What do you want id to do next after Eternal?

[indigotyrian]

I just realized I didn't actually answer the OP's question.

 

I was really not a fan of Eternal's gameplay (it's extremely formulaic and other people have gone into far greater depth on this) or approach to narrative (way too much exposition and curtain-drawing of a character that was designed to be shrouded in mystery), but given that it proved popular with a bunch of people. The DLCs weren't very popular though and as far as I understand it the final boss of those was essentially id doubling down on the Marauder design in the face of people who didn't like the Marauder, so maybe they'd ease up. I'd prefer combat to be more organic and flexible and closer to the Doom 1993 style of things.

 

If we got a new Doom game, I don't know how viable this would be but I'd prefer a return to a more mysterious approach to things. I don't need to know every single detail about the Doom Slayer's past or Samuel Hayden's tragic backstory or how and why argent energy works. Don't get me wrong, I love narrative in games and especially deep lore and details, but I also feel like negative space is just as important. They seemed to get it with 2016 (they cited Frank Frazetta's "Death Dealer" which is essentially Negative Space The Character) so Eternal to me was a big step backwards.

[CFWMagic]

Two things:

- Either demote Hugo Martin so he never touches game direction ever again, or outright fire him.
- Throw "the fun zone" and "force the player to play the game right" concepts in the combustible trash bin and apply judicious amounts of napalm.

---

On a more serious note, I'd rather id work on a new engine rather than a new game next. But I realize that's not going to turn out the way I hope it will, because no Carmack.

Alternatively, work on another Enemy Territory: Quake Wars game. Either post Quake 4 era which will involve Stroggos' last stand, or Quake 1 era which will have an asymmetrical, fantasy vs tech, wide scale multiplayer battlefield.

Edited December 2, 2022 by CFWMagic

[Herr Dethnout]

2 hours ago, CFWMagic said:

On a more serious note, I'd rather id work on a new engine rather than a new game next. But I realize that's not going to turn out the way I hope it will, because no Carmack.

Eternal hate to id for not releasing id Tech 5 as Open Source (the last id Tech engine made by Carmack).

Edited December 2, 2022 by Herr Dethnout

[CFWMagic]

59 minutes ago, Herr Dethnout said:

Eternal hate to id for not releasing id Tech 5 as Open Source (the last id Tech engine made by Carmack).

I really do miss Carmack ... I mean I get that he's really focused on VR and wants to move forward with technology, beyond just engines and id Soft ... But in retrospect, Meta wasn't the best option. I still secretly hope he'll eventually get tired of it and go for his own projects without any meddlers. One can only hope.

But to be honest, it's not just the engine, either. Carmack's efforts to Open Source the engines imo is a relic from the old world. When the word "hacker" meant free spirited programmer. When programmers were nerds passionate not only about their work, but about discovery. The very mindset of sharing programming knowledge with others ...

Of course, to this day, id work is a technological marvel. The unique way textures are packed in Doom 2016 and Eternal, and the resulting stability without loss of quality is stunning. But it was done at the cost of flexibility. The more I talk about it, the more I realize it's rose tinted glassess. But still. It feels like olden times, game development and game modification were tightly knit together.

Nowadays, everything is streamlined ... Bethesda still managed to get away with paid mods to some degree. And hell, corporate entities (looking at you Nintendo and R*!) actually sue mod-devs for doing something unique with games and extending the game's lifetime ... I can't help but feel like ...

Games ... Games have changed.

Edited December 2, 2022 by CFWMagic

[Herr Dethnout]

6 hours ago, CFWMagic said:

I really do miss Carmack ... I mean I get that he's really focused on VR and wants to move forward with technology, beyond just engines and id Soft ... But in retrospect, Meta wasn't the best option. I still secretly hope he'll eventually get tired of it and go for his own projects without any meddlers. One can only hope.

But to be honest, it's not just the engine, either. Carmack's efforts to Open Source the engines imo is a relic from the old world. When the word "hacker" meant free spirited programmer. When programmers were nerds passionate not only about their work, but about discovery. The very mindset of sharing programming knowledge with others ...

The efforts not only from Carmack, but all PC developers into the Open Source was something that helped a lot into the advancements of the industry, knowning how the things works and enhanced it was something that makes the PC Game Development unique. Not to mention how it helps into the preservation, being able to play Doom and other PC games on modern consoles/PC natively is a big reason with this games are not forgotten :P.


 

Spoiler

Also, before exiting id, Carmack said that he will release the id Tech 5 as Open Source, so yeah, the fact that id didn't release a 12 year old engine made from a guy who wanted to make it OSS is a big BS.

 

Edited December 2, 2022 by Herr Dethnout

[Kute]

On 11/22/2022 at 3:41 PM, segfault said:

I just realized I didn't actually answer the OP's question.

 

I was really not a fan of Eternal's gameplay (it's extremely formulaic and other people have gone into far greater depth on this) or approach to narrative (way too much exposition and curtain-drawing of a character that was designed to be shrouded in mystery), but given that it proved popular with a bunch of people. The DLCs weren't very popular though and as far as I understand it the final boss of those was essentially id doubling down on the Marauder design in the face of people who didn't like the Marauder, so maybe they'd ease up. I'd prefer combat to be more organic and flexible and closer to the Doom 1993 style of things.

 

If we got a new Doom game, I don't know how viable this would be but I'd prefer a return to a more mysterious approach to things. I don't need to know every single detail about the Doom Slayer's past or Samuel Hayden's tragic backstory or how and why argent energy works. Don't get me wrong, I love narrative in games and especially deep lore and details, but I also feel like negative space is just as important. They seemed to get it with 2016 (they cited Frank Frazetta's "Death Dealer" which is essentially Negative Space The Character) so Eternal to me was a big step backwards.

 

The combat in doom eternal made the game special. If they revert it to no-skill standard classic shooter design, I'm not going to play. When you get good at DE to the point where you're blitzing ultra nightmare, no other game can emulate that feeling. I feel bad for the people who weren't able to figure it out. It's not that hard

 

The first DLC is highly regarded. The second DLC had a bad boss fight. 

 

 

[Kute]

21 hours ago, CFWMagic said:

Two things:

- Either demote Hugo Martin so he never touches game direction ever again, or outright fire him.
- Throw "the fun zone" and "force the player to play the game right" concepts in the combustible trash bin and apply judicious amounts of napalm.

---

On a more serious note, I'd rather id work on a new engine rather than a new game next. But I realize that's not going to turn out the way I hope it will, because no Carmack.

Alternatively, work on another Enemy Territory: Quake Wars game. Either post Quake 4 era which will involve Stroggos' last stand, or Quake 1 era which will have an asymmetrical, fantasy vs tech, wide scale multiplayer battlefield.

 

I realize a forum devoted to early 90's FPS's isn't the place to look for anything but nostalgia, but this is awe-inspiring. It's like worst take after worst take. It's like how can they go from being one of the most well regarded studios on the planet to irrelevant mediocrity again in 3 easy steps kind of bad takes.

[CFWMagic]

49 minutes ago, Kute said:

 

I realize a forum devoted to early 90's FPS's isn't the place to look for anything but nostalgia, but this is awe-inspiring. It's like worst take after worst take. It's like how can they go from being one of the most well regarded studios on the planet to irrelevant mediocrity again in 3 easy steps kind of bad takes.

I mean, the first part of my post was supposed to be an inside joke, because I complained about Hugo in another thread sometime. If I were to be honest ... Well. I do undestand Hugo's take. And to be honest, I'm the one who bought Doom Eternal. I could've continued to play the myriad of wads this here place releases on a regular basis. But I bought Doom Eternal, despite criticizing modern game developement. It's on me. And yes, it could be argued that I'm getting lonely and I want to be in touch with the modern world so I have something to say when I speak to people who didn't live under a rock like me in the past 10 years ... But ultimately, even if the argument "don't like it - don't play it" is unfair, it still has some merit.

Ultimately, what bothers me most is that no middleground was found. To give you an example, the relatively recent leaks of R*'s GTA 6 were criticized on both sides without a middle ground. One side was trashing R* because "WTF is this? Ha hahaha, you're incompetent!" without realizing that game developement takes ages. On the other side, we have people who are pledging allegiance to R* no matter what. Yes, maybe early developpement comments aren't really truthful when it comes to the big picture, but why get so defensive? Why say "THIS is why no criticism should ever be had!"?

Because there is no middle ground anymore. Because when I say "Hey man, what you're doing right now? It's ugly as fuck. Do better maybe?" instead of being responded with "Yeah I know bro. Look, get off my ass. I'm doing the best I can. If you can do better, do better and I'll implement it", I get comments like "FUCK YOU! HOW DARE YOU CRITICIZE MY UNFINISHED WORK?! IT MAY LOOK UGLY BUT FUCK YOU FOR SAYING SO! HARRUMPH!"

It really feels like there's no middleground anywhere anymore. It really feels like people are forced to take sides. Which, I admit, I'm somewhat guilty of too. But I'm the first person to say hey, I'm going to disagree with you, and I'm occasionally going to riff on you, but I'm also the first person to say hey, my opinion doesn't matter. I don't like what you're doing, but ultimately, you do you man. If I don't like it, I'll say it, but you do you. Like with Hugo Marting, yes, I don't like his vision. But if I don't like it, I'm not going to buy his game. Me speaking about it shouldn't be taken as Hugo being the next re-incarnation of anti-christ.

TL;DR: I miss the time when people could make fun of each other, and criticize each other, be it fairly or not, yet contiune their work and their vision in spite of that, understanding that when someone criticized you, be it fair or not, be it polite or not ... Well. It's not the end of the world. Even if you make a shit game like Daikatana, that game is still useful. Because we can learn from it. We can analyze it's mistakes, and we can make sure we don't make the same mistakes again. And that is only possible BECAUSE the criticism was there in the first place. If you're going to be touchy and sensitive to the point where criticism isn't allowed, how the fuck you're supposed to learn from your mistakes in the first place?

Anyway. Sorry for the rant. I'm a little bit drunk, and that makes me too talkative.

[Metal_Slayer]

3 hours ago, Kute said:

The combat in doom eternal made the game special. If they revert it to no-skill standard classic shooter design, I'm not going to play. When you get good at DE to the point where you're blitzing ultra nightmare, no other game can emulate that feeling. I feel bad for the people who weren't able to figure it out. It's not that hard

If you think classic shooter design is "no-skill" then I think you shouldn't be at this forum. People don't like Eternal's design not because they can't get good, in fact I have finished the game and the DLCs on the hardest difficulty and I couldn't force myself to play the game for a third time or all of those extra modes, playing the game with all of the weapons switching and other techniques doesn't make it more fun or strategical, it's just like solving Rubik's Cube, you just need to follow the steps.

3 hours ago, Kute said:

The first DLC is highly regarded. The second DLC had a bad boss fight. 

The first DLC is mostly better than the base campaign because it's short, has more creative encounters and it has better pacing, but it's not perfect. The second DLC has the same problem of pacing and boring encounters of the base campaign but multiplied by ten, the terrible boss fight is just in case the player is having too much fan.
 

The most fun moments of Doom Eternal are the ones that are closer to classic shooter design, not the opposite.

[nathanB404]

i'd want a new doom game. but quake seems like the best option for id. 

[Ui4]

On 12/3/2022 at 9:23 AM, Metal_Slayer said:

If you think classic shooter design is "no-skill" then I think you shouldn't be at this forum. People don't like Eternal's design not because they can't get good, in fact I have finished the game and the DLCs on the hardest difficulty and I couldn't force myself to play the game for a third time or all of those extra modes, playing the game with all of the weapons switching and other techniques doesn't make it more fun or strategical, it's just like solving Rubik's Cube, you just need to follow the steps.

The first DLC is mostly better than the base campaign because it's short, has more creative encounters and it has better pacing, but it's not perfect. The second DLC has the same problem of pacing and boring encounters of the base campaign but multiplied by ten, the terrible boss fight is just in case the player is having too much fan.
 

The most fun moments of Doom Eternal are the ones that are closer to classic shooter design, not the opposite.

There are such concepts as metagame and emergence. Therefore, this is not a Rubik's Cube experience, because Doom Eternal is a large structure where you can be creative in using the features of the game. The fact that you beat the game on ultra nightmare does not mean anything, because Doom Eternal itself is easy due to many hidden mechanics, but at the same time it is fun as a challenge where you have a lot of tools, but little information.

[Ui4]

In general, if they make a new Doom, then there will obviously be a doomguy backstory, but I would like them to combine the history of events after Doom 64 (the history of the night sentinels) and between Doom 2016 - Eternal. That is, there will be two gameplay concepts: night sentinels and a new interpretation of Doom 2016 gameplay. In addition, the structure of battles will be different due to different worlds and time. The world after the events of Doom 64 will be a semi-open world with a focus on bosses and action scenes, and between the events of Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal there will be an arena shooter with new elements. According to the plot, the main character will influence himself from the past and the future. But it is obvious that id software will not make such a large-scale game because of the very concept and budget.

[whatup876]

Because i always thought that a "devil" in Doom could have been "bigger than the IOS", i always thought Doom deserved its own "Planet sized" beast like a nod to Junji Ito's Remina.

One thing is making the IOS a large city destroying monster like a kaiju and shooting a hole in Mars, but imagine a planet like Jupiter with a large demonic face coming out of it. (kinda like the skybox in TNT Revilution)

It could even be the IOS itself, whether or not you'd also give it a body and make it have a weird anatomy.

 

I also thought Doom could earn its take on an Hexen/Turok/Exhumed/Powerslave/Metroid Prime/etc style of exploration, with levels and HUB's connected in some ways.

[whatup876]

Because i thought about how Quake and Doom overlapped at times, i wonder: What if Quake 5 took Doom elements that didn't return in the new Doom games?

Like health/armor bonuses for example or a light based power up.

[3ryuki.l]

Same games except you are a demon and you go to heaven and kill angels and god

[MemeMind]

DOOM WARS ENEMY TERRITORY

 

 

PLEASE

 

 

ARC VS UAC CULTISTS THINK ABOUT IT

[Metal_Slayer]

2 hours ago, 3ryuki.l said:

Same games except you are a demon and you go to heaven and kill angels and god

If it's the same game why not play the one that already exists?

 

1 hour ago, MemeMind said:

DOOM WARS ENEMY TERRITORY

 

 

PLEASE

 

 

ARC VS UAC CULTISTS THINK ABOUT IT

A Battlefield clone in 2023? Do you think Bethesda wants another multiplayer game that dies in a few months?

 

I think this type of threads where people are just giving ideas is way too much about what they would want to see rather than what they would want to play, and even when they have a gameplay idea they don't think it would fit in with the rest of the mechanics, well, but it's not as if an Id Software employee would read this anyway.

[whatup876]

At the very least, any MP game can live if it has 1: off-line mode(s) with bots/AI and 2: private/custom servers for players and maybe 3: enough content variety i guess.

Always thought Doom spin-offs could always exist to "give" new stuff to the series that may or may not be used in a mainline game.

Even an MP could could have more than ARC vs UAC cultists like "humanoid demons" if you take the demonic 2016 MP skins into account and even stuff like 2016 MP demon runes of BattleMode demons.

You could also explore not only new demons/guns/items etc but even stuff like mechs and vehicles or giant demons.

And don't forget the Sentinels and maybe Maykrs.

Basically, "exploring" militaries not just with lore or visual exposure (like the battle scene in Immora) but being able to "feel" it and in both sides of the mechanical context.

[Captain Keen]

On 2/27/2023 at 6:03 AM, whatup876 said:

Because i thought about how Quake and Doom overlapped at times, i wonder: What if Quake 5 took Doom elements that didn't return in the new Doom games?

Like health/armor bonuses for example or a light based power up.

That could be cool!

 

The more time passes the more I’d really love to see id return to Quake 1 and give it a fresh paint of coat like Doom 2016, or a new IP that’s a mix of Quake 1 and Heretic/Hexen. In other words dark cosmic fantasy. A Cthulhu mythos epic where your character can wield some dark magic. Anything along those lines.

 

A Quake 1 reboot/revamp/legacy sequel could absolutely get into the cosmic terror Cthulhu vibes even more than the original and could be true epic horror. I’d love to see them move away from the more arcade-y action of Eternal, which I did enjoy, and do something more horror based (but it’d still be a shooter, of course).

[whatup876]

Random idea but the next Praetor suit should have one arm fully covered and the other exposed, as a way to be the middle ground between 2016 and Eternal.

Not even as a joke, make it tie into a lore of Doomguy's left hand being stronger and even add new details to the suit so it can stand out in other ways.

[Cantleylads]

14 hours ago, whatup876 said:

Random idea but the next Praetor suit should have one arm fully covered and the other exposed, as a way to be the middle ground between 2016 and Eternal.

Not even as a joke, make it tie into a lore of Doomguy's left hand being stronger and even add new details to the suit so it can stand out in other ways.

 

Your comments are often unintentionally funny. Also, this might be the shortest one I've seen so far. I love the passion, though.

[DoomSlaer]

Honestly I don't care, I just don't want them to think they should do something like Doom 3 and try to make it mostly horror

[Edward850]

I think they should do something like Ultimate Doom or Doom3 and focus on the atmosphere and labyrinth design.

[hybridial]

I think the most interesting thing to me would be a spiritual successor to Heretic and Hexen. It wouldn't be revisiting those worlds or characters though, it'd be doing a new setting and story, and they could do one with a lot more thought put into it's story. I'd actually be fine if they did something like this to put some real work on the story and give it an epic feeling ala Conan or Berserk. Maybe have one protagonist but you can spec into different classes giving different abilities, weapons etc? I'd definitely like a good dose of heavy melee weaponry but also for it to retain some FPS elements using ranged weapons. 

 

I guess Graven is sort of like this, but a AAA one would be pretty nice and different, and I'd still expect id's take to be faster and more action orientated. 

[openroadracer]

I'm probably going to catch some heat for this one, but I'm going to say it anyway.

 

id Software should approach Games Workshop about developing a Warhammer 40,000 game.

 

No, I'm serious.

Isn't the 2011 Space Marine game pretty much a third-person version of DooM 2016, just five years older? I bet id could pull off a MEAN 40k game if they tried.

[whatup876]

id doing a 40K game reminds me of those stories of how Doom was originally an Aliens game.

Someone will point out how modern Doom already reminds them of Warhammer in some ways.

 

Also, recently learned that Mighty Doom has a "Cyber Caco" and wonder if that could be an idea to be used in a more traditional Doom game.

[Metal_Slayer]

18 minutes ago, whatup876 said:

id doing a 40K game reminds me of those stories of how Doom was originally an Aliens game.

Someone will point out how modern Doom already reminds them of Warhammer in some ways.

It doesn't just remind Warhammer, back in 2019 Hugo Martin started posting stuff about Warhammer, and since he isn't all that creative, he started putting that kind of stuff into the game. Seriously, can't convince me that all of the plot that came out of nowhere from the DLCs isn't just a copy, specially that war between the Dark Lord and the Night Sentinels.

On 4/26/2023 at 7:44 AM, openroadracer said:

I'm probably going to catch some heat for this one, but I'm going to say it anyway.

 

id Software should approach Games Workshop about developing a Warhammer 40,000 game.

 

No, I'm serious.

Isn't the 2011 Space Marine game pretty much a third-person version of DooM 2016, just five years older? I bet id could pull off a MEAN 40k game if they tried.

Why don't you tell? Haven't you played the game? It's a Hack N' Slash game, it has guns, but it's not a shooter, and Warhammer has a totally different theme from the Doom series, they aren't compatible.

 

31 minutes ago, whatup876 said:

Also, recently learned that Mighty Doom has a "Cyber Caco" and wonder if that could be an idea to be used in a more traditional Doom game.

I don't want to assume anything, but maybe that is an idea stolen from a fan concept, there's already a functioning Cyber Cacodemon in some DE maps and in SnapHak.

[Egyptian Guardian]

A remake of the original quake with Lovecraftian and Occult themes, just like how they gave Doom the Bethesda treatment, followed with several DLCs. Rinse and repeat with Hexen and Heretic. 

 

Also, one marketing strategy that I just realized could revive a gaming community is bringing back a Dev Team to release several mods and DLC's for the original Quake to be played on that KEX engine, or be compatible with source ports like Quakespasm and Darkplaces. This could encourage other indie devs and modders to release high quality content to be played with it like what happened with Arcane Dimensions. 

[DNSKILL5]

I want Id to return to The Catacomb series and bring it new life. Catacomb 4, Id... CATACOMB 4! Please, please.. don't just call it "Catacomb"..

Edited April 30, 2023 by CAM-7EA

[TheSlipgateStudios]

My vote goes to a new Quake game. Sure, we had fun with Doom for now, but let's give Quake another shot!