[Philosophical Discussion] "Soul" in Doom level design

[⇛Marnetmar⇛]

Have you ever gotten frustrated working on a level because it lacked a certain much-necessary je ne sais quoi?

 

Where, because this is something seemingly immaterial, you couldn't manage to pinpoint where the problem was?

 

What is "soul" anyway, and why is it sometimes there and other times absent? Can its absence be troubleshooted? If so, how?

 

For the record, I don't think this is necessary a strictly psychological problem -- I think that in many cases this is very much a real problem that can be solved, the question is how to get a good grasp on the problem.

Edited December 29, 2020 by Marn

[Decay]

Yes, this has happened often to me. It was troubleshot by having other project members look at the map, either making detailed suggestions or doing structural edits and passing it back, or simply giving it a new theme.

 

Sometimes the soul is there or not depending on the energy put into it during play itself. For PVP it has a lot to do with the players interactions with other players in the map (doesn't necessarily have to be reciprocal/unanimous feelings of soul). Often it comes down to whether or not you're simply having a good time.

[Major Arlene]

Having participated in a ton of community projects, I've tried to avoid this very problem and failed miserably every time. But generally it ends up with greater maps. 
To put it straightforward, sometimes mapping burnout happens and seeing a lack of "soul" in a map is a common symptom. Probably when this happens it's best to take a break, look at pinterest for inspiration, or otherwise just step back and make some goals for what you want to accomplish in the map, and try to stick to that.

[DSC]

"Soulless" is just a buzzword used as an ad-hominem when you don't have any good arguments against somebody's work. Well, most of the time at least.

[P41R47]

11 minutes ago, DSC said:

"Soulless" is just a buzzword used as an ad-hominem when you don't have any good arguments against somebody's work. Well, most of the time at least.

 

are you implying that maybe Marn doesn't like his own work but doesn't know how to put it on words, even when the map itself may doesn't have anything wrong on it?

It kinda hit the nail with the description he made of what he is feeling.

Also vaguely redundant and vague :/

 

As for the soul on maps, @Marn. It comes to why are you mapping for.

For example, if you ever take a look to the .txt that comes with most 90's and very early wads, i think that its more related to enthusiasm.

In those .txt you can READ the sould the put on the wad.

Even when it is less than mediocre.

But, how can that be possible?

Well, because those were the begginnings of the mapping community we are today.

Those maps were made on pure ingenuity, not caring much on all the theories that flourished years later.

Its like when you opened the builder for the first time, knowing that if you put your effort on it, you could make something legendary.

What you say about don't feeling the ''soul'' of it, happened to me when i was writing an article for a magazine, but didn't liked much about what i was writing.

 

What i try to say is that maybe you like to map, but for what you are mapping for doesn't enthusiasm you enough to feel like it is something really good, and maybe without knowing it, it is something marvelous. It happens a lot when someone make art.

You deem something like a vaguely proper effort, but the critics and all the people look at it as something beyond amazing.

 

Don't stress it too much. As an art experience, not always you will be briming with enthusiasm and energy for the map at hand.

Thats when you have to use your ''mind'' instead of your ''soul''.

If the map achieve what you were aiming for, it probably is a good map.

Edited December 29, 2020 by P41R47

[DSC]

6 minutes ago, P41R47 said:

are you implying that maybe Marn doesn't like his own work but doesn't know how to put it on words, even when the map itself may doesn't have anything wrong on it?

No, I was talking about the people who constantly use that word as their only source of criticism. But now that you mention it, those guys are probably the reason poor Marn is having this problem in the first place.

[Michael Jensen]

In the simplest terms for me, map with a soul feels like the author was excited about his creation and had an idea, a vision, of what they wanted to create.

Soulless map would be a result of being in an autopilot mode while creating it. Technically competent, but without conveying anything. 

 

[P41R47]

6 minutes ago, A.H. Sankhatayan said:

In the simplest terms for me, map with a soul feels like the author was excited about his creation and had an idea, a vision, of what they wanted to create.

Soulless map would be a result of being in an autopilot mode while creating it. Technically competent, but without conveying anything. 

 

Pretty much this.

But being in auto-pilot doesn't mean that the map could not be good.

Edited December 29, 2020 by P41R47

[⇛Marnetmar⇛]

8 minutes ago, DSC said:

Those guys are probably the reason poor Marn is having this problem in the first place.

 

Nah this is from me evaluating my own work and it seems highly unlikely I'd be alone in this. I don't see why it wouldn't be a basically universal phenomenon that happens to everybody.

Edited December 29, 2020 by Marn

[DSC]

Just now, Marn said:

 

Nah this is from me evaluating my own work and it seems highly unlikely I'd be alone in this.

In that case I can't help you. Sorry :(

[P41R47]

7 minutes ago, Marn said:

 

Nah this is from me evaluating my own work and it seems highly unlikely I'd be alone in this.

you know what? As a writer, sometimes i felt a lot like what you are saying.

Even when i was writing something that i created myself.

Maybe its the pressure, maybe its the day, maybe its the RL.

There are multiple factors that may hinder your creativity efforts.

And sometimes, when you get over them, you still feel that you are not up to the task or that what you are doing isn't working.

Yep, its a hateful feeling for sure.

 

What i do when that happens, is write, in my case as a writer, write as detailed as possible how am i feeling.

Probably that alone may take me a lot of effort, but it usually take me out of that awful feeling of not doing things right.

 

Try something similar, but in mapping, like making some serious detailed area, even if you later don't use it for the map itself.

At least, it will take you out from that feeling of not achieving what you want.

Edited December 29, 2020 by P41R47

[Archanhell]

8 minutes ago, Marn said:

 

Nah this is from me evaluating my own work and it seems highly unlikely I'd be alone in this. I don't see why it wouldn't be a basically universal phenomenon that happens to everybody.

I do not know if it is due to me having a big mind or what, but I have never reaaaally happened this kind of problems, I always find a way to push forward and unleash my creativity into mapping, nevertheless, there were two times where I struggled against somethig more, which is despair - One when I lost all progress to my first mod called Entering the Impending Chaos due to not doing any backup and I abandoned it, and the second time when my PC died on my birthday (which I am using right now) and I lost all folders, notepads, musics, etc to TCTOA - if I did not save the pk3 and other stuff on Dropbox, I would be destroyed.

 

But that is all, I have never felt blocked or thinking either myself or my maps have no soul, all I need is music, a theme, a few ideas and willpower.

[Archanhell]

4 minutes ago, P41R47 said:

you know what? As a writer, sometimes i felt a lot like what you are saying.

Even when i was writing something that i created myself.

Maybe its the pressure, maybe its the day, maybe its the RL.

There are multiple factors that may hinder your creativity efforts.

And sometimes, when you get over them, you still feel that you are not up to the task or that what you are doing isn't working.

Yep, its a hateful feeling for sure.

 

What i do when that happens, is write, in my case as a writer, write as detailed as possible how am i feeling.

Probably that alone may take me a lot of effort, but it usually take me out of that awful feeling of not doing things right.

 

Try something similar, but in mapping, like making some serious detailed area, even if you later don't use it for the map itself.

At least, it will take you out from that feeling of not achieving what you want.

Aye, as a fellow writer, this here sounds like a really nice idea, thanks for sharing this P41, surely it will help many people who may be struggling against those same feelings!

 

[Not Jabba]

I'll agree with others in general and say that you shouldn't feel obligated to have "soul" in every map you make -- you should just make what you like, or map for the sake of it if that's what you want to do.

As a more specific answer to the question, I think "soul" is usually shorthand for distinctness or clear authorial voice; the latter isn't something you can really force, but the former is definitely a factor you can troubleshoot, and doing so has often been helpful for me. Basically, you can have an overall idea for a map but still end up with sections of it that feel generic to you as a mapper; if so, a question you can ask yourself is, "What can I put here that will make it feel a little more different?" This could be as broad as changing the texture theme of that whole section or as narrow as putting in a goofy Doomcute object. You could also decide it's the gameplay that's lacking, not the architecture/visuals, and redo some room shaping and revise the flow of that section of the map, possibly integrate it more nonlinearly with the rest of the map or carve out some walls and expand a room into an outdoor section that expands your opportunities for fights, or whatever. If it's a room with a combat setpiece and it feels dull to you, you probably want to look at how you can revise the combat setpiece (I find this can often be done in interesting ways without changing the room, and that is a challenge that has given me some great results...but it depends on the room). Conveniently, the answer to "this feels too samey to me" can always be "make it less samey," and there are a ton of different ways to do that, so you have a lot of opportunity to inject creativity wherever you need to and in whatever ways appeal to you.

[Snark]

Add more lost souls.

[Super Mighty G]

Honestly I abhor the soul/soulless phrasing because of how memesters use it to make inflammatory statements as @DSC said. But for the sake of argument, I don't feel it's something that can be objectively quantified. All I can say is if something is "soulless" it may not be interesting. So the question should then become "how do I make this interesting?". I'm speaking in terms of gameplay in this case. Aesthetics are its own separate thing.

[Cinnamon]

"Soul" in any creative endeavor is something that most people sort of know what it refers to, but that actually doesn't have any concrete meaning. In my mind it's basically an amalgamation of all the things you enjoy within that creative sphere; when every single part works, the whole feels more than the sum of them. It's extremely hard to pinpoint, however.

 

I don't think it's anything to worry about. Either it happens or it doesn't. Also, this "soul" (in regards to music I call it "feeling" but it's along the same line) is sometimes arbitrary, as well as sometimes something that someone might find in your creative output that you don't. God knows, it has happened to me a lot in creative writing, e.g...

Edited December 29, 2020 by Cinnamon Killjoy
Grammar.

[baja blast rd.]

My map's got soul but it's not a soldier. 

[Doomkid]

My latest SP wad (Doomkid’s mega which is currently on hiatus) is mostly competent, but it lacks the strong sense of gameplay continuity and gameplay smoothness that I try to put into all my stuff, thus it feels weak and soulless by comparison. I also usually have a pretty strong idea of what I want for setting/theme/sense of purpose, and that was also somewhat missing from the design process.

 

I still think I can go through and minorly overhaul what’s there into a wad with good gameplay and that “knows what it is”, but as of yet I just haven’t worked out how to do that, and bumping the project thread saying “how2soul?” doesn’t seem like the best approach - so I’m just sort of waiting til the answer comes to me..

 

This is all in contrast to the DM wad (Bourgeois) that Decay, Raz and I have built recently. While some of the maps are “formulaic” (they sort of have to be for fun DM) the wad itself still has a clear sense of personality, purpose and good gameplay. Working on the wad felt good, because we all knew what soul/personality we wanted the wad to have, and I feel we succeeded. 

 

Sorry for rambling - I think this all has to do with the “soul” of a wad though, so hopefully it’s on topic enough. And although Marn was clearly trying to get some answers to the question at hand, I do agree with DSC that the “soulless” pejorative is often pointlessly tossed around and often towards maps that clearly do have soul.

 

It really can be hard pinpointing “the soul factor” when it comes to wad making. To put some sort of period on this post, I’ll say I think soul often comes down to a lot of details and how they add up.

Edited December 29, 2020 by Doomkid

[CivilianM91]

I think it hinges on whether or not you’re enjoying what you’re doing. I feel usually that bleeds through into someone’s finished work- if they struggled seeing the value in what they were doing that tends to seep in. That’s what separates art from just something someone made, even if it’s not the finest wad.

 

I think this can be applied to any creative endeavor. I’ve certainly struggled with this in writing and art.

[tourniquet]

I've had a ton of ideas over the years however only a few have come to fruition, usually it takes me a few hours to notice if something is worth carrying on/hit or miss, sometimes it takes longer. The result of it is a folder full of scraps/half-assed concepts, sometimes even quite good maps, however non of em would have been fun to finish. I love Doom mapping, the creative freedom/creating worlds etc but the most important thing to me is to enjoy what I'm doing. What i'm trying to say is that you can either force yourself into finishing something, you might not be happy with in the end, or throw it in the bin and try something else you actually enjoy working on. I prefer the latter one

Edited December 29, 2020 by tourniquet

[Pirx]

i tend towards the definition that soul = uniqueness in a map, while soulless would mean samey, copypasted architecture and encounters. this explains why some old wads with their lack of details for modern standards can come across as charming, while modern ones with elaborate, but repetitive structures might be called soulless. 

[EvilNed]

I don't like maps that are too square and too flat.

They feel soulless to me.

[joepallai]

I struggled with this during the construction of "Opulence" for Akeldama.   In my case it was the result of trying too hard to salvage something previously made; when it turned out it would have been much easier to make something from scratch. 

 

The map's progress started off quick due to the re-use of old ideas, then progress became forced and stagnant.  I was just dissatisfied with nearly everything within it until I started making changes that gave it a new personality.  (It was also made during a horrible year professionally, which crept into every aspect of my life during that time; so I had to evaluate everything at least twice to see if it was just because of my current mood or because it was genuinely bad.)

 

I started to hate the map and ran into delays and spent more time troubleshooting connectivity than making cool new areas.  Eventually it stalled completely on me until I cut half of the map, rotated a huge section 90 degrees so that it no longer resembled its original self (this also fixed a gameplay problem) and began having fresh ideas towards progress and the map itself.   In the end, I ended up liking the map; but I think I bit off more than I could chew with the map.  I still have ideas from this map that I want to explore further, so in that regard it was a success and it did end up with a soul/personality eventually; but it was a struggle to get there.

 

I think players might never notice the lack of a soul within a level if they enjoy it; critics on the other hand might.   ("Doom by numbers" complaints, "Copy/Paste" complaints, etc.)  But it doesn't mean it isn't fun.  

[Vorpal]

I never really thought about it in terms of "soul" but I guess that would be like, those handful few maps that seem to just make themselves (lack of creative block, low delay between thought -> implementation, actually seems to play/flow nicely) aka "inspired". Most maps however feel more like work, a slog to get through. This isn't a bad thing imo, it's unreasonable to expect everything to be an inspired pearl of creation, and just gotta get through the "work" maps until the magic strikes.

 

Then there is at some other spectrum of crazy... the terrible maps, but you stick with them because they haunt your thoughts before you go to bed every night. Like some sort of OCD demon that needs to be exorcised from your mind, the only way to do it is to implement them in the editor. They still might end up in the garbage bin, but the OCD demon still demands you spend weeks to MAKE it first, that evil bastard

 

tl;dr soulless maps are still necessary piece of the creation puzzle

Edited January 1, 2021 by Vorpal

[purist]

I have never thought of it in terms of 'soul' but I have felt a similar phenomenon to what you describe.

 

The maps of mine I consider to have the most soul are not necessarily the best received by others. Often because the player is not aware of the original concept and design process. Sometimes speed maps or basic maps I feel more fondly for than epic, complex ones.

 

For me the following elements affect the "soul" of map:

 

Difficult build:

If I have to drop a map and come back to it, I hit mappers block or I run into technical difficulties. My opinion of the map is tainted by the torturous design.

 

Failure of concept:

If if have ideas for the level that don't execute as elegantly as I hoped they would. The level feels like a paler version of my intentions.

 

Personality:

This is something like the above but less tangible. It is basically where the map has the voice of the author going through it be it either cheeky traps, doomcute sector art or just incidental touches where the author nods to the player. Personality enhances the soul of the level.

 

Cohesiveness:

A sense of oneness where all aspects of the map feel like the belong together. This applies to the looks or the gameplay. Compartmentalised levels or levels with clash of styles feel less artful.

[kwc]

My interpretation is about as nebulous as the term itself, but I would typically understand it to be when I can sense the mapper's intentions in geometry and thing placement.

[Eric Claus]

Generally I view soul and soullessness on a certain axis, and it usually works for me as such...

 

If a project feels like it was inspired and I can see effort used and an attempt at a vision even if the execution is flawed I generally consider it has soul, a certain vibrancy that helps me a feel a sense of enjoyment, as in somebody who enjoyed working on it and was brave enough to throw it out into the world.  Soulless to me is a lack of energy or thought, it could be technically fine but if it just feels typical or phoned in it loses appeal.  That said not every inspired by or homage or whatever is "Soulless" just because it pulls on previous concepts especially if it channels the soul of the original but also tries to build or twist on the original idea.  Honestly if it feels like a mapper has made a good attempt and I can feel their "energy" as nebulous as that may sound I think it is a good thing, and honestly I will respect that hard work even if I don't necessarily enjoy it personally.