how does everyone feel about fighting mid-tier enemies with a regular shotgun

[roadworx]

say you're playing a map and you just get a normal ol' shotgun at the start instead of the ssg, and you have to fight mid-tier enemies like hell knights and cacodemons for a little while before upgrading. is that a major turn-off for you or is it something that you don't mind?

Edited February 14, 2021 by roadworx

[seed]

Not minding that at all, it's good for a start, unless I have to kill many of them and I also do not get any other weapons as alternative, or a Berserk.

[Murdoch]

If I feel comfortable enough to use the environment to my advantage, I will often use less powerful weapons to save ammo, not just the shotgun.

[The_MártonJános]

Also depends on the tactic you need to use. Mid-distance the regular shotty "pierces" way more efficiently than the spread you get with SSG while essentially wasting one, if not both shells.

Edited February 14, 2021 by Cell

[Stupid Bunny]

I’ve got a map I finished recently where different mappers expressed different feelings about starting with only a shotgun against mostly revenants. I decided to keep it in based on that some do like it and also that I myself enjoy it in some maps, it can make the opening of the map more nail-biting if the player is given a stiff but not unfair disadvantage in arms, and left to quickly seek more firepower and ammo elsewhere before they are overwhelmed.

 

The main thing as usual is to keep the fights interesting, and to try and be mindful when the gimmick might begin to overstay its welcome.

[Snarboo]

I use a combo of the shotgun and chaingun* more than the super shotgun these days, so it doesn't really bother me. I think my absolute limit might be an Arch Vile vs that combo, but YMMV.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

*On that note, I wish more mappers would dole out chaingun ammo a little more liberally. :V

 

Edited February 14, 2021 by Snarboo

[Snark]

Shotgunning two hell knights in a small room with pillars makes me hard.

Shotgunning a baron in a corridor makes me flaccid.

[Cruduxy Pegg]

I don't care as long as long as it is an engaging fight. if I am fighting 3 barons across a bridge with the shotgun I'll either run past them or consider finding another wad (if there is no other route).

[valkiriforce]

I've given my thoughts on this before:

 

[Lippeth]

I remember a thread where a common complaint with Heretic was that the enemies were too spongy. I also recall someone watching me fight a room full of cacos and hell knights with a shotgun and their comment was that they don't like games where it takes that many shots to kill something. It's all relative I suppose.

 

For me, it depends on the level layout and what the purpose is for having the mid tier enemies around before a better weapon is available. If they're forcing me to move around a dangerous terrain, are blocking a good item, or are bullying me in a room with weaker enemies then it can be really engaging and rewarding. If they're just there to pad out the map then it can be tedious, but not always. I guess it really just depends on how it all works together.

[Stupid Bunny]

  On 2/14/2021 at 10:58 PM, Snark said:

Shotgunning two hell knights in a small room with pillars makes me hard.

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How about two hell knights in a small room with a pillar that is also a donut-type moving floor?  Because if that turns you on then I have the map for you

[Mr. Freeze]

IF I HAVE THE SHOTGUN DEMONS ARE NOT GONNA HAVE FUN 

 

it's fine 

[Snark]

  On 2/14/2021 at 11:34 PM, StupidBunny said:

 

How about two hell knights in a small room with a pillar that is also a donut-type moving floor?  Because if that turns you on then I have the map for you

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Sounds groovy, hit me baby. It's Valentines Day after all

[P41R47]

  On 2/14/2021 at 10:04 PM, roadworx said:

say you're playing a map and you just get a normal ol' shotgun at the start instead of the ssg, and you have to fight mid-tier enemies like hell knights and cacodemons for a little while before upgrading. is that a major turn-off for you or is it something that you don't mind?

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Basically, you are describing most of Ultimate Doom experience after around the middle of episode 2.

So people get use to flirting with cacodemons and sending hot piercing missiles to the barons long long ago

Edited February 15, 2021 by P41R47

[Stupid Bunny]

  On 2/15/2021 at 12:20 AM, Snark said:

Sounds groovy, hit me baby. It's Valentines Day after all

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It has been DM'd to you.  Let the Valentine's Day love flow

[VanaheimRanger]

Id' rather not.

[Macross+]

I'll take the boomstick than the measly pistol anyday.

[Snark]

  On 2/15/2021 at 12:32 AM, StupidBunny said:

 

It has been DM'd to you.  Let the Valentine's Day love flow

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Cheers, I'll find the lube and give it a twirl.

[mrthejoshmon]

Personally I think some people do need a good standard shotgun map so they can stop crutching on the SSG and can get to appreciating weapons like the Plasma Rifle.

[Noiser]

  On 2/14/2021 at 10:04 PM, roadworx said:

say you're playing a map and you just get a normal ol' shotgun at the start instead of the ssg, and you have to fight mid-tier enemies like hell knights and cacodemons for a little while before upgrading. is that a major turn-off for you or is it something that you don't mind?

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I don't like it tbh. Killing mid-tiers with a regular shotgun\chaingun is not more difficult, just more tedious. It's even worse when it's a caco or a hell knight since their projectiles are very easy to dodge - In the end you will just lose my time instead of offering a good challenge. Of course, there are a few exceptions to this, but usually I find it more pointless then anything else. 

Edited February 15, 2021 by Noiser

[Egg Boy]

I’d say there are instances where fighting a mid tier with the shotgun is much different from the ssg, such as the arachnotron. In general I don’t like forcing the player to fight more than 5 or so mid tiers without the ssg, rocket launcher or plasma rifle. Though I’d rather give the player the latter 2 first instead of the ssg which is ridiculously over powered in many scenarios.

[maxmanium]

If it's just a couple, not too big of a deal. More than that and it's a pain. This is excusable if you either want to encourage infighting or want to guide the player to explore and find the SSG or rocket launcher.

[TuomasGaming]

I think fighting a bunch of Barons of Hell, or Cacodemons with a shotgun, is too slow for my liking. It doesn't feel satisfying to kill a strong demon, with a weak weapon.

[Doom_Dude]

I don't have a problem with it myself.

[DooM Bear]

It’s alright... so long as it doesn’t become a slog :-P

 

Will happily deal with a few mid-tier enemies at a time but if I have to shotgun 10 barons before I can get past them that gets tedious.

 

Caco’s are a bit different as am happy to deal with caco clouds with just the shotgun but, again, if they are blocking the way / all crammed in a small area then that can be bad.

 

Oh also ammo is a major factor too! If I have plenty of ammo lying around then i’m happy to shotgun pretty much everything and anything in the map :-) however, If it’s like E4M1 and I have to punch out the last baron or two with a non-berserked fist... well I’m probably gonna iddqd that or not worry with 100% kills :-P

[Zedonk]

  On 2/14/2021 at 10:04 PM, roadworx said:

say you're playing a map and you just get a normal ol' shotgun at the start instead of the ssg, and you have to fight mid-tier enemies like hell knights and cacodemons for a little while before upgrading. is that a major turn-off for you or is it something that you don't mind?

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Major turn-off.  Personally, I find it doesn't really increase the difficulty but it does make the fight feel a lot more grindy.

[ReX]

I recently tested one of @Retro Dino's maps where the player has to shoot a shotgunner to pick up a shotgun, thereby waking up the enemies in the room. The room is a large, open one with little cover and with strategic alcoves containing enemies. The enemies range from the pistol-wielding zombies through imps and demons to hell-knights and mancubi (no chaingunners). It was quite fun to run around like a headless chicken, encouraging monster infighting, while trying to avoid enemy projectiles. The hitscan enemies were a nuisance, but were readily dispatched. The whole encounter was the definition of chaotic, but I found it to be an excellent example of going up against mid-tier enemies with just a shotgun.

 

EDIT: By "little cover" I meant "no pillars". There are plenty of sector-based obstacles that occasionally block enemy fire.

Edited February 17, 2021 by ReX
Added information

[LudicrousFPS]

I don't like it at all, but I have just accepted it as a truth when you pistol start maps. 

[94's the best style]

People always over rely on SSG. Which is why I like Ultimate Doom and pwads for it, gives time for chaingun, rockets and plasma to shine.

[TheGreenZap]

I agree with some here, I actually use it on purpose if there are 2 or 3 Barons of Hell, but more than that it can take too long and not be efficient enough.