled, so this the best I can do. 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not trying to take away from the quality of the composition, more trying to show it's not technically difficult to achieve the composition. The set has some organic bits, some debris, and some broken down buildings. They had a fantastic art team the developed a beautiful composition, and a fantastic engineering team that developed a engine that could pull off the vision. But the vision has very few layers to it, and I think the community could develop fantastic looking environments without much effort, if id software released the toolset. The only thing I worry about is the community rigging up lights in modded environments. 

Edited December 28, 2020 by icecoldduke

[gothgirlxx96]

Can't wait till they release the source code for Doom Eternal so then we can finally churn out 90's style graphics sounds replacements in the glorious new engine!!

 

3D VR Terry traps in 4K!

Ed eddn eddy play with the BFG !

Mr Friendly 2021!

Simpsons Doom Eternal !

Grezzo 9000!!!!

& tons of amazing porn !! 👍👍👍👏👏👏👏

[chemo]

35 minutes ago, icecoldduke said:

 

Let's take a look at super gore nest. I enabled noclip via the cheat engine, a lot of debug options seem to be disabled, so this the best I can do. 

 

---

 

I'm not trying to take away from the quality of the composition, more trying to show it's not technically difficult to achieve the composition. The set has some organic bits, some debris, and some broken down buildings. They had a fantastic art team the developed a beautiful composition, and a fantastic engineering team that developed a engine that could pull off the vision. But the vision has very few layers to it, and I think the community could develop fantastic looking environments without much effort, if id software released the toolset. The only thing I worry about is the community rigging up lights in modded environments. 

Even in that one area (which is also one of several in that one level), the scene is dense with geometry and little details. Yeah, they didn't bother to model areas the player wouldn't see, but I don't see how that downplays the rest of the effort. If anything, I think it goes to show how much time they spent making sure to optimize the level without breaking the illusion of a real place.

Edited December 28, 2020 by chemo

[Doomkid]

Comparing anything to Doom 1 and 2 is unfair, even the new Dooms which are great games in their own right. Classic Doom is the greatest gaming experience I have ever had, there's no shame in not being as good as they are. It's frankly an unrealistic standard to hold any game to, the new Dooms included.

[Egg Boy]

I am so tired of this conversation. Kind of seems like bait at this point to come into the new Doom section just to post about how much better the old game is. You're in Doomworld. You're preaching to the choir. Sorry for being cynical, this just comes up far too frequently, and generally, no quality discussions are to be had. Really, I like classic Doom more, but the reasons I like classic Doom, as compared to modern Doom are completely different to a point where I probably couldn't articulate why I prefer one over the other, but I could articulate what I like about each of them separately.

[taufan99]

Oh we doing this discussion again? Welp, never mind. I'm just passing by, in that case.

[icecoldduke]

37 minutes ago, Egg Boy said:

I am so tired of this conversation. 

This conversation seems to come up when people post critical points about Doom Eternal, and small portions of its fan base run to its defense. I really wish people would set aside their beliefs and stop shutting down critiques of Eternal. 

 

Quote

Even in that one area (which is also one of several in that one level), the scene is dense with geometry and little details. Yeah, they didn't bother to model areas the player wouldn't see, but I don't see how that downplays the rest of the effort. If anything, I think it goes to show how much time they spent making sure to optimize the level without breaking the illusion of a real place.

I wish I could get the game open in renderdoc and walk through the render pipeline. It's really not that complex of scene, the part I think your conflating is composition for small detail, if I care enough I'll see if I can get a pipeline walk through going. To my original point, depending on how modular the environment art is, the Doom community could easily make fan maps in idstudio.

Edited December 28, 2020 by icecoldduke

[D4NUK1]

5 hours ago, icecoldduke said:

This conversation seems to come up when people post critical points about Doom Eternal, and small portions of its fan base run to its defense. I really wish people would set aside their beliefs and stop shutting down critiques of Eternal. 

 

 

Seems for your later posts that's is because you dissagree with the strengths of the Eternal Gameplay, even if they make senses and do the game a more hectic Action FPS, It's okay to not to like it, but you can't say that core gameplay of Doom Classic it's better, because it's a huge gap of difference.

Try to talk it with a more open mindset instead of stick with the ones of the classics.

For the topic on moding of Doom Eternal, that's not my forte as i trink any 3D Modeling work will be always more hard that's sprites based.

[jazzmaster9]

1 hour ago, Egg Boy said:

I am so tired of this conversation. 

Can't beat decades of AAA industry experience. We're all just Fanboys to real industry veterans.

20 minutes ago, jamondemarnatural said:

but you can't say that core gameplay of Doom Classic it's better, because it's a huge gap of difference
 

no no no, its got Doom in the name so you MUST compare them... even though they have VERY LITTLE common design philosophies other than Guns and Demons. it's stupid not to compare them... 

Edited December 28, 2020 by jazzmaster9

[Super Mighty G]

12 hours ago, icecoldduke said:

I really wish people would set aside their beliefs and stop shutting down critiques of Eternal. 

Keeping quiet is difficult when arguments are made in bad faith. 

 

It's like I said. This conversation is a waste of time as the last page of posts has shown. Nothing has been gained. 

Edited December 28, 2020 by Super Mighty G

[mrthejoshmon]

Hey look, the bi-weekly (usually alternating Tuesdays) "Nu-Doom isn't just Ultimate Doom again therefore is shit" thread I'm so fond of...

[CivilianM91]

Quote

...like turning off the colors for chainsawing...”

I might be wrong but isn’t there an option to remove glory kill highlights in the pause menu? Believe it’s under the game tab.

Edited December 29, 2020 by CivilianM91