"New year, new URE" - URE:E2 - E2M2 up!

["JL" was too short]

8 hours ago, Zylinderkatze said:

 

There is, yes :D Former human AND former sergeant both exist as decoration.

 

However, with my maps you can always somehow get to the enemies that drop pickups (I think without exception). Even if that's not really a DOOM mapping / PWAD "law", I always strive to make it possible. If somehow not possible, I put a non-pickup-dropping enemy instead xD

 

I think I'll just make them visually connect, only. Probably without any item pickup hinting or teasing. Maybe I will actually lean on that dead enemies idea, though.. I'll keep this place updated as it happens ^^

That's fair, if you don't want to do it in your own maps.  Just saying it would be seem heck of a lot more fair and natural to the typical player than being unable to get a 'real' item.  Might have been a way to thread that needle.

[Zylinderkatze]

On 4/20/2023 at 12:06 PM, Zylinderkatze said:

I'll keep this place updated as it happens ^^

 

so.. I actually did do the "things to pick up" bit.. but they are actually pick-up-able from E2M2!

 

^{This is the view from E2M2, actually.}

 

The view from E2M4 isn't done yet (haven't copied it over yet because I'm not done ^^)

 

This is what the pickups look like, if you even find this area during E2M2:

 

^{Ohhh.. generous!}

 

I might even make it so that this area is accessible from both maps.. maybe someone was nice enough to restock between the times the player gets there first and later on?

 

It's coming along, I think.

[Zylinderkatze]

Eyyyy~

 

So since the E2M2/E2M4 crossover is done now, I went back to a nearby passage that I had kind of neglected and I made this door.. added some light.. and found it pleasant to the eye. So here you go:

 

^{The door itself looks a bit boring though.}

 

I like how the light spreads into that passage a little.

 

Granted, I made it do that.. I'm just happy with how it turned out.

 

There isn't really anything behind that door yet. But this is your update for now!

 

See ya later :)

["JL" was too short]

"I made it do that; I'm happy with how it turned out" are the two statements at the heart of successful Doom mapping. 

[Zylinderkatze]

Still not done and this may be crazy but..

 

..I think my maps are too big.

 

^{At least a third of all this is optional, too.}

 

And of course this is only the automap view without any of the "so secret they must be hidden"-secrets.

 

I'm not ready to make any predictions yet. But I am definitely more done than.. well.. not done, with E2M4.

 

Exciting!

[Cacodemon187]

3 hours ago, Zylinderkatze said:

So since the E2M2/E2M4 crossover is done now, I went back to a nearby passage that I had kind of neglected and I made this door.. added some light.. and found it pleasant to the eye. So here you go:

 

 

Ooh yesss. I love dynamic lighting like this :)

[Zylinderkatze]

"I was today years old.."

 

..when I learned (or was reminded) that using joined helped sectors with the desired target brightnes does not work as expected when it involves several sectors that are next to each other.

 

Basically, what I wanted to achieve was the effecvt of light being switched on with light falloff, further away from the switched-on ceiling lights.

 

What I got was this:

^{Everything's at about 200 light level, I think.}

 

It looks like it set the main area (the one with the lamps in the ceiling flat) from 130 to 200, then all adjacent sectors did what was asked of them: being set to the brightest adjacent.. which was at that point also the 200 from that main area.

 

Not sure if stuff can be achieved with sector-adjacent edge / line directions.. I suppose instead of joined sectors I could also just have actual sectors that seperate the tagged ones from one another..

 

..I'll have to do some testing in a dedicated map to see if I can get this done.. it would look cool if I can.

 

 

 

Edit: After testing, it looks like the engine quite literally does what it says on the tin: "Change to brightest adjacent" sets the light of all sectors with that same tag to the brightest sector adjacent to any one of them.

 

Edit 2: It looked as though that unexpected behavior only happened when they were actually joined.. which would've had a simple solution: Not join the sectors to the ones that are "target light level sector adjacent".

 

Edit 3: It seems that that only worked as a fluke when I unjoined them (using the "Make Sectors Mode") because I seem to have done that in an order where maybe the sector numbers ended up in an order that worked..

 

Edit 4: It seems, upon further inspection, to work when the "to be brightest" sector has the lowest sector number. Regardless of the order / direction in which the triggering lines are crossed.. when the l but at this point it seems to be editor luck more than anything.

 

See attached "lca.zip" file if you want to try it yourself.

- lca.wad: The sectors are not joined in that example and the gradient works, regardless of you cross the passage with the light level triggers from dark (D) to bright (B) of reverse.

- lca-joined.wad: I joined the sectors in the bigger room to their reference sectors.. here, the light gradient only works if you cross them from dark (D) to bright (B), not the other way around.

- lca-broken.wad: This is an example of it not working.. I "unjoined" the sectors from "lca-joined.wad" but not in any order, in case I intentionally did it randomly. The light behaves differently in each direction, both results (D > B and B > D) are undesired.

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by Zylinderkatze

["JL" was too short]

Speaking only for myself and obviously having different mapping goals and methods than you (which is actually one of the reasons I love this thread to pieces)—

This is why I don't bother with vanilla tricks anymore and just work in a "properly" scriptable map format. XD

[Zylinderkatze]

4 minutes ago, jerrysheppy said:

properly

 

I know what you mean. Oftentimes I basically near-despair on "stuff that should be working but doesnt".. but getting it to work, eventually, is a rather sweet win. I'm sure I'll get something to work the way I want it to.. it's just a bit "meh" when you're in the middle of a map and already several hundred (or thousand) sectors in and "hoping that merging / splitting sectors so that vanilla things work" becomes increasingly.. nailbitey.

 

I'm not sure what's wrong with me, that I "enjoy" stretching limitations to their limits.. but I'm not questioning it xD

[Zylinderkatze]

4 hours ago, Zylinderkatze said:

at this point it seems to be editor luck more than anything

 

Here's what some wikis have to say about it:

 

Fandom: https://doom.fandom.com/wiki/Linedef_type#Lighting

Quote

Lights to Maximum Neighbor

Each tagged sector is set to the maximum light level found in any adjacent sector. The tagged sectors are changed in numerical order, and this may influence the result.

 

Doomwiki: https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Lighting_effects#Linedef_types

Quote

Sets the tagged sector's brightness to the brightest connected sector when walked over. Despite being labeled "light turn on" in the source, it can also darken the target sector's light if it is already brighter than any connected sector.

 

 

So it does look like I will have to make extra sure that the sectors have the right numbers. Kind of what I expected, which doesn't make it any more fun though.

 

Sometimes it sucks to be right xD

[zokum]

You can't really rely on the doomwiki for linedef types. The page is full of Boom-specific stuff, making it hard to read, and it leaves out a lot of details about the various linedef specials. Your best bet is to read the source code. Sometimes there are some subtle gochas which you have to take into account.

There's a linedef special that is said to raise the ceiling to the tallest neigboring ceiling. Except it doesn't quite do that. It will raise it up to a height of 0, or if any nearby are even taller, to that level. That means if you got a ceiling with a height of -256 and the nearby ones are -128, it will raise all the way to 0. This is most likely an oversight by id. The code sets 0 as the current value and then looks for any taller values. The problem is then that 0 can be taller than the tallest. The intended behavior should probably be to have the default start at -32767 or so.

Many of the linedefs have these unexpected ways to operate and you have to know about this if you intend to make the most out of the engine.

(This is all from memory, so it might be subtly wrong...)

Edited April 24, 2023 by zokum
Added excuse

[Zylinderkatze]

7 hours ago, zokum said:

Except it doesn't quite do that.

 

Right! I actually ran into some unexpected behavior like that in one of the maps of URE (E1). The area I used it in was entirely "below 0" and some sectors ended up being raised much higher than I expected (and higher than any surrounding floors or ceilings). At that point I (frustratedly) reworked how you'd interact with that area so I don't 100% remember which action was the one that backfired, compared to my expectation.

 

7 hours ago, zokum said:

Your best bet is to read the source code.

 

Being a programmer (of sorts) myself, I should've just looked into the source code by now. I think that growing up with Doom, before I was in IT, kind of made me reluctant to breach the seal of my "childhood Pandora's box". Now that you mention it, I am wondering why I haven't done that sooner (the sentence prior to this is my attempt at explaining it to myself).

 

I think in a way, "finding out through testing whether a line action actually does what I want it to" (and often finding quirks in the process) might even be part of the.. err.. childlike wonder that sometimes comes with mapping, for me.

 

But all I can think of now is "why haven't I looked at the source code" xD

Edited April 24, 2023 by Zylinderkatze

[Zylinderkatze]

Update?

 

Did some more fiddling with the light sector thingies.. they all switch to the same light level still.. but by nowe I am almost willing to leave it like that (and only make it one light action). I'm wasting too much time and it's only 3 different light levels from 200 - 150.. I'm not really sure how noticable it would even be to someone who doesn't know I worked on it for hours xD

 

I also prepared some sort of "one-two-punch" ambush (connected to the lights switching on) and it's kind of evil in a way that makes me happy. Heheh.

 

No pictures because I'm lazy.

["JL" was too short]

Making me think of how as a teenager in the 90s I could never figure out how to use the stair builder specials (I think I did it successfully one time by accident, without actually knowing what I was doing and why it was working).

And now that I have chubzdoomer to explain it to me I'd rather pop open the script editor and just tell all the sectors what to do, dammit.  "No, you go over here.  NO I SAID FORTY-EIGHT UNITS AND I MEANT FORTY-EIGHT UNITS."

[Zylinderkatze]

Let there be light!

^{As in.. a light headache.}

 

I think I worked it out. Without looking at the code ^^;

 

The whole nudge towards how the calculation / evaluation of the adjacent light levels is done by sector number (ascending) was enough.

 

So what I did was:

1. give the same tag to every sector that I want to have the same light level
2. find out which of those sectors has the lowest sector number
3. join that sector to the control sector (that's adjacent to the desired light level)

 

And the result is that the area goes from this:

 

To this:

 

And yes, that is the desired light distribution.

 

 

It's really rather subdued. All sectors start off at 130 and there's 3 light levels I set them to:

• Main Area sectors: go to 210
• Raised platforms and the two outcrops on either side of the door go to 185
• Switch outcrop (on the right platform) and some "spread" sectors farther away go to 160

Only I'm doing it in reverse order (dark to light) to prevent that a sector I want to be the darkest of the three ends up next to one that was previously brightened (higher) and ends up picking that (too high) light level.

 

 

But here's the problem:

^{Of course there's a problem.}

 

The lines that trigger the light change are really really close together.. because of course I want it to look like an immediate change of all sectors. They are currently 2 map units ("floor FLAT pixels") apart.

 

And what seems to happen is: If you run across them, the change happens.. too fast? I am presuming that at least 2 of the 3 triggers end up in the same tick / calculation cycle (in my limited understanding) and end up being set to the same light level (because they get triggered / evaluated in the wrong order..?). 

 

Whatever the reason may be, if you run, the same map (with no changes) can end up looking like this instead:

 

^{Yes it's brighter. No, no one would care. But I do xD}

 

So now I am either going to have to spread the lines further apart and risk that it looks weird when you walk slow.. or live with this "potentially too bright" situation.

 

I'll sleep on it, then experiment some more tomorrow.

Edited April 26, 2023 by Zylinderkatze

["JL" was too short]

I'm almost positive that someone, maybe even me, has asked you this question somewhere in these threads, but I can't recall if I know the answer.

Have you ever thought about using mikoveyors for vanilla voodoo doll scripting?

[Zylinderkatze]

8 hours ago, jerrysheppy said:

question

 

I'm almost positive that I forgot whether someone, maybe even you, has asked me this before xD

 

I just looked it up and it doesn't sound familiar.

 

Most likely reason why I didn't submit it to memory is that when (if) someone asked me, I misread it as being a non-vanilla thing which I didn't want to incorporate (for it's non-vanilla.. ness).

 

On top of that I would probably quote that I don't want to use tricks and quirks that I haven't "discovered" on my own. For egotistical reasons.

 

But that would be a lie, if I look at it truthfully- because I know I've used (or tried to use) midtextures on 2-sided linedefs to create fake windows and such.. and that's something I saw way way back in 199X on this very website when I was still so, so new to editing. Also, self-referencing sectors, even as early as URE2020's reworked E1M1, though I don't think I kept it in.

 

Either way.. no excuses! I'll look into that right this evening when I get back home :)

Thank for for bringing this (back) to my attention!

Edited April 27, 2023 by Zylinderkatze

["JL" was too short]

Doing a bit of brushing up on it myself, it does have the disadvantage that people who customarily use GZDoom for everything including vanilla maps (including, well... me) would have it break for them unless they specifically used a compatibility patch.

[Zylinderkatze]

32 minutes ago, jerrysheppy said:

GZDoom

yeah I saw that in the "disadvantages" section earlier (but then work caught up to me and I couldn't really post anymore ^^)

 

I'll still play some with the idea- I saw that there's a fix / script so that it still works in GZDoom.. but that means I'd have to publish an additional version.

 

We'll see ^^ it'll be fun to try out new things, even if I don't end up using them.

 

I think I'll just spread out the trigger lines further, maybe experiment with blinking light sector types of such. 

 

Either way I'm thankful you mentioned it. Keep the ideas coming!

[Zylinderkatze]

Sooo.. here's my version.

 

^{Works only goodish for some reason}

 

Press: check

Explosion pushing the doll: check

Doll falling and triggering W1-lines to switch lights: check

Doll continuing to fall: ehhhh..

 

It only goes to about half the length of the "trench" that I cout out for it. The whole thing is 256 and the voodoo doll stops with a noticable impact ("oof" and all).. which is also reflected to my own perspective (meaning the camera "ducks" as if it had been me who landed after a long fall).

 

 I mean- I am probably not going to use this anyways- but it was fun to try it out and see it in action for myself. 

 

I'll just have to only use line actions that can be triggered by monsters for now!

 

Well.. not now now.

 

It's time for bed again already ._.

[Zylinderkatze]

One last thing before I go..

 

Here, have a screenshot of a passage with an outcrop because I just made it.. when I was originally planning to actually close UDB for today xD

 

^{A Cell Charge. How.. generous.}

 

Goodnight!

["JL" was too short]

5 hours ago, Zylinderkatze said:

I just made it.. when I was originally planning to actually close UDB for today xD

It me

[Zylinderkatze]

5 hours ago, jerrysheppy said:

It me

 

11:45pm > "I think it's time to close UDB and go to bed!" > 11:46pm > *mouse cursor moves towards "close window" X* > 5:12am 

[Zylinderkatze]

Welcome to my vernissage.

 

I call this one "the passage of time"

 

^{Because it took me a stinkin' hour to make it *throws coffee mug*}

[Zylinderkatze]

"It's a bird! It's a plane!"

 

Dude.. it's a couch.

 

^{Not sure if it is a too "oldschool, comfy" one for a resting area though.}

["JL" was too short]

Makes me think of a certain style of waiting room seating that I associate with furnishing from the 70s or 80s.  I've had a hell of a time actually finding any pictures of exactly what it resembled in my memory, but here's a picture that came up while I was looking.

All of which is to say that I don't think it looks too "comfy" at all.  On the contrary it looks exactly like what I would expect from an institution that wants to give you something more than a hard shelf to sit on, but is still buying everything prefabricated from an assembly line and "upholstered" in plastic and foam rubber.

[Zylinderkatze]

20 hours ago, jerrysheppy said:

plastic and foam rubber

that's pretty much what I was going for!

 

like.. you would sit, but not for longer than you absolutely must.

 

It'll be a nice dab of doomcute that I put in there basically "instinctively".. to give you a little breather after sort of an unfair ambush situation.

 

now I just need to finalize what happens once you advance from there.

 

I'm in the fabled, infamous "last 20%" of this map.. wrapping everything up and then playtesting it "start to finish" will definitely still take up several more days, going from experience.

 

But it's really good to be in the "end in sight" stretch ^^

[Zylinderkatze]

Roarrrrrrrr~rrr~rrrrrr~

 

I have a tendency to put this thing in dark, run down, inhospitable places.

 

Probably because no one wants it.

 

^{Poor little thing.}

[Zylinderkatze]

ZK! Did you break the switch again?

 

Geez.. I'm sorry.

 

^{shh.. I'm not actually sorry :>}

[Zylinderkatze]

On 4/28/2023 at 8:04 PM, Zylinderkatze said:

it's a couch

 

I made a highlight video if you want to see my process:

 

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1807070631 🛋