What monsters are best used for open areas?

[Frankiemanz227]

Struggling to get a good feeling for monster placement/usage in more open areas. 

What monsters are best used, assuming the player has at least a shotgun and a pistol? 

 

Thanks! 

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by Frankiemanz227
Wording error.

[D4NUK1]

Imps and Rifleman comes to mind.

[ViolentBeetle]

If shotgun is the peak of what you got, probably imps. Revenants and cacodemons can serve as bosses.

Zombies are dangerous at a distance, especially if all you got is a shotgun.

 

Overall, fighting in open areas with only a shotgun is not very fun. If area is sufficiently open, consider at least giving away a chaingun. Or a rocket launcher.

[Frankiemanz227]

23 minutes ago, ViolentBeetle said:

If shotgun is the peak of what you got, probably imps. Revenants and cacodemons can serve as bosses.

Zombies are dangerous at a distance, especially if all you got is a shotgun.

 

Overall, fighting in open areas with only a shotgun is not very fun. If area is sufficiently open, consider at least giving away a chaingun. Or a rocket launcher.

Ok, thanks! 

If that's the case what would be suitable for the use of a chaingun? 

I'll also make sure to implement one!

 

(side note: I attempted to use Revenants but if they ever use a tracking fireball there is no good way to dodge it.) 

Edited February 22, 2021 by Frankiemanz227

[Simomarchi]

A chaingun is really useful when you need to hit some distant enemies, since the first two shots of every volley of projectiles are always perfectly aimed to the enemy at the center of the screen, so if you tap the fire button you will always hit a distant target.

This is best used if the monster you are trying to hit has a low health pool, like a revenant or everything that has less hit points (mainly human monsters, lost souls and imps)

 

Of course you need to put those monster in a place that is not easily reachable by another weapon (a revenant that is on ground level can easily be killed by 2 super shotgun blast) so be sure to place your enemies in turrets or high ground.

 

Other than that if you want to create an open area be sure to avoid enemies that can easily trigger infighting. It is not fun at all to fight a bunch of demons that desperately try to bite a mancubus on a turrent only because a random projectile from the letter hit the demons. You can avoid this problem either by placing the same enemy both on high ground and on the player level or by pressuring the player with some other serious threats, like a bunch of pain elementals or an archvile that starts to ressurect every other dead enemy. The key, when making large open areas fights, is to keep the tension on the player (of course if he manages to eliminate your threats then he deserves his victory).

[Doomkid]

In large/open areas, I'd advice against using too many hitscanning enemies. Since they usually have pinpoint perfect accuracy, it can be very unfair for a player who has little in the way of objects/walls to cover behind. Conversely, stuff like imps and hell knights shoot fireballs which can be easily spotted and dodged, making for a more fair experience. Just my 2c!

Edited February 23, 2021 by Doomkid

[Nine Inch Heels]

In all due honesty, if you only give out a shotgun and a pistol, you might as well keep outdoor sections short, because there's not a lot of value in the roster of doom2 that feels good to play against with so little in the way of firepower...

 

If you throw in a SSG, maybe even a few rockets, you can afford to place monsters like revenants, mancubi, arch viles, or arachnotrons a bit more liberally - all of them do well in open areas, because they either have homing attacks, fire more than one projectile, or they fire a lot faster, which demands a bit more attention...

 

If you plop down a vile, then you should probably also place a few opportunities for players to break the line of sight, in which case I'd recommend not being too generous with the cover you provide while also adding monsters that make taking cover for too long a bit more challenging...

[Arbys550]

A fun thing I like to do sometimes in a large section is place a bunch of pillars or otherwise blocking walls around a turret of archviles, entice the player with a powerup, reveal the archviles, and they can't escape cause they'll get blasted. The player will want to stay and take care of the archviles. Adding a bunch of barons can make it a lot of fun, where you want to kill the archviles, but the barons are pushing you around the pillars.

 

You say "at least" a shotgun, which I take to mean shotgun and more powerful weapons, but maybe you meant to say "no more than" a shotgun, as in the shotgun is the most powerful weapon the player has. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Stupid Bunny]

Mancubi, arachnotrons and revenants are my favorite larger enemies for open spaces.  They're not as unfair as archies and hitscanners in such a situation, but also not as redundant as barons, knights, imps, even cybies which are easy enough to circlestrafe to death even in large numbers.  All this said, open areas are usually more interesting in an environment where you can't just circlestrafe ad nauseam, where the space is broken up by pits or pillars or ledges or something that requires a bit of strategic movement.  Also the enemies I named can also be circlestrafed away, although you will often find a comical ball of 10,000 revvie missiles have clustered together and formed an instant death ball by the time all the boners are dead.

[Kappes Buur]

5 hours ago, Frankiemanz227 said:

Struggling to get a good feeling for monster placement/usage in more open areas. 

What monsters are best used, assuming the player has at least a shotgun and a pistol? 

 

Thanks! 

 

In open areas any of the flying monsters. They are a tricky bunch when they follow you into buildings, caves, etc.

 

For land based monsters I would use any hitscan monsters extremely sparingly as they are very annoying when they kill the player without being visible at a distance. If there is a lot of cover though, then use them at your hearts content.

[DooM Bear]

Provided you only have the pistol and a shotgun then Imps, zombies and shotgunners.

 

Zombies and shotgunners to allow the player to restock on ammo and imps cos they are just so satisfying to slaughter:-D

 

Maybe a couple of mid tier demons too but not so many that the whole time is spent pistoling them all to death.

Edited February 23, 2021 by DooM Bear

[riderr3]

Arachnotrons plasma balls can drive the player like a rat well without the ability to run backwards.

 

If pain elemental sees you at very great distances, this creates a rather dangerous situation where the location can be filled with lost souls and block the path.

 

Perhaps mastermind will not let you stick out, but it is better if she has assistants located above or below so as not to be exposed to friendly fire. You can reduce the risk of these bullets by putting the invisibility sphere nearby.

 

Due to the fact that in Doom 2 the size of locations has increased, the added enemy types just fit well, unlike Doom 1, where we have to wander through narrow, poorly lit corridors where former humans, imps and demons feel best.

Edited February 23, 2021 by riderr3

[SilverMiner]

Don't use hitscanners in large open areas, it's not fair

[ax34]

Imps, mancubi, sheeps (barons and hellknights), pigs, tomatoes, Cyberdemon, maybe arachnotrons.

Edited February 23, 2021 by ax34

[baja blast rd.]

All of 'em? 

 

So, first off, any monster can be placed if it is fun to fight. This is relevant in spaces that, for one reason or another, don't allow you to create danger effectively. Nothing wrong with giving the player something to battle in an easy, enjoyable way that doesn't take too long.

 

Second, if you are finding that all your open areas fit that above description of not permitting you to create danger effectively, think about mixing up how you design them. A huge circular open field and a mid-sized crescent-shaped valley are both "open areas," but they are going to play a lot differently. If you are looking to make your spaces play well, understanding how to design areas in terms of space and terrain is just as important as monster use. 

 

Finally, in terms of placement, be aware of the option to use turrets and cliffs and ledges and windows and cages and so on, which can allow some monsters to maintain their positions and stay out of each other's lines of fire, avoiding situations where everything in an area bunches up and eventually infights. Like the point about space and terrain, this is a "general concept" that is as important as any specific monster know-how. 

 

With that in mind, there are some useful roles to be aware of. I will assume for now you are not designing slaughterish maps. 

 

- Former human troopers are effective hitscanners for larger spaces. Their chip damage forces you to take them seriously, especially groups of them, but they aren't overbearing and annoying, and even high numbers of them go down fast. 

 

- In larger spaces, mancubi and arachnotrons are great sources of efficient pressure, with a high threat-to-HP ratio, because of the number of projectiles they shoot, and the arachnotron's sustained fire. Their attacks look visually imposing, which can create the impression of danger and threat even in huge spaces where the actual pressure level is necessarily low. 

 

- Imps are easy to kill, and can put out a lot of projectiles relative to their HP. It is hard to truly overuse imps as long as the player has the means to kill them. A wall of imp projectiles can be really cool and fun.

 

- A low number of revenants can add a lot of pressure thanks to homing missiles. 

 

- Flying monsters have the advantage of mobility, which can make them especially useful in spaces that aren't freely traversable by the player or other monsters. Even if they aren't all that dangerous, a handful of cacodemons moving from one area to another to engage the player can be cool. 

 

- The rest of the big threats: if you are using pain elementals, viles, and bosses, you should know specifically what you intend for them, and have a situation in mind. The key general point about PEs and viles is that they often temporarily tether the player to specific spots in an open environment, the PE by encouraging the player to kill it, the vile with its requirement for cover.

 

- Commander keen

 

- Pinkies, HKs, barons (gasp): not always the most obvious monsters to use meaningfully outside of horde possibilities when the player can move very freely, but you shouldn't shy away from using them. They can be good complementary monsters, and emergent behavior always has value: a few pinkies in a big space might not have an obvious purpose, but they could end up being a temporary source of dynamic cover against something else, for example. It's always useful to think in synergistic terms too: pinkies might be a slight meatshield for a vile, for example. Or with more specific roles: some HKs might be low-priority monsters that guard a cache of supplies in a bigger fight, for example. Those three points apply to the rest of the monsters.

 

- Sergeants and chaingunners: with no cover these can be annoying. If they are hard to spot and cover long distances beyond your targeting range, they can be annoying. But in moderation, and with cover, or with deliberate nerfing tactics (e.g. some chaingunners are given line of sight over a small part of the terrain instead of all of it) they can be fun, so there is no need to avoid them entirely. 

 

Anyway, play good maps that have open spaces and study what they are doing too. Some things can't be put into words. Hope this helps!
 

Edited February 23, 2021 by rd.

[Stabbey]

Yeah, what rd said. Just saying "open area" is too general. You need to think of what purpose you want the encounter to serve. A big open area with a bunch of monsters in it doesn't sound very interesting. It could be interesting, but the description isn't painting a picture in my head about it.

 

This article should be a help:

 

 

You're talking about an encounter, and there are four main types of encounters:

 

Waste - a fight intended to drain resources, such as health and ammo, without endangering the player.

Challenge - putting the player into an interesting situation which damages them, but may not necessarily kill them, such as ambushes which include a way out.

Punish - draining the player's mental resources - making them nervous or jumpy, or surprising them with the unexpected

Kill - difficult encounters intended to be a lethal threat to the player.

 

The way it's described doesn't sound like either punish or challenge. It also doesn't sound like it's meant to kill, otherwise you could put in a couple Arch-Viles, or a bunch of hit-scanners. That leaves only waste. If you want the player to spend a bunch of resources there, it probably means that the player needs to spend a bit of time in the area and may have a difficult time getting out. Perhaps they're there for a key which is at the far end. Perhaps they're passing through but they need to hit a few switches to raise stairs/platforms to get out. Something like that.

 

Think of the purpose the encounter will serve and that will guide you towards how to design it.

[Hitboi]

Cyberdemons and Spider masterminds, they're very dangerous but open areas make them a little easier, I don't recommend using them in claustrophobic rooms, it's obviously not a good idea.

[purist]

I wouldn't rule out zombies in an open area. Yes, you may not be able to dodge their attacks but instead the challenge is to kill them before they take too much of your health. It can still be fair and fun if the resource balance is right. Certainly more fun than trivial battles with slow firing projectile enemies like imps and barons with too much room to dodge.

[Frankiemanz227]

Thanks for all the feedback! I settled on using pillars, with a few Former Humans and a Pain elemental.