URE2020: What's one more month after 25 years? [DOOM 1 Vanilla - NOW LIVE]

[Omniarch]

Okay, so I played through E1M5. Its a good enough map, feels a little filler-y though.

 

Detailing, lighting, puzzles, sector machinery, all these things are damn good and creative, as per the norm. Resource balancing seems fair, there were no BS encounters, the incidental combat was enjoyable. Atmosphere is good, though there isn't much of a sense of place this time, due to the lack of clear landmarks and a general sense of aimlessness in the layout.

 

I also didn't find any bugs. All the complex sector machinery seemed to work as intended.

 

There is just one, teeny, tiny little problem: I CANNOT FIND THE DAMNED EXIT

 

The progression in this map is infuriating. I found myself running around endlessly, trying to figure out what switch did what, to understand what the map wanted me to do. I'm not sure if it is just me being a dumbass, but the way forward is not well communicated as far as I can see.

 

I'm not sure this issue is soluble, since confusion seems to be an inherent part of the map's design. But I want to let know anyway, just in case you find the information useful going forward.

[Lippeth]

2 minutes ago, Omniarch said:

I CANNOT FIND THE DAMNED EXIT

This stumped me for a good while as well. I might argue that it's a little too obtuse if I didn't enjoy figuring it out so much. I can't help but compare these maps to Hexen, and to me that's a great thing, but the maps have their own sort of logic that take a while to get acclimated to.

 

Warning: Heavy Spoiler (I can delete this if it gives too much away)

Spoiler

In the room down the long hallway behind the yellow skull door, if you walk to the other side of the computer consoles and look back the way you came, the right-most console of the left group of consoles will open the left door and also the left vertical tunnel. The exit is inside that tunnel. You'll also need to hit the face switch in the room with the tunnel to create steps and go back to the console to press it again.

 

[Omniarch]

1 minute ago, Lippeth said:

This stumped me for a good while as well. I might argue that it's a little too obtuse if I didn't enjoy figuring it out so much. I can't help but compare these maps to Hexen, and to me that's a great thing, but the maps have their own sort of logic that take a while to get acclimated to.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up. In absolute terms, there is nothing wrong with obtuse progression imo, and URE2020 definitely established itself as a set of puzzle maps, so I can't say I wasn't warned. I think this time was just a little bit too much for me. Maybe this map would work better in E1M9? Ach, it doesn't matter really. URE is art, and art can be baffling at times.

 

I'll admit, the fact that On the Hunt was just looping endlessly in the background didn't help. I think the midis you are making for the set will definitely elevate the experience, judging by your past work (Death Mask is one of the best pieces in the Plutonia midi pack, imo. Massacre Machine also rocks).

[Lippeth]

It's dangerous to go alone, take this:

URE2020_MIDI-Lippeth-beta01.zip

 

I'm still thinking about any changes I still want to make, but everything is "complete". If you have any feedback on the music I would love to hear it because it's just been Zylinderkatze and myself talking about it so far, and only broadly, so it's been sort of an echo chamber.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Lippeth

[Zylinderkatze]

6 hours ago, Omniarch said:

Fingers crossed!

Don't stress yourself! 

 

I'll just give myself a little more time- and even after I put out the "revision 3" it doesn't necessarily mean that that's the end xD

 

I don't think I'll actually publish it today (or tomorrow).. from how I see it right now, I'll probably pack everything up in a "release-like" state and put it up on this thread for downloading. Then everyone (who wants to) can download it and see whether the bugs they found have been squashed to their liking.. and a few days later I'll upload it to /idgames

 

Something like that.

[Omniarch]

3 hours ago, Lippeth said:

I'm still thinking about any changes I still want to make, but everything is "complete". If you have any feedback on the music I would love to hear it because it's just been Zylinderkatze and myself talking about it so far, and only broadly, so it's been sort of an echo chamber.

Ooo, yes, I'll be sure to give that a listen this evening. I know absolutely nothing about music, but I will do my best to give my honest opinion.

 

7 minutes ago, Zylinderkatze said:

Don't stress yourself! 

Alrighty, but I'll still try to play the last three maps in short order, maybe take another crack at E1M3 if time permits. Actually, now with the new Lippeth midi, I'll have to replay it!

[Omniarch]

Right, so I played through E1M6, and had a good time with it! Great, oppressive atmosphere, strong detailing original core concept. You are probably one of the only mappers capable of making such a repetitive style of progression interesting.

 

I did find a couple of bugs, though:

 

1) the sector 311 teleporter seems to be broken, probably because the inward-facing linedefs lack teleport actions.

 

2) line 2257 lacks a lower texturing, resulting in a minor HoM.

[Zylinderkatze]

On 3/15/2021 at 12:09 PM, Omniarch said:

I CANNOT FIND THE DAMNED EXIT

It seems as though all (or.. at least very close to "all") the things that come up as blocks, obtuse or weird.. are things I left widely unchanged from the 199X version xD

 

Yes as @Lippeth also "spoiled", you have to find the right console. The main pointer being the dead player bodies ("go where the bodies are" ^^;)

 

I had contemplated before to put an actual "EXIT" sign inside the right hatch.. and seeing how I think everyone so far had trouble finding the exit on E1M5, I think I'll do that. It's the least I can do, to make this at least a *little* less obtuse.

 

I know how much I very quickly start disliking a map where the path to the exit is unclear.. I don't want to add to the pool of such maps.

 

And again, thank you for your input!

[Zylinderkatze]

17 hours ago, Omniarch said:

1) the sector 311 teleporter seems to be broken, probably because the inward-facing linedefs lack teleport actions.

 

2) line 2257 lacks a lower texturing, resulting in a minor HoM.

 

I'm not at my "DOOM Computer" right now but I will check these out as soon as I get back to it!

[Omniarch]

Hmm, I've run into a rather bizarre issue when trying to load @Lippeth's new midis with URE2020. For some reason, when I load the file he provided alongside URE2020, the msuic worked fine but all the maps were replaced with their defaults.

 

So I decided to just plop the midis in the wad file and run it like usual. No luck. For some inexplicable reason, it just plays the default midis in-game, even though the menu music works as intended. It is dementing. I've tried running URE outside of Doom Launcher, just in case there was some configuration messing things up, no luck again. I've also verified on my desktop that the midis are the correct ones, and that they are labelled correctly as well.

 

I have no fucking clue what is going on here. Any ideas?

 

Edit: nevermind, I am a complete idiot. I'd forgotten to delete the vanilla MUS files. *facepalm*

Edited March 16, 2021 by Omniarch

[Zylinderkatze]

3 hours ago, Zylinderkatze said:

It's the least I can do, to make this at least a *little* less obtuse.

 

Well would you look at that..

^{Where'd that come from? ^^;}

[Zylinderkatze]

21 hours ago, Omniarch said:

1) the sector 311 teleporter seems to be broken, probably because the inward-facing linedefs lack teleport actions.

Wow.. good find!

 

That's from a "remodeling" I did towards the end of working on that map- seems I made the sector too small that the monsters walk into, so they can never physically pass the teleporting line. Fixed!

 

 

21 hours ago, Omniarch said:

2) line 2257 lacks a lower texturing

That is actually intentional because it's a "floor lowered out of view" sector for a "change floor" action (22). It should only cause the brown floor (CEIL5_2) of the two other sectors to fade / bleed into one another and hide the sunken sector in between.. I didn't know how else to accomplish the floor texture/flat change otherwise.

[Zylinderkatze]

Revision 3 is now live in the initial post!

 

GO GRAB IT NOW!

 

No. No excuses. NOW.

[Omniarch]

16 minutes ago, Zylinderkatze said:

Revision 3 is now live in the initial post!

 

GO GRAB IT NOW!

 

No. No excuses. NOW.

Yessir!

[Zylinderkatze]

Update!

 

I just.. updated the readme file that will go with the release. Just to be prepared ^^;

 

But that's about all I am going to do on this project for the rest of the day.

 

With the exception of one small thing that'll be an equally small surprise xD

[Lippeth]

6 hours ago, Omniarch said:

For some reason, when I load the file he provided alongside URE2020, the msuic worked fine but all the maps were replaced with their defaults.

That's still strange, all the wad replaces is episode one's music. What port do you use? I've confirmed that it works as intended in DOSBox, Crispy and GZDoom.

 

4 hours ago, Zylinderkatze said:

Revision 3 is now live in the initial post!

 

GO GRAB IT NOW!

 

No. No excuses. NOW.

EXCELLENT!

[Omniarch]

7 hours ago, Lippeth said:

That's still strange, all the wad replaces is episode one's music. What port do you use? I've confirmed that it works as intended in DOSBox, Crispy and GZDoom.

I was using Crispy Doom through Doom Launcher, if that helps at all.

[Lippeth]

Hmm. I just downloaded Doom Launcher 3.2.1.0 and ran Crispy Doom 5.10.0 with URE and the MIDI wads together with no issues. I first clicked on URE, then holding shift I clicked on the MIDI wad so they're both selected, then after clicking PLAY it asked me to select the main file that all data will be associated with, and I selected URE2020.

 

On another note, I'm not sure if I like that Doom Launcher copies and zips every file I add to it, seems like that could get out of hand. I usually use either ZDL or Doom Runner for playing multiple files at once, because I can sometimes get out of hand myself when stacking different wads and files on top of each other (being extra careful not to conflict data, of course).

 

Anyway, I can't seem to find a problem with playing both wads together, maybe someone else can test it out to see if it works.

[Zylinderkatze]

I found that in order to make it work (in Chocolate Doom in my case) that the music from the supplemental WAD would replace / override that of the WAD with the maps, they had to be loaded in a particular order.. but I am (once again) not at my Doom PC so I can't test it.

 

I'm not sure whether you already tried to switch the order in which you load the WADs, though. In that case forget what I said xD

[Zylinderkatze]

Good news, everyone!

 

As you might've noticed, there haven't been any updates from me. That's because I was secretly working behind the scenes to prepare everything for the release }:3

 

I am packing things up as I am writing this (or.. well.. have been, before I wrote this.. and will continue to, after I submit this post) and everything is actually done.

 

However, I wanted to give everyone some time to do some more testing.

 

Seeing how the weekend is coming up, I might give you that, as well ..totally selflessly, of course (..and maybe allow myself some time to add more polish to the ZIP content and prepare a nice figurative bow to put on top of it when I pack it up) :D

 

I'm currently testing out a bunch of stuff but it's part of the "small thing" I mentioned in a previous post and it's not quite ready yet.

 

You'll see what I mean when we get there.

[Zylinderkatze]

On 3/15/2021 at 12:09 PM, Omniarch said:

The progression in this map is infuriating. I found myself running around endlessly, trying to figure out what switch did what, to understand what the map wanted me to do. I'm not sure if it is just me being a dumbass, but the way forward is not well communicated as far as I can see.

 

Oh.. I never really replied to this.

 

It's true- there is a "two trigger progression gating" in the CONCRETE passages / hallways that is not communicated. That's kind of by design / intentionally. I did realize that it was a bit too obscure, which is why I made the concrete area smaller as a whole (between the 199X and the 2020 version).. but that's probably not enough. Because you don't see that there is progress, unless you pass back through the "big lift" area in which you arrived.

 

To make sure that you find it eventually, I had made it so that you can't leave that area until you crossed those two individual linedefs (one lowering blocking bars, one openeing the door behind them). But basically, this "explore the maze a bit and you'll be able to progress" isn't really demonstrated / depicted very well at all.

 

Here's the lines that open up the blockage:

^{Blocked area in the middle, one trigger on the left, one on the right.}

 

The one trigger on the right isn't even visually distinct, it's just a line. The one on the left is in a lighted, "silvery" gate-like bit.. so that might actually be a visual cue.. but I never pick it up, contextually. The blocked-off area doesn't have any silver, for example.

 

The "problem" is deeply rooted, though, because it stems from the motivation behind this setup: I wanted the player to have to go through at least part of the maze.. and I wanted it to be a little "mysterious" as to when the area opened up.

 

Now that I look at this problem through your eyes, I am starting to think that "mysterious" is just checkout out as "confusing" (and thus, frustrating).. and some visual cue is in order.

 

I don't really want to make it "a switch somewhere" either, though.

 

I do have a few ideas already.. but I'll toss them back and forth in my mind a bit more.

Edited March 20, 2021 by Zylinderkatze

[Omniarch]

2 minutes ago, Zylinderkatze said:

The "problem" is deeply rooted, though, because it stems from the motivation behind this setup: I wanted the player to have to go through at least part of the maze.. and I wanted it to be a little "mysterious" as to when the area opened up.

 

Now that I look at this problem through your eyes, I am starting to think that "mysterious" is just checkout out as "confusing" (and thus, frustrating).. and some visual cue is in order.

 

I don't really want to make it "a switch somewhere" either, though.

 

I do have a few ideas already.. but I'll toss them back and forth in my mind a bit more.

Frankly, I don't think this part is too much of an issue. The thing that really irked me was the overly-obscure exit, but since you resolved that issue, I don't think redesigning anything else about the map is strictly necessary. Obscure progression is fine, so long as there is decent payoff, which I think there now is.

[Omniarch]

Alright, so I finally got around to playing E1M7.

 

This one is quite similar to E1M5 in many ways, mainly in its non-linear, somewhat obtuse progression and general lack of landmarks. This is not a bad thing, mind you. The labyrinth style is valid enough, one that you are particularly good at with your creative puzzles and devious layouts.

 

The secrets this time around were spot on, not too difficult but not too obtuse either. I managed to get all thirteen of them, along with nearly all the kills (more on that later).

 

I've commented on the virtues of this set so many times that repeating my usual praise here would be redundant. Suffice to say, this map was in line with my expectations.

 

The thing which really elevated the experience this time around was the new soundtrack, which complemented the map perfectly. Superb work @Lippeth as always!

 

I did find a couple of minor bugs:

 

1) sector 922 can fail to lower, potentially trapping the player in sector 261.

 

2) the sector 1289 monster teleporter doesn't work properly for some reason, making 100% kills impossible.

 

I also have a couple of minor-ish complaints:

 

1) the north-east moving floor staircase is utter bullshit. I'd strongly advise removing it completely. There is no benefit to making the player wait endlessly on damaging floors.

 

2) the fight in the large eastern room is far too grindy on UV. There are just too many cacos and barons for it to be fun in any way. I'm not even sure its possible to kill everything in that room at all if you haven't first found the plasma secret, or at least the chaingun. I'd recommend toning it down a bit.

 

3) there are far too many doors. I'll admit, this one is a little petty, but having to constantly stop and open doors every five seconds did start to get a little old, especially in the western half of the map.

 

One last observation: are some of the secrets (plasma, RL etc) supposed to be all but mandatory on UV? I just can't see the average player beating some of the tougher fights with just the SG. I'm not sure there is even enough ammo for it on the map for you to kill all the monsters that directly obstruct progression, let alone the optional ones. For example, I doubt the sector 1239 encounter is consistently beatable with just the SG, especially given how stingy the map is on ammo on UV. I got through it by burning what remained of my plasma ammo (some of which was found in a different non-tagged secret), but I pity the poor soul who goes at it with just the SG or CG.

 

The above is not really a criticism. I personally think that if someone has made it this far into URE it is fair to expect them to be aware of their surroundings and willing to die multiple times to learn how to progress. I just want to know if this is intentional.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Omniarch

[Final Verdict]

Happy to see your project is almost out @Zylinderkatze.

 

I had to take a medical hiatus for a few months so I'm only now getting back to this. I never really got to try this out back when you were making the maps. I will definitely get around to it though, right now I'm still recovering so I have to take it easy for awhile.

 

Glad to see you reached the finish line with this project. Best of luck.

[Zylinderkatze]

Hello hello!

 

Just a quick update: I'm still among the living, nothing happened, I've just been rather busy and during the sparce spare time that I did have, I wasn't feeling particularly doomy.

 

That said, thank you so much for your in-depth analysis and comments on M7, @Omniarch! I will get into it.. probably tomorrow :)

 

Also, welcome (back), @Final Verdict.. great to hear from you and I hope you will fully recover swiftly. Best wishes to you!

 

Aright.. now I am back to further do things that are not Doom.

 

Take care!

[Zylinderkatze]

On 3/23/2021 at 9:16 AM, Omniarch said:

sector 922 can fail to lower, potentially trapping the player in sector 261

Added the same action as the Walk action on the lines to enter the sector.. to LineDef 3270 (as an "S1") so a trapped player trying all walls will still be able to lower the switch outcrop. Also split 3270 so that the action can't be triggered from the outside.. it's only on the half that faces away from the surrounding passage. (Edit: Thank you for finding this.. it always lowered for me so I didn't even think to stress-test it.)

 

On 3/23/2021 at 9:16 AM, Omniarch said:

the sector 1289 monster teleporter doesn't work properly for some reason, making 100% kills impossible

Adjusted the sector that the monsters walk over into, to make it big enough for them to actually walk into it.. kind of the same problem I also had in one of the M6 areas. Thanks for finding this!

 

On 3/23/2021 at 9:16 AM, Omniarch said:

There is no benefit to making the player wait endlessly on damaging floors.

Actually, the idea was kind of that "having to go back to the main room" was a punishment of sorts.. which made sense in my 199X mind. But this walkback in particular is one you have to take, so that doesn't even make sense. There is a way to not take damage when you stand on the edge of the sector adjacent to the moving floors.. but that doesn't change the fact that this relic from 199X is no fun to sit through, even if the floor wasn't damaging. I'll think of something! (Edit: I remember what the point of "going back is a punishment" was: that's why there are stimpacks.. on the first pass through, you get reimbursed for the damage. on the second run, you better know the "edge stepping trick" or end up damaged.. but I'll still think of something to make this more fun / less tedious) 

 

On 3/23/2021 at 9:16 AM, Omniarch said:

the fight in the large eastern room is far too grindy on UV.

Good point. I think from 199X until now, I added a few enemies.. without taking any out. So it probably did get a bit too "look how many monsters there are! uwu" in the end. I will cycle through the difficulties in things view and weed out a little xD

 

On 3/23/2021 at 9:16 AM, Omniarch said:

there are far too many doors.

But.. but..

 

Maybe I can find a solution for that.. maybe have a few of them stay open or something ^^; I know that a few 2-door sections are actually to gate in a bit of overflow risk.. but I'll mull this over a little and get back to you xD

 

On 3/23/2021 at 9:16 AM, Omniarch said:

I just want to know if this is intentional.

"yes and no" hangs up

 

Okay.. ehrm.. to be fair, yes. Which kind of makes it a moot point to make them secrets, I suppose, since you need most weapons. 

 

My problem was / is, that I spread little portions of various ammo throughout the map because I didn't know better. Instead of having a set amount of ammo for a "secret weapon".. on the same area as the weapon.. and only have standard ammo (clips and shells) in the rest of the map. 

 

That's a concept I didn't quite grasp.. and also still didin't fully integrate in the 2020 version. 

 

Maybe I can still push around a few ammo things. I'll look at that when I do the monster difficulty cycling mentioned above xD

Edited March 27, 2021 by Zylinderkatze

[Omniarch]

9 minutes ago, Zylinderkatze said:

But.. but..

 

Maybe I can find a solution for that.. maybe have a few of them stay open or something ^^; I know that a few 2-door sections are actually to gate in a bit of overflow risk.. but I'll mull this over a little and get back to you xD

Heh, I wouldn't worry about it, honestly. That was a very petty complaint on my part. Fell free to ignore me from the past ;)

 

11 minutes ago, Zylinderkatze said:

"yes and no" hangs up

 

Okay.. ehrm.. to be fair, yes. Which kind of makes it a moot point to make them secrets, I suppose, since you need most weapons. 

 

My problem was / is, that I spread little portions of various ammo throughout the map because I didn't know better. Instead of having a set amount of ammo for a "secret weapon".. on the same area as the weapon.. and only have standard ammo (clips and shells) in the rest of the map. 

 

That's a concept I didn't quite grasp.. and also still didin't fully integrate in the 2020 version. 

 

Maybe I can still push around a few ammo things. I'll look at that when I do the monster difficulty cycling mentioned above xD

Honestly I didn't find ammo to be too much of an issue so long as I kept an eye out for secrets. Given that this is the penultimate map of a hitherto rather tricksy set, this kind of thing really isn't an issue. I think you can indulge yourself a bit at this stage without alienating anyone who has already come this far. After all, we true^tm URE fans are all here to experience your fascinating outsider art, warts and all ;)

[Zylinderkatze]

An Update? In this economy?

 

I added the E1M7 bug list to the topic post! They are already fixed but the fixed version isn't "compiled" yet ^^;

 

More soon!

 

Oh! someone here who's actually an old-oldschool Doom person? Running stuff in DOS / DOSBox? I might need someone to test something *ominous music plays*

[Lippeth]

I use DOSBox all the time, I'd be happy to test something out.

[Lippeth]

Found a place to get stuck in on E1M2 at the very beginning of the map and recorded a demo in choco doom, it was oddly difficult to reproduce after stumbling on it the first time.

stuck.zip