Uploading to IDgames, a difficult and discouraging experience

[Clippy]

Honestly I been trying to figure this out for a year. I'm surprised this process hasn't been modernized with a simple upload button but still requires an ftp program, stuff I have no experience in.

 

Thankfully a buddy steered me to this video which I hope fill finally help me because I have been struggling to follow written instructions:

 

 

 

Because I like to read Youtube comments and was wondering if others were struggling too, I found some pretty unwelcoming comments that genuinely made me sad

 

Some examples:

 

"Great, now everyone is going to upload shit and fill up the archive. :\ The whole idea behind making it hard for people was to make sure that the people who could submit stuff were smart enough to figure out the process. Now that anybody can do it, anybody can upload."

 

"I agree, this shouldn't of been made because part of the fun is trying to figure out how to upload. Plus, it keeps the inexperienced out."

 

"OMG. everyone is going to upload their first map, and fill up the archives with shit. Kind of ironic considering i'm a terrywad author, but for real."

 

"You don't realize what you may have just caused..."

 

....

 

I was pretty sad to see this and hope this reflects a very minor thoughtwave of the community

 

I worked really hard on my maps and they may not be the best but why discourage new mappers from keeping at it and maybe getting really good some day? 

 

These comments have actually bothered me to the point I need to talk about it I guess

 

The attitude feels like they are happy this process is complicated and let's snob any new ppl trying to get into mapping, which is really terrible and kind of hurts to see fellow players of Doom behave this way, chasing away ppl who share an interest in this wonderful game - killing the fun and destroying the community

 

Thankfully Doomworld has been inviting to me so I'll hope these comments again are the minority of ppl but I just had to vent I guess

 

After struggling so long to upload something and never using an ftp thing before, those comments didn't help my morale ( I still haven't got it done )

 

Kudos to the youtuber for making this video tho despite the negative ppl trying to suck the fun and energy out of this fun pasttime

 

Alight that's what I had to say

[Sectorslayer]

Such comments are just rude and discouraging. They do not realize what they are causing.

 

I was actually very pleased not to find such kind of behavior in the forums. Everybody seems to be very constructive and welcoming. <3

[whybmonotacrab]

There's nothing I hate more in this world than gatekeeping assholes trying to keep other people from engaging with a hobby they supposedly enjoy. Fuck those guys. 

[Misty]

The best course of action is ignore mean and discouraging comments, they don't offer anything useful to viewer. Life is too short to care what strangers on the net might say, especially if comments come out negative towards you and everyone else. As for ftp program I can suggest use Winscp, it rarely craps out compared to Filezilla. 

[baja blast rd.]

2 hours ago, Clippy said:

I was pretty sad to see this and hope this reflects a very minor thoughtwave of the community

The comments are not only mean but also pretty dumb. Anyone with half a clue about idgames knows that tricky uploading hasn't stopped what they are decrying -- first maps, poor maps, shovelware -- from making it to the archives in abundance. So no one with a clue would bother voicing those concerns that way. There are other implied bits of ignorance. Those comments call to mind Hemingway's iceberg theory, but replace characterization with stupidity. And everyone there sounds 12. Hopefully for their sake they have grown up. People like that would get banned from Doomworld in a hurry. 

Edited January 4, 2021 by rd.

[Gez]

At some point Youtube comments went broken on my usual browser, no longer displaying for some reason I never cared to find out. I haven't missed them.

[Maes]

I think the "gatekeeping" here is simply a result of the whole "legacy" workflow behind making Doom maps. It just so happens that it adds an aura of "elitism" and exclusivity to the whole process.

 

Τhink about it, you are making maps for a 25+ yo game, for which some of the editing tools have not really changed in conception or even at all -e.g. is there an up-to-date alternative for DEHACKED or even a native port of it for other OSes? You still have to use DOSBOX AFAIK.

 

Using FTP to upload would only be the natural -and only- way of uploading ANYTHING, anywhere, back in the day, and anyone bold enough to delve into Doom map making/editing/modding would certainly have mastered stuff like using the command line, DOSBOX and FTP for breakfast. They are required secondary powers, so to speak.

 

As for "simply adding a button" to the whole process....well, a form that helps fill the required README.TXT file with all required fields, and even makes a nice ZIP file out of your WAD file (and any additional ones) and then uploads it to a specific idgames ftp server could certainly be done (there are Javascript-based FTP clients by now, right?). It would perhaps be harder to do in 2000, 2005 or 2010, where someone would have to set up a "helper server" to act as a dumbed-down "FTP client for dummies", or a similar stand-alone application for Windows. But there simply wasn't enough demand for something like that, AFAIK, and making one would already be 90% of the way towards a full-fledged FTP client, so why would any dev bother?

Edited January 4, 2021 by Maes

[Gez]

4 minutes ago, Maes said:

e.g. is there an up-to-date alternative for DEHACKED

@exl maintains WhackEd.

[Doomkid]

On Doomshack.org we have an easy point-and-click uploader and let me tell you, attempts at abuse are dishearteningly common. We’ve had to implement many security features along the way, and we are backwater compared to idgames. I do wish it was easier and always have, which is part of why Doomshack was made in the first place, but speaking from experience - it’s a security nightmare..

[Maes]

52 minutes ago, Gez said:

@exl maintains WhackEd.

Heh, I've stumbled upon that name for ages and wondered what it actually did. Still, that's the exception that proves the rule: it came out when, in 2013? So that means that for nearly 20 years Doom DEH patch authors had to go the hard/legacy way (and there still is no equivalent native option for Linux/MacOS, I presume).

 

Hell, DoomBuilder 1 was considered revolutionary for its 3D preview (which, ironically, is now broken under Windows 10), which is pretty much considered a sine qua non today and yet remained an unattainable Holy Grail of Doom mapping until 2010 (?) or so, when it came out. And yet generations of Doom mappers made do with editors not much different in conception or any easier to use than the original DEU for decades. I'm sure somebody must have complained "why can't I just make maps in 3D mode like <insert more modern game here>" along the way.

Edited January 4, 2021 by Maes

[Gez]

DoomCAD had a 3D preview back in the day... in wireframe mode! (And it took forever to load.)

[Maes]

Continuing on the OP, apparently making a pure JavaScript-based FTP uploading client is not all that simple, if the purpose remained to dumb down the FTP upload process as much as possible for the user while still remaining within the domain of the ftp-based idgames/incoming workflow.

 

If a level of decoupling was acceptable, then, sure, Ty could probably cobble together a simple HTML Forms webpage (the "simple upload button" approach that was discussed) and temporarily upload stuff to some intermediate backend and forward them via FTP to idgames/incoming or even do the screening right there in that separate backend (I think such a thing existed for a short while).

 

But this would be a custom system that'd need setting up a dedicated server with its associated maintenance, dealing with security issues etc.

Edited January 4, 2021 by Maes

[Xulgonoth]

Honestly the whole legacy FTP is fine, it might not be a terrible idea to update it so you could just upload something to a site and then it goes through the same security checks, but this process as it is isn't really that hard to figure out, especially with all the tutorials. I only ever tried to upload one wad to idgames and it was not a great experience for a different reason - it kept getting rejected on technicalities and the admins were less than helpful when I tried emailing them. Eventually I just gave up and gave it to a co-author to bother with, who finally managed to get the wad through.
Doomshack would be a great alternative if you want to avoid the headache, but my slight gripe with that site is that all the wads are very disorganised and you don't get to read exactly what you're downloading like you do on idgames or Wad Archive.

[Gez]

3 minutes ago, Maes said:

If a level of decoupling was acceptable, then, sure, Ty could probably cobble together a simple HTML Forms webpagening right there in that separate backend (I think such a thing existed for a short while).

Ty passed away in 2015.

[Silhouette 03]

5 hours ago, Clippy said:

The attitude feels like they are happy this process is complicated and let's snob any new ppl trying to get into mapping, which is really terrible and kind of hurts to see fellow players of Doom behave this way, chasing away ppl who share an interest in this wonderful game - killing the fun and destroying the community

This is really disheartening. everyone should have a chance to share what they created, regardless of quality. I hate elitism in ANY community. The idea that people look down on beginners disgusts me. Beginners(like myself) need criticism and reviews in order to establish what we get right and what to improve. So what if the archive is filled with beginner maps, they'll eventually improve. Apologies if this comes off as emotional.

5 hours ago, Clippy said:

I worked really hard on my maps and they may not be the best but why discourage new mappers from keeping at it and maybe getting really good some day? 

I feel the same way. Though my maps have their flaws and I often make mistakes, I want to make maps that people enjoy and will want to play. I know I'm not the only person in the community who feels this way, and to discourage people who want to make good maps and improve their skills to not submit their maps is stifling their potential to grow their skills as a mapper.

I know I'm still new here, but I just thought I'd leave my thoughts here. Maybe they make someone's day a little better. Either way, I'm glad people are so nice here. Have a good one!      

[mrthejoshmon]

5 hours ago, Clippy said:

"You don't realize what you may have just caused..."

Ah brilliant, my daily reminder that I was (and probably still am) an insufferable arsehole, I'm not going to even try and defend my comments on that video nor will I remove them.

 

Like every other day I see the shit I used to post and wonder if my asshole ever got jealous of the shit I used to speak, hot damn.

 

Yeah, terrible view point to have, no longer have it, hit me with a stick if you want to.

[Maes]

2 hours ago, Gez said:

DoomCAD had a 3D preview back in the day... in wireframe mode! (And it took forever to load.)

Achieving that perfect texture alignment must have been tons of fun....

 

30 minutes ago, Silhou3tte said:

This is really disheartening. everyone should have a chance to share what they created, regardless of quality.

But they do. There are many ways to upload and share WADs (file sharing, forums, personal websites etc.), only that idgames still carries a certain aura of being The place to be for anyone who's anything in WAD making. Which has a certain truth to is, since there's a screening process going on. Then again, idgames is also full of Terrywads, so...

Edited January 4, 2021 by Maes

[Doom_Dude]

2 hours ago, Maes said:

Hell, DoomBuilder 1 was considered revolutionary for its 3D preview (which, ironically, is now broken under Windows 10)..

 

Awww crap, just when I wanted to hack some 3d floors into my map after being away from doom editing for months.

 

As for dumb comments, I had my fill of those after uploading stuff to /idgames many years ago. heh

Edited January 4, 2021 by Doom_Dude

[printz]

Hmm. Last time I uploaded my crap to /idgames, it was super easy, if a bit too easy! It was a matter of following written instructions. All I needed was Windows Explorer. I had to write the ftp address in the bar and enter the /incoming folder and paste the .zip and .txt file there! It seemed too accessible to me actually, I wonder why didn't people paste crap in there or delete others' uploads. It didn't always work, though. Quite often I had to wait for a quiet hour in order to enter /incoming.

 

I guess now you need to authenticate with someone from the maintainers (by sending mails with your stuff to make sure it's you)? That's just typical gatekeeping against evil spammers, sadly can't easily get rid of them.

 

What I'm saying: I guess that any modern improvement on this is going to incur extra costs. Also it must NOT be connected to Doomworld, but to gamers.org.

Edited January 4, 2021 by printz

[Silhouette 03]

26 minutes ago, Maes said:

But they do. There are many ways to upload and share WADs (file sharing, forums, personal websites etc.), only that idgames still carries a certain aura of being The place to be for anyone who's anything in WAD making. Which has a certain truth to is, since there's a screening process going on. Then again, idgames is also full of Terrywads, so...

I see your point, though IDgames should have an easier and less complex way to upload WADs and newcomers should have a place(besides here and the other places you mentioned) to upload their maps. I find it severely ironic that, according to elitist snobs, terrywad authors are all fine, but beginner maps are simply unacceptable.

[Biodegradable]

15 hours ago, mrthejoshmon said:

Ah brilliant, my daily reminder that I was (and probably still am) an insufferable arsehole, I'm not going to even try and defend my comments on that video nor will I remove them.

 

Like every other day I see the shit I used to post and wonder if my asshole ever got jealous of the shit I used to speak, hot damn.

 

Yeah, terrible view point to have, no longer have it, hit me with a stick if you want to.

 

Ah don't worry, fam. We're not going to be burning little MrTheJoshmon effigies for a bad take you had 7 years ago. There shall be no bonking you with sticks today.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Biodegradable

[Dark Pulse]

6 hours ago, Clippy said:

"Great, now everyone is going to upload shit and fill up the archive. :\ The whole idea behind making it hard for people was to make sure that the people who could submit stuff were smart enough to figure out the process. Now that anybody can do it, anybody can upload."

 

"I agree, this shouldn't of been made because part of the fun is trying to figure out how to upload. Plus, it keeps the inexperienced out."

 

"OMG. everyone is going to upload their first map, and fill up the archives with shit. Kind of ironic considering i'm a terrywad author, but for real."

 

"You don't realize what you may have just caused..."

Let's just all go back to the days of instant messengers, where you actually had to feel people out and get to know them a bit.

 

To paraphrase Doomkid, hot social media takes will destroy your soul. Just do the whole fucking village.

[⇛Marnetmar⇛]

The people who post comments like that do it because they construct part of their identity on the exclusivity that comes with mastering arcane shit that's unintuitive for most people. When someone comes around and makes a tutorial that simplifies the process they can't enjoy their exclusivity anymore and they have a choice between realizing they're not so hot anymore or doubling down and blaming the peasants.

 

If you take the toxic asshole aspect out of it, you maybe could argue that a huge influx of new uploads would clog up /newstuff since each individual submission is, as far as I'm aware, checked by hand for compliance in a very tedious and time consuming process. I'm not sure if this is actually a valid argument though since I don't run the archive. But even if it is a valid argument, the resurgence in Doom's popularity and easier access to /idgames isn't the newbies' fault.

 

tl;dr those people are assholes and you should ignore them

Edited January 4, 2021 by Marn

[Maes]

Well, the proof is in the pudding. Someone could make the aforementioned Javascript/FTP-based web app which would forward stuff to idgames "with one button" and see how that will go down. Sounds like a cool weekend project, esp. for a fresh and eager CS student. That would take all the "exclusivity" and "arcane shit" out of the process, while not requiring any change in the back-end.

 

I don't recommend making too many -if any- test uploads to the actual idgames/incoming, though ;-)

Edited January 4, 2021 by Maes

[seed]

Don't listen to gatekeeping cunts, those exist solely to ruin other people's enjoyment so they can feel better about themselves and their insignificant lives.

 

I myself have only uploaded something basic once, but with Reaper's help, because the procedure was a bit confusing. Don't allow others to put you down, and avoid toxic environments where all idiots gather - Yes, YT's comments section tends to be one such hive, depending on the Youtuber.

Edited January 4, 2021 by seed

[TimeOfDeath666]

3 hours ago, Maes said:

Hell, DoomBuilder 1 was considered revolutionary for its 3D preview (which, ironically, is now broken under Windows 10)

 

To get db1 3d mode working on win10, I believe you have to uncheck "windowed 3d mode" in the configuration window.

[P41R47]

Instant reaction:

"See youtube and comments on the same sentence".

(oh, the irony of this ^)

 

On my dictionary, it reads the following definition:

 

-Youtube [ˈjuːtjuːb]: Place where idiots expose their idio(t)sincracy. Cancer of the internet. Good for tutorials. Food for the anti-anything out there.

Avoid if possible. Cringefest.

 

On a more important note, cheer up,

@Clippy. Its not hard on purpose.

Its hard by today standars, and just a remnant of and old era.

Most Doom users backthen had to face that trouble. It was just more usual than nowdays.

The terrywads up there are just a reminder that anyone can do it.

So don't be discourage by comment that only show the inmaturity of the time they were writen.

Don't give up, pal!

How other game let you taste the flavor of the old days like Doom?

May be annoying, but its an interesting process that still remain from the old days.

And that kind of experience, on the world we live today that even modern things are being forgotten moment after they appear, its pure gold.

[SilverMiner]

Seems like those guys are either wanting to end up newcomers' flow or just wanting to grumble a little

If someone wants to upload something somewhere and to make people play it, he'll find out how to do so, and without Aquarius videos.

And terry wad authors know how to do that even more so

 

If not idgames, there's ModDB at least lol, and dropbox

[Vorpal]

9 hours ago, Clippy said:

I found some pretty unwelcoming comments that genuinely made me sad

 

Those comments are being ironic, because the archive (by its nature as a collection) is and always has been mostly garbage myfirstwad type of stuff. This is why there has always been value in "best of" sites and wad review sites and doomworld's idgames browser adding comments and ratings, and so on - to find the gems amidst the garbage.

 

NOBODY browsers the archive at random, with an expectation of a quality wad lol. For that a targeted search is required 

[snapshot]

Yeah, fuck those guys, they're not even worth the attention they're getting. Negative nancies who only exist to ruin other people's fun and drag others down with them.

Edited January 7, 2021 by sluggard