Is it "Vanilla compliant" to look up and down with those arrow buttons?

[Kute]

I can't remember. I know mouselook up and down is a nono for being a leet oldskool player, but was awkwardly looking up and down in vanilla?

[EvilNed]

No, it was not. But it turned up in Heretic shortly thereafter.

[P41R47]

2 minutes ago, Kute said:

I can't remember. I know mouselook up and down is a nono for being a leet oldskool player, but was awkwardly looking up and down in vanilla?

Doom never had look up or down mechanics.

It was Heretic that first introduce it on the Doom Engine.

 

So no, unless you use a source port that allow looking up and down, you can't do it on the original game.

[Kute]

Was it in Doom 2? God I could swear I remember looking up and down as a kid. But memory plays tricks on you.

[Jello]

5 minutes ago, Kute said:

Was it in Doom 2? God I could swear I remember looking up and down as a kid. But memory plays tricks on you.

Nope, it was not available in any early/vanilla iteration of Doom. That includes Doom 1 & 2, Final Doom, PS Doom, Doom 64, what have you.

[kaleb.]

only in unofficial source ports is there looking up and down, really only non-id doom engine games had it officially 

[Maes]

37 minutes ago, Jello said:

 Doom 64

Maybe I'm skewed from playing the old Absolution remake, but wasn't freelook one of the -many- extra goodies that Doom 64 had?

[Skeletonpatch]

1 hour ago, Maes said:

Maybe I'm skewed from playing the old Absolution remake, but wasn't freelook one of the -many- extra goodies that Doom 64 had?

 

No, Doom 64 didn't have freelook.

 

As has already been said, freelook wasn't introduced to the Doom engine until Heretic, later on Hexen and Strife carried the freelook torch. An official Doom game would not have freelook until Doom 3.

[Kore]

The view goes up and down a little when you shoot guns in doom64. Although you can't freelook because it breaks certain effects. I thought this thread was going to be about lack of autoaim/freelook being the same as allowing jump in doom maps.

 

Edited January 31, 2021 by Kore

[Murdoch]

Yes looking up and down was never in the original games. In context (at least how I have read it), "vanilla compliant" usually refers to mapping limitations ie: if you run this map in doom.exe or doom2.exe it should work and will not trigger any of the infamous bugs like visplanes being exceeded.

 

To me looking up and down does not confer a significant enough advantage to be concerned about it. Jumping would be another matter though as that could let you sequence break.

Edited February 1, 2021 by Murdoch

[Jello]

Well, being able to look up and down can cause sequence breaking as well, most notably by allowing you to shoot switches that you would have otherwise had to progress through the level to get to an area equal in height with the switch to shoot it. It's not as sequence breaking in general as jumping over low walls, especially now that most user made content accepts that people use mouselook, but it can be sequence breaking from a pure vanilla standpoint.

 

But yeah, vanilla compliant means that the map doesn't exceed any limitations of the original engine. Notably size, visplanes, entity counts, and doesn't add any complex actions that wouldn't be supported by vanilla. Such as having to jump, or aim up or down to accomplish a task. So yes, mouselook isn't as big of a deal, but it can certainly be sequence breaking.

[Kore]

Looking up and down allows you to hit some monsters that you wouldn't be able to otherwise. Particularly monsters far away, because autoaim stops working at certain range. There's also the issue with autoaim forcing you to hit the closest monster. You'll notice it when you try to hit a monster on a ledge but there's another monster below in front. Yeah, it's not that big of a deal like jumping is, but it's still an advantage, and it can trivialize some things.

[Kute]

Yea no, I was absolutely curious for the sake of making something that was annoying me a whole lot easier. So I appreciate the heads-up guys.

 

God I have a crystal clear memory of using annoyingly slow and cumbersome look up/down as a kid, but you guys are right, it would have trashed a ton of aiming puzzles - there's no way I'm remembering that right. Or maybe I'm remembering a port in like 2004 or something. Who knows. Memory is wack. At a certain point, I believe you're just remembering the memory of the memory.

[Murdoch]

12 minutes ago, Kute said:

Yea no, I was absolutely curious for the sake of making something that was annoying me a whole lot easier. So I appreciate the heads-up guys.

 

God I have a crystal clear memory of using annoyingly slow and cumbersome look up/down as a kid, but you guys are right, it would have trashed a ton of aiming puzzles - there's no way I'm remembering that right. Or maybe I'm remembering a port in like 2004 or something. Who knows. Memory is wack. At a certain point, I believe you're just remembering the memory of the memory.

 

Your description sounds vaguely like the original implementation of looking in Duke3D. Or it could be something else. I am vaguely remembering another FPS game with clunky look mechanics but God knows what it was. Memory is a funny, unreliable thing and it's easy for little details to get jumbled with time.

 

1 hour ago, Jello said:

Well, being able to look up and down can cause sequence breaking as well, most notably by allowing you to shoot switches that you would have otherwise had to progress through the level to get to an area equal in height with the switch to shoot it

 

Yes true in theory.

Edited February 1, 2021 by Murdoch