Conspiracy Theorists Make My Brain Hurt

[Captain Keen]

30 minutes ago, Murdoch said:

100%. Conspiracies do happen.

 

Yep, MKUltra and the Tuskegee Syphilis Study are two great examples. As is Watergate, as you mention, or Nixon trying to scuttle peace talks in 1968 so he could win an election. Then in 1973 we negotiate an end to the war pretty much on the same terms that were being discussed in 68. Nixon's worst crimes relate to Vietnam. Watergate was bad, but not as bad.

 

30 minutes ago, Murdoch said:

Most of the supposedly odd things about JFK's assassination people think they know are really misinformation. 

 

Yeah, I don't want to go too far down the JFK rabbit hole, because it's quite a rabbit hole. For me the stuff that really sticks out is Jack Ruby's reasoning for shooting Oswald (and his own background), along with Oswald's attempted defection to Russia and then his return. The Warren Commission really didn't do its job, either, and their conclusions have some pretty big holes in them. The whole thing about the second shooter and all of that is a lot less compelling to me, and veers too much into conjecture. I also have no doubt that Oswald was involved, the question is ultimately: did he act alone?

 

The most damning evidence is more related to motive, in my opinion. The military–industrial complex wanted war. Eisenhower warned about it in 1961. We know for a fact that many powerful people around JFK wanted war with Cuba, and had planned false flag attacks, which got Lyman Lemnitzer fired. They also pushed him to strike first during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Then, in 1963, JFK is assassinated, and less than a year later Gulf of Tonkin happens and Vietnam escalates. If it wasn't an inside job, it certainly worked out well for the war industry. They got exactly what they wanted. The motive is there. I believe they had the means. However, the only evidence is circumstantial, so we will probably never know for sure. But it's not some crazy farfeteched thing, and history is filled with similar events in other nations that we know happened for a fact.

 

The JFK conspiracy is really the only major conspiracy without a definitive answer that I feel has teeth to it. Almost everything else is BS. Moon landing faked? BS. Big foot? BS. Anything Q related? BS.

 

(If we faked the moon landing, does that mean we also faked the Apollo 13 failures, or the subsequent moon landings? Was Kubrick available for those too??)

 

30 minutes ago, Murdoch said:

I think a lot of the JFK conspiracies are born from the desire for people to believe it takes more than a loan nutter with a gun to irrevocably change history. But that simply is not true. They can, and have. 

 

I don't disagree with you there, and I think it's absolutely possible that Oswald did it all on his own, and the military-industrial complex just took advantage of the situation and now had LBJ as POTUS (who was more sympathetic to their foreign policy goals). All the stuff about the gun and the shot really isn't compelling to me, and doesn't prove a damn thing. I won't argue that, and those conspiracy theories start to veer into nuttiness.

 

30 minutes ago, Murdoch said:

One of the big lies conspiracy nuts peddles is "jet fuel can't melt steel beams". And yet not one official source ever said they did. Jet fuel DOES, however, burn hot enough to severely compromise their strength. And when you have a bunch of steel beams supporting a crapton of weight that lose a great deal of their strength, well, you don't need to be a physics major to figure out the rest.

 

It's like the snow stuff that started this thread. Not based in actual science at all. No real evidence. Just a bunch of BS.

Edited February 24, 2021 by Captain Keen
fixed a typo!

[Maes]

TBQH I never understood the logic behind the  -alleged- "industry conspiracy" to "kill the electric car" or at least keeping it back: I always thought that the laws of physics/electrochemistry/electrical engineering as well as plain old economics did a pretty good job themselves.

 

You just couldn't have EVs with nearly the level of modern practicality using 50s or 60s or even 70s/80s technology. No rechargeable Lithium chemistries, no compact power electronics for powering vehicle-mountable induction/AC motors, no fast charging capabilities, no computerized battery monitoring, no neodymium magnets for strong and compact motors etc.

Edited February 24, 2021 by Maes

[NoXion]

You don't need to melt metal in order to get it weak enough to give way under pressure. Forget science, this is something that blacksmiths have known for thousands of years.

So the solution is obvious. Teach kids blacksmithing at school. Unlike critical thinking classes, it's less likely to be blocked by the rich and powerful folks who have an interest in misleading the average person.

Less facetiously, I also suspect the recent lockdowns may have exposed a bunch more people to this kind of crap.

I'm also legitimately having trouble with the idea that many tons of fake snow could be dumped across multiple states, without it becoming front-page news. The alleged perpetrators would have effectively dumped the evidence of their deeds all over. Like, literally anyone could pick this stuff up and analyse it. The areas affected are not lacking people with training in chemistry, meteorology, and so on. This would include people not affiliated with any government or corporation. People have been melting this stuff and drinking it. If it's not water, then what the fuck is it supposed to be? Do these idiots think that water doesn't have a gaseous phase?

I just can't...

[Murdoch]

8 minutes ago, NoXion said:

Teach kids blacksmithing at school.

 

I endorse this idea. Shall we make an online petition? Those always work, right?

 

As a vaguely humorous aside, I run a tech business - computer repair, phone repair, etc etc. So I get spam offering me phone screens etc. Every now and then I get bored and will send them stupid responses. Once I told them we got out of tech business and were now New Zealand's foremost seller of new and used sex toys. No response to that one. And another I said were now blacksmiths so unless they had good prices on quality anvils, they were of no use to me. Her response was something to the effect of "Blacksmiths? They are also very useful :) Have a good day!"

 

To this day I wonder - did she get the joke and was playing along? Or was she actually dumb enough to believe we had become blacksmiths? It is a question that will haunt me forever.

[DSC]

6 hours ago, Mr. Freeze said:

 

That's what I thought too, until I realized the people talking about fake Moon landings and Ancient Aliens became Qanon cultists and aspiring mass shooters. 

 

America has a tolerance problem in that we tolerate too much dumb shit from others. The proper response to someone claiming the Moon landing is fake is not "Well gee shucks, I disagree but that's your opinion" it's "Well that's fucking stupid, why the hell would you think that?"

What I'm about to say will probably shock alot of the american doomers here, but here it goes: freedom is extremely overrated. America is only hurting himself with its incredibly hyper-egotistic "all the freedom in the world for me" crap. Just look at those anti-maskers with their "right not to be told what to wear" that is causing alot of innocent deaths already. Too much freedom is killing them. Karl Popper said it best, too much tolerance equals no tolerance.

[Doomkid]

9 hours ago, Gokuma said:

I think it's hilarious to see Flat-Earthers offended by Hollow Earth Theory, but then get totally schooled by Hollow Earth Theorists.

 

I don't believe in Hollow Earth but it's at least interesting.   I wouldn't deny there's more subterranean architecture and/or more to Antarctica than we know of.   I'm not saying there actually is though.

 

The original Journey to the Center of the Earth is a freaking great classic movie.   The new one's a bit entertaining but too much kiddified and CGI BS.   Haven't read Jules Vern's book yet.

My adblocker blocked this post on my PC and I’m only just now seeing it since I’m on my phone.... another conspiracy?.....

[Doomkid]

10 minutes ago, DSC said:

What I'm about to say will probably shock alot of the american doomers here, but here it goes: freedom is extremely overrated. America is only hurting himself with its incredibly hyper-egotistic "all the freedom in the world for me" crap. Just look at those anti-maskers with their "right not to be told what to wear" that is causing alot of innocent deaths already. Too much freedom is killing them. Karl Popper said it best, too much tolerance equals no tolerance.

The whole thing about “freedom” is just propaganda that’s gotten out of control anyway. People have this arbitrary standard that the laws as they are right now (or more often, when they were born) are perfect somehow. All the stuff that was already illegal, all the “freedoms” they already didn’t have were no problem, but introducing just one more standard - in this case, not allowing people to willingly infect others with viruses by not wearing masks in public areas - is suddenly the straw that breaks the camel’s back. There’s no logic to it, it’s just automated defense of the status quo.

 

My conspiracy theory is that it’s programmed into people by certain media outlets. They put this idea in people’s minds that regulation is always a bad thing, so that when regulations are considered for corporations, there will be droves of people willing to shout “regulation bad! Unlimited freedom good!” and unknowingly defend the bottom line of the ultra wealthy while throwing the masses under the bus. Nevermind the fact that the “big bad regulation” would be, for example, making it illegal to dump toxic sludge in rivers. That’s the cheapest method of disposal, so the companies pay pundits to convince people that regulation is universally bad so that they can have the freedom to dump all the sludge they want, wherever they want. If you point out that it’s killing the planet all in the name of “freedom”, you’re just a dirty no-good hippie, another thing they’ve also been convinced to believe.

 

When you’re given pre-packaged TV-dinner-like opinions, you don’t have to put any effort into critical thinking and drawing your own conclusions. You can just outsource your opinions to others. It’s more convenient, and one thing I learned growing up in America is that convenience at the expense of everything else is the name of the game. It ain’t good.

[NoXion]

6 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

My adblocker blocked this post on my PC and I’m only just now seeing it since I’m on my phone.... another conspiracy?.....

I didn't know adblockers could target specific forum posts.

[Doomkid]

I’ve had it happen numerous times by now, so I’m not actually surprised at all. I think it was just a coincidence, but hey, it’s more fun to play the conspiracy angle!

[NuMetalManiak]

If you send some of these people into space and have them in the space station orbiting the earth, would they STILL believe it's flat?

Also brb gonna infiltrate qanon to see what dumb shit they're talking about now.

[NoXion]

Seems like it could generate more than a few false positives. Like how could it tell between someone sincerely discussing a product, versus someone nakedly shilling it? Algorithms are notoriously bad at reading context, just look at Facebook and YouTube.

[DSC]

1 minute ago, NuMetalManiak said:

If you send some of these people into space and have them in the space station orbiting the earth, would they STILL believe it's flat?

They would say something about "fish-eye lens".

[SOSU]

Georg Rockall-Schmidt did vids on the crazy fellas:

And a Podcast Episode:

 

Conspiracy Theorists are such an interesting topic i could write a book about it xD

[magicsofa]

My girlfriend encounters lots of conspiracy theorists in the spirituality/health sector. She works at a health food store and is studying shamanism. Which, sounds pretty mystical and fake to many people, but it's essentially a series of meditation practices that deal with mental health. Regardless of whether you believe in that specific part of it, she encounters people all the time who blather on about messages from space beings and lightworkers and so on. They use all the buzzwords but have no substance. It's pretty scary because even some of the people she's been studying alongside have adopted these attitudes. She has a friend who claims that Donald Trump sends her visions. Anyway, she researched Qanon somewhat and found that a big tactic they use is, of course, to prey on people who are vulnerable and who are interested in spiritual practices. I feel that conspiracy theories in general can quickly turn into a pseudo-religion for people. It's a giant ego booster that makes you feel like you have the secrets and allows you to dismiss anyone who disagrees with you.

Unfortunately, as much as I love technology and the internet, online echo chambers are super effective at keeping these things going. It's so easy for people to get sucked down a rabbit hole, and glom up with others who just keep reinforcing these whacky but satisfying beliefs to each other.

[Doom_Dude]

1 hour ago, NoXion said:

I didn't know adblockers could target specific forum posts.

 

His adblocker has become sentient and is trying to block what Doomkid reads. ;)

[seed]

1 hour ago, Doomkid said:

The whole thing about “freedom” is just propaganda that’s gotten out of control anyway. People have this arbitrary standard that the laws as they are right now (or more often, when they were born) are perfect somehow. All the stuff that was already illegal, all the “freedoms” they already didn’t have were no problem, but introducing just one more standard - in this case, not allowing people to willingly infect others with viruses by not wearing masks in public areas - is suddenly the straw that breaks the camel’s back. There’s no logic to it, it’s just automated defense of the status quo.

 

Yeah, pretty much.

 

The problem is that "freedom" is a concept that has been perverted and abused to hell and back, so now it's used as an excuse for all shitty things, to avoid blame and any shred of responsibility. Freedom doesn't automatically also equate with free from consequences and the right to do horrible crap because "it's your damn right to do it". It's lack of any sort of judgement...

[markanini]

I don't know what's worse. People dismissing evidence in plain, just because their news network of choice claims its wrong. Or screwballs that give actual whistleblowers a bad rap. Let's not forget that Edward Snowden was thrown under the bus by government and media for revealing crimes by the US military.

[DooM Bear]

6 hours ago, Captain Keen said:

Oh, one last thing: the 9/11 conspiracies make no sense. If W was behind them, why not blame Saddam? Why stage fake attacks, blame them on bin Laden, and then a year later try to change the narrative from Afghanistan is the threat to Iraq is the threat?

 

I remember reading something / seeing a “doco” that tried to explain this.

 

Pretty much, the US figured it was a good strategic position that no one really cared about too much that they could launch their attacks on Iraq from. Pretty much, they needed a base in the Middle East they could quickly and easily take control of (obviously if that was the plan, it really didn’t work out for them :-P) and a reason to have their fleet already in the seas when they decided to switch targets to Iraq.

 

Another reason for Afghanistan is they didn’t want to pick on someone with strong allies like Russia, India or China who could come in to back up the country they were trying to invade possibly kicking off WW3.

 

Forgive me if some of the details are off as am going off 15-20 year memories but guess it doesn’t matter anyways as the conspiracy theory isn’t true anyways :-P

[ETTiNGRiNDER]

13 hours ago, Grazza said:

Yes. We live in a post-truth era, and it will lead to the end of civilization.

Do we really, though?  "Post-truth era" implies the existence of a former "truth era" and I'm not convinced that was ever the case.  Dig into records of any time period and you can find ample examples of superstition, sensationalism, pseudoscience and tall tales, and the proportion of people that believed them was probably no lower than today.

[NoXion]

3 minutes ago, ETTiNGRiNDER said:

Do we really, though?  "Post-truth era" implies the existence of a former "truth era" and I'm not convinced that was ever the case.  Dig into records of any time period and you can find ample examples of superstition, sensationalism, pseudoscience and tall tales, and the proportion of people that believed them was probably no lower than today.

You're right in that sense, but I don't think that it used to be so easy for paranoiacs to broadcast their guff. It's also easier these days for grifters to find marks who aren't creative enough to produce their own conspiracies, in order to line their own pockets.

Edited February 24, 2021 by NoXion

[holaareola]

1 hour ago, magicsofa said:

My girlfriend encounters lots of conspiracy theorists in the spirituality/health sector. She works at a health food store and is studying shamanism. Which, sounds pretty mystical and fake to many people, but it's essentially a series of meditation practices that deal with mental health. Regardless of whether you believe in that specific part of it, she encounters people all the time who blather on about messages from space beings and lightworkers and so on. They use all the buzzwords but have no substance. It's pretty scary because even some of the people she's been studying alongside have adopted these attitudes. She has a friend who claims that Donald Trump sends her visions. Anyway, she researched Qanon somewhat and found that a big tactic they use is, of course, to prey on people who are vulnerable and who are interested in spiritual practices. I feel that conspiracy theories in general can quickly turn into a pseudo-religion for people. It's a giant ego booster that makes you feel like you have the secrets and allows you to dismiss anyone who disagrees with you.

Unfortunately, as much as I love technology and the internet, online echo chambers are super effective at keeping these things going. It's so easy for people to get sucked down a rabbit hole, and glom up with others who just keep reinforcing these whacky but satisfying beliefs to each other.

I've heard this from a friend of mine who's really into yoga/wellness/spirituality as well as lots of (IMO) woo-adjacent stuff. She's in particular seen a surge of COVID scepticism amongst instructors/yoga groups/book groups and what the algos are giving her on social.

 

For me, it reaffirms my suspicion that part of the root appeal of conspiracies is that we've lost the big stories and the meaning and purpose that came with them. A lot of her milieu are Western, educated people living objectively comfortable lives yet still feeling somehow empty or dissatisfied at best or suffering a lot at worst and seeking some help from sources that seem located at the opposite of the culture that they're in. It doesn't surprise me that this would be a group particularly susceptible.

 

A lot of the richest countries have disdained or abandoned a lot of the traditional glues such as religion, nationalism and a strong local culture without really having anything to replace them. Even the family, another enormous source of meaning and connection is being held to the sceptical fire a bit, partly due to the extreme individualism and tear down ALL the norms! mood amongst the non-financial elite, partly due to it simply being so hard to think of having kids in economies where wages have essentially stagnated for about 50 years now whilst living costs and especially housing have ramped on unchecked. 

 

Then there's the human aversion to chaos and innate preference for simplicity over complexity.

 

Then there's the internet. Before it, if you were the one nutter in the town who thought that the Queen was a reptilian humanoid alien you kind of had to keep it to yourself or at least couldn't go on about it all day with everyone you met without some social cost.

Early internet era: you can, with a bit of effort, connect directly to a whole community of people who agree that Queenie's shed her skin once or twice in her time.

Later internet era: the companies will even help you do it. Without you asking them to.

 

It's a bad stew. I assume you're being hyperbolic @Grazza, but I really feel it's quite scary. Lack of trust in institutions plus alienation plus an algorithmically and culturally mediated overprivileging of emotion, plus everyone getting their own personal world of 'facts', plus societal stagnation. The internet dream of true information winning over bad, creating a global cosmopolitanism, all using this amazing access to knowledge for their own edification, sunlight being the best disinfectant etc, all look like bum notions. How can truth consistently win out? Truth is not designed to be interesting. In an age obsessed with subjectivity and identity and feelings feelings feelings maybe truth isn't even what's preferred, interesting or not. The truth isn't my truth.

 

 

As an aside, I found out the other day from Adam Curtis' excellent new doc that the whole Illuminati conspiracy thing was started by two counterculture figures to show how dumb conspiracy theories are and try to rouse people into questioning what they hear. Nuts, can't believe no-one's ever told me about this.

[NoXion]

41 minutes ago, holaareola said:

As an aside, I found out the other day from Adam Curtis' excellent new doc that the whole Illuminati conspiracy thing was started by two counterculture figures to show how dumb conspiracy theories are and try to rouse people into questioning what they hear. Nuts, can't believe no-one's ever told me about this.

 

I'm also pretty sure that when Flat Earth nonsense first started coming to prominence on Facebook, that it was largely a joke. But then it metamorphosed into the gaggle of scammers and true believers that it is today.

I think that's more than enough data to show that this kind of shit is dangerous, even if it's "only joking bruh"* or done in a foolhardy attempt to raise consciousness.

 

*Not that it was ever funny in the first place, it's laziest fucking kind of satire in the universe and needs to die a miserable and unmourned death.

[seed]

1 hour ago, NoXion said:

You're right in that sense, but I don't think that it used to be so easy for paranoiacs to broadcast their guff. It's also easier these days for grifters to find marks who aren't creative enough to produce their own conspiracies, in order to line their own pockets.

 

Which is the main difference in all this.

 

Nowadays everything is connected and it's much easier for such groups to form and their theories to be heard of read about, in addition to every idiot writing articles and making videos to promote their brain farts.

Edited February 24, 2021 by seed

[Aaron Blain]

4 hours ago, Doomkid said:

When you’re given pre-packaged TV-dinner-like opinions, you don’t have to put any effort into critical thinking and drawing your own conclusions. You can just outsource your opinions to others. It’s more convenient, and one thing I learned growing up in America is that convenience at the expense of everything else is the name of the game. It ain’t good.

Manufacturing Consent -- Noam Chomsky

Remember those nerds on X-Files? They had a spinoff for a minute:

The Lone Gunmen -- Pilot (Synopsis)

Watch it on YouTube

It seemed very cute and fun at the time.

[holaareola]

11 minutes ago, NoXion said:

 

I'm also pretty sure that when Flat Earth nonsense first started coming to prominence on Facebook, that it was largely a joke. But then it metamorphosed into the gaggle of scammers and true believers that it is today.

I think that's more than enough data to show that this kind of shit is dangerous, even if it's "only joking bruh"* or done in a foolhardy attempt to raise consciousness.

 

*Not that it was ever funny in the first place, it's laziest fucking kind of satire in the universe and needs to die a miserable and unmourned death.

Really? I hadn't heard that about the flat earth stuff. It's fascinating how even things deliberately created to be ridiculous can take on such lives of their own. It's like Poe's law incarnate.

 

As an aside, back when professional haircuts weren't a punishable offence there was a hair salon owner round where I work who was a flat-earther. Free haircuts for life to anyone who could prove him otherwise. He seemed earnest but was so hard to tell if he was being genuine or just having a massive laugh with it all and trying to get some notoriety.

[DSC]

4 minutes ago, holaareola said:

He seemed earnest but was so hard to tell if he was being genuine or just having a massive laugh with it all and trying to get some notoriety.

Poe's Law my friend. Poe's Law.

[CorianderCastor]

Once again the community never disappoints.

 

I think the most interesting conspiracies are the one's that have some believability. Like a good story or something.

[Dubbag]

 

[Zulk RS]

14 hours ago, Mr. Freeze said:

 

That's what I thought too, until I realized the people talking about fake Moon landings and Ancient Aliens became Qanon cultists and aspiring mass shooters. 

 

America has a tolerance problem in that we tolerate too much dumb shit from others. The proper response to someone claiming the Moon landing is fake is not "Well gee shucks, I disagree but that's your opinion" it's "Well that's fucking stupid, why the hell would you think that?"

 

Okay like I will admit I did not know that... at all. And yeah in my country too, the response to "Earth is Flat" is also "What no? Are you stupid?"

 

I don't think I'm significantly smarter now than I was years ago. I don't feel any smarter than before (if anything I feel dumber now than I did years ago).  So why does it feel like people are getting stupider and stupider as more time passes?

 

[seed]

26 minutes ago, Zulk RS said:

So why does it feel like people are getting stupider and stupider as more time passes?

 

Well generally speaking, if you don't open any books in many years, read more insightful articles and stuff about various topics, especially more complicated ones, you'll just start forgetting even what you knew at one point, and just involve.

 

Plus, the environment also plays a role. If all you surround and immerse yourself in is BS, you get BS.