Why do people get so offended by player's who decide to use freelook?

[Steve D]

I'm not a purist, even though I play without freelook. However, I also never play with infinite height on, at least, not voluntarily.

 

I'm personally more comfortable with auto-aim. It's no more complicated than that. I do sometimes regret my focus when presented with an Archie under a cloud of Cacos drawing my fire to them. So irritating. ;D

 

The first person to play one of my maps with freelook was Suitepee. He used freelook to absolutely rubbish my sniper setup in the outdoor area of Ancalagon, Map 23 in Realm of Chaos. Until then, I hadn't realized freelook could be so advantageous, and I was a little upset. Nonetheless, people can play any way they want. I'm not the Doom Dictator. ;D

 

Lots of people have mentioned the potential problems arising from freelook being used against shootable switches. Well, as Dobu demonstrated in a recent map, you can conquer that problem by covering your shootable switch with a switch-activated lift. This gives the player a solid clue that the switch needs to be shot, and prevents the freelook player from getting an early blast on it. Problem solved. ;)

[holaareola]

I understand the annoyance from the MAPINFO flatlook-forced player more than the mapper whose pure intentions are being ignored. I imagine especially if you came from other FPS games, y-lock must feel weird and restrictive. Blowing yourself up on a low wall as Doom locks onto the barely-visible head of the zombie guy below you instead of the PE directly facing you a little further away is bloody annoying. But as long as the mapper indicates it's the case, there're plenty of other levels to choose from.

 

As for me, I enjoy both. In GZDoom I freelook since I only GZDoom the map requires it. For everything else, flatlook.

 

4 hours ago, Bridgeburner56 said:

I'd argue that freelook and auto aim are actually fairly balanced in terms of which one is "easier" to use (supported by anecdotal evidence watching very good players use both to play hard maps). Yes freelook allows for precision aiming that autoaim does not, but it requires exactly that. You need to aim, which takes time and APM. While the assistance given by autoaim isn't egregious, it still takes care of the last 5% of the player needing to center on their target. This is more important in fast hard fights where players need to make snap decisions and quick movements, especially if they are switching between targets at different heights. The saving on APM that having autoaim gives you does make a difference.
I'm just talking purely closeish combat here, I do agree that freelook gives an advantage when navigating areas with a lot of verticality and the fact that autoaim has a range limit makes freelook advantageous in very large areas with distant monsters.

I don't think aim is nearly as taxing in Doom as most FPS games. The hitboxes are enormous, the enemies are slow. And Doom's APM ceiling is so undemandingly low it's hard to see how it's a useful concept here. It's in WHICH actions that the skill dwells, not how many.

 

I find freelook makes things easier. On top of the reasons you gave, the player gets an advantage in combat with flyers -- especially being able to shoot under them. Doom's autoaim going for an undesired target happens quite a bit anyway, but being able to post a rocket over to that Archvile straight ahead instead of e.g. blowing yourself to bits on the caco above you is a huge advantage.

Edited February 11, 2021 by holaareola

[dmslr]

18 minutes ago, Steve D said:

as Dobu demonstrated in a recent map, you can conquer that problem by covering your shootable switch with a switch-activated lift. This gives the player a solid clue that the switch needs to be shot, and prevents the freelook player from getting an early blast on it. Problem solved. ;)

Or you can hide the switch deeply into the wall so a player have to be at the same height as the switch in order to hit it. I remember Nicolas Monti loves doing this.

Edited February 11, 2021 by dmslr

[seed]

8 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

From rubberbanding in racing games

 

Oh yes, about this, the AI in Black Box's first three NFS games was just insane.

 

UG1 had events where, if certain opponents passed you, it was guaranteed that you lost the race - pray the AI crashes in traffic at some point, otherwise just restart if they pass you, it's done.

 

This right here is Blacklist #3 Ronnie from MW2005 rubberbanding after it crashed somewhere during the first lap - by the end of the race it was already pressuring the player again.

 

 

>709 km/h.

 

Good luck with that. Unbelievable how bad the AI drives otherwise - if you use mods to disable Catch Up, you can leave them into dust even with stock cars. They were overly dependent on certain upgrades that really made it go nuts, specifically Turbo/Supercharger, if you ain't got one of those even on Hard they're more than manageable.

 

Carbon was the first to have easier AI, but had some balancing issues in the form of OP cars instead - hard difficulty you seek? Sure, game gives you up to four Corvette drivers out of a grand total of 8 opponents (or more in certain events with 19 AI opponents) :p . For reference, the Corvette has too powerful acceleration and is too stable for its class in this game, it was even restricted on various servers when playing online as a result, because it was cheap.

Edited February 11, 2021 by seed

[dei_eldren]

It's like people who hate pineapple on pizza and then come up with reasons why it'd somehow be objectivelly wrong, haha.  Some people are just precious - and i've been in many things...later i realized it was generally just silly notions i had adopted.  Arguments can be made both ways of course, but since Clippy isn't using it to advantage, especially in some competitions or whatever, maybe it's not about arguments but how he wants to play?  i definetely sympathize with the idea of admiring the scenery and the layout.

 

As for mappers who've finetuned their levels... i'm sure it doesn't diminish anyone's appreciation of your hard work (which IS appreciated),  Even if it was misused, it wouldn't be any different from using cheatcodes or whatever (and in Clippy's case it isn't even close to that, so...)

 

(i never use freelook, i don't even know how i'd comfortably make use of it with the way i'm now used to controlling.)

[DRM-MAN]

I can really only play with it on now days , i've been spoiled by most fps games in the last two decades. That being said, it can sequence break certain moments, like the icon of sin, but that's really up to you.

Now in terms of jumping, that's a discussion for another day.

Edited February 11, 2021 by DRMman

[leodoom85]

12 minutes ago, DRMman said:

Now in terms of jumping, that's a discussion for another day.

Probably that topic was already touched. I actually wonder who can be offended by freelook.

 

Seriously, people need to stop bitching over such things. 

 

1 hour ago, dei_eldren said:

never use freelook, i don't even know how i'd comfortably make use of it with the way i'm now used to controlling.

Been used to controllers in SNES and PSX with Doom myself in the past. And wouldn't be an issue if I play PC Doom with a controller either...

[Cruduxy Pegg]

Freelook got nothing on the bullshit jumping + no infinite height allows. It isn't even from possible map breaking. You can do all kinds of stupid shit like jump boost off monster, rocket jump and get into otherwise impassable terrain. You pretty much completely flip the game's movement system to your advantage. Freelook got nothing on the advantages jump gives.

 

You can still enable autoaim with freelook. No shooting under cacos for you. The two are completely independent settings. All you are left is breaking some switches or shooting things you can't usually shoot earlier. both extremely rare and one of them can be completely solved by mapper as already mentioned in this thread. and the unfixable one has 0% impact on the majority of mapsets past a certain skill level. unless you want to fall asleep wasting time on sentries.

[Samuel Slayer]

I personally don't care. I know it's common so I try to design levels with vanilla & jumping in mind. If someone wants to break my level, it's their business. As long as they're having fun with my work.

[Gez]

the only way to play doom is v1.0 on a 386, with arrow keys to turn and mouse to move. anything else is heresy.

 

 

 

i don't want to hear about those fancy newfangled "Doom II" or "v1.9" wtf is that shit, all "fixing bugs" or "adding features" like do people really need "blazing doors" whatever that means? was demon infighting really a "bug" that "needed fixing"? and bloating the game with all these pointless extra monsters...

[Retro Dino]

I ALWAYS use freelook. I'm just so used to it now. I try to take it off every once and awhile though. I've never seen anyone actually get offended though, who's out here getting offended by that??

EDIT: I get pissed when people jump though. Jumping is bs. Unless I say to jump, don't jump.

Edited February 11, 2021 by Retro Dino
Stamp on the ground, jump, jump, jump, jump.

[Clippy]

12 minutes ago, Retro Dino said:

I ALWAYS use freelook. I'm just so used to it now. I try to take it off every once and awhile though. I've never seen anyone actually get offended though, who's out here getting offended by that??

EDIT: I get pissed when people jump though. Jumping is bs. Unless I say to jump, don't jump.

 

I hate jumping / crouching too and avoid maps that make me want to do these things. 

 

But yeah some random people accused me of disrespect for using freelook and all that jazz, even though I took time to play and share their maps

 

Oh wells

[The Lone Wolf]

The reason I don't use Freelook is Doom looks kinda ugly and loses it charm for me when I am using it. For example, Sprites are 2D but game itself is 3D so when I am above of entities They disappear below me and it is when I lose my interest of keep playing the wad. But if I am playing a gameplay mod, of course I prefer to use it.

[Retro Dino]

15 minutes ago, Clippy said:

 

I hate jumping / crouching too and avoid maps that make me want to do these things. 

 

But yeah some random people accused me of disrespect for using freelook and all that jazz, even though I took time to play and share their maps

 

Oh wells

LOL I was actually going to tag you in this. In NUKAGE (The one WAD of mine you played) you are supposed to jump. I forgot to tell you! It was so painful looking at you look up at that ammo and go "Oh man, I really need that" LOL! I was like "Nooo! Jump up there and grab it!" but later you assumed you had to jump and i'm glad you did lol. That's crazy though, if someone wants to use freelook let them! 

[Cynical]

21 hours ago, Major Arlene said:

never once has being able to look at a ceiling changed the way I've played a map.

My guess is you haven't played a lot of maps, then (or, more likely, it has and you didn't realize it).  Putting enemies high or low enough that they can't be shot from certain angles easily is a time-tested design technique.

[fraggle]

I fully support everyone's right to play Doom however they want and that's never going to change.

 

That said, some levels are designed without freelook in mind. Doom II MAP30 is the canonical example because the whole challenge of the level revolves around your own inability to aim downwards. Also, sometimes level authors specifically request that players disable freelook and jumping when playing, and I think it's worth at least considering those requests when playing such levels. For example:

 

 

[Linuxmaster1992]

I think mouselook is fine, and isn't cheating, as long as autoaim is still enabled. With autoaim enabled, you can't do anything you wouldn't be able to do in vanilla, except look at some neat things :)

[ketmar]

considering that SIGIL kicks my ass even with a freelook, i think i need some stronger cheats then...

[Stupid Bunny]

I never used to like using freelook, but lately I’ve tried it a bit testing my own maps and I have to say I kind of like it, at least with restricted angles. I can’t think of anything I’ve put in any of my maps that freelook would break and so I don’t give a whit if someone uses it. And if I do, then well I’ll just say in the text file that freelook is a sequence breaker. But if I do that then I won’t get any Clippy video of that map so ;-;

 

Why might some people be offended? For the same reason people say (G)ZDoom maps suck, they only have in mind the worst offenders they’ve encountered and assume everyone who plays with freelook is a moron who doesn’t know how to read instructions, based on the one playtester they met who didn’t see “Don’t Use Freelook” in the .TXT and came back with a smug complaint about “1/5 stupid map, skipped the whole thing by shooting that switch up on that ledge I’m clearly not supposed to see until the very end”

Edited February 11, 2021 by StupidBunny

[seed]

2 hours ago, ketmar said:

considering that SIGIL kicks my ass even with a freelook, i think i need some stronger cheats then...

 

Needs something less... penetrable :p .

[Doom_Dude]

12 hours ago, NoXion said:

I always play classic Doom with freelook enabled and autoaim disabled. Fuck you computer, I'm not wearing a neck brace and I don't need your pity.

 

I've honestly never had this setup "break" any map I've played, at least not in any way that I've noticed. The only example I can recall is that it makes the Icon of Sin fight a touch easier, but that doesn't matter in my opinion because the classic Icon is a rubbish boss encounter anyway, and making it slightly less tedious means I can get it out of the way more quickly.

 

To be fair though, nobody's ever given me shit about my gameplay choices. Maybe the OP needs to find a less toxic place to hang out.

 

Pretty much this.

 

I've played Doom, Doom 2, Final Doom, and whatever wads back in the 90's and only used the keyboard. It's like vinyl, I'm not going back there man. lol

 

These days I have freelook on and auto aim off. I'm running amok, aiming up at the sky, falling in holes and shit and it's fun as hell. ;) :P

 

As for jumping and crouching, I don't bother with that unless it's actually required.

Edited February 11, 2021 by Doom_Dude

[Major Arlene]

4 hours ago, Cynical said:

My guess is you haven't played a lot of maps, then (or, more likely, it has and you didn't realize it).  Putting enemies high or low enough that they can't be shot from certain angles easily is a time-tested design technique.

I used to run an /idgames wad review series that was about 700-some parts long. While I agree it can make life fairly easier, if you're relying on the height of a monster on an a ledge that would be unreachable without freelook, you may want to reconsider your combat design. 

[mArt1And00m3r11339]

People are morons for being offended by someone who uses vertical mouse aiming. I disable auto aim when using free look because auto aim wouldn't then be needed. The only instance when I disable free look is if I am playing a WAD with Boom because there, you can't disable auto aim. You also can't disable infinite heights. 

[rehelekretep]

because its sick and wrong

[Grain of Salt]

Quote

Why do people grr when i use freelook

 

You must not use freelook

 

Quote

But it's okay for me to use freelook, right?

 

No, actually you must not use freelook

 

Quote

subjective

 

Lifetime imprisonment

[Rei is now real]

28 minutes ago, Grain of Salt said:

 

You must not use freelook

 

 

No, actually you must not use freelook

 

 

Lifetime imprisonment

ill go to prison, then.

[Nine Inch Heels]

1 hour ago, Major Arlene said:

I used to run an /idgames wad review series that was about 700-some parts long. While I agree it can make life fairly easier, if you're relying on the height of a monster on an a ledge that would be unreachable without freelook, you may want to reconsider your combat design. 

What's the harm in placing monsters such that the player can't reach them for some length of time? Nobody here is talking about making something impossible to reach for the entirety of a run. It's perfectly valid to perch something outside of the player's range, in some way shape or form, as long as it's possible to eliminate these monsters later, for example because they teleport somewhere else, get crushed, or the player is able to reach them from somewhere else - and these methods have been employed over the years several times already, not just by a handful of maps, for that matter... One such map that comes to mind is Xaser's 50shadesofgreytall contribution (perched cacos that get crushed), another one would be dimensions map 31 (perched revs that teleport into range of the player later)...

 

Here's the problem: If someone were to play such a setup for the first ever time, provided enough ammunition as well as freelook enabled, they're perhaps gonna be sitting there with a sour face while they chip away from a distance until everything's dead, while they completely rob them themselves of the realization that the monsters would be much more convenient to take out at a later point in time... That's why it's by no means an unreasonable suggestion to make that players should give that respective map a shot with the settings it has been designed for... And I'm not talking about the "REEEE UR n0 TrU DeWMuR" kind of "suggestion", mind.

 

Most mappers who have at least a slight clue about what they're doing will most likely make sure that players can get rid of these supposedly unreachable threats eventually, unless of course the map is just not meant to be maxable (which is also valid, but should be stated from my point of view) and I wouldn't be surprised at all if some players opted to take advantage of freelook instead of letting the map do its thing...

 

On that note, as much as I disagree with cynical on certain subjects: Have you even played anything he made? It seems pretty daunting to me to tell someone who made a map as decent as impure offering that they may or may not need to reconsider their combat design.. Talking about "bad design" while going under the assumption that the monsters would be impossible to reach forever is throwing the baby out with the bathwater...

[Grain of Salt]

39 minutes ago, HEVSoldier_nova said:

ill go to prison, then.

 

Cursed be ye, say I

[Eric Claus]

7 hours ago, fraggle said:

I fully support everyone's right to play Doom however they want and that's never going to change.

 

That said, some levels are designed without freelook in mind. Doom II MAP30 is the canonical example because the whole challenge of the level revolves around your own inability to aim downwards. Also, sometimes level authors specifically request that players disable freelook and jumping when playing, and I think it's worth at least considering those requests when playing such levels. For example:

 

 

Funny enough I swear the footage on the Romero games website shows Project Brutality gameplay on it when showing off Sigil ha. 

[Lucky_Edie]

What matters is how you feel. If these comments are getting to you, why is that?