Mid-level saves: Yay or nay?

[Dwimepon]

I'm just curious as to what the general consensus is.

I first played all of Doom 1 without saving during levels and it offered a tense, sometimes even scary experience where every shot, medikit and armor point counted. It was frustrating at times, sure, but finishing a level felt rewarding like nothing else.

 

Nowadays though, I almost always quicksave because it's so much more convenient, especially when playing super-hard maps or slaughtermaps where you can go from 200% to 0% in a heartbeat.

What do you think? 

[Deadwing]

Mid-levels? Definitely.

Mid-battle? no.

[omx32x]

yay

also why is so many treads about stuff like that popping up recentely? play whatever you want dude

[94's the best style]

Depends on map length really. Wouldn't always want to save, but loading is much better than having to go through the entire slog of a map all over again in many cases.

[Juza]

For me it depends on how much I'm enjoying the map, my current patience level and whether I have time to waste or not.

 

5 minutes ago, Dwimepon said:

it offered a tense, sometimes even scary experience where every shot, medikit and armor point counted. It was frustrating at times, sure, but finishing a level felt rewarding like nothing else.

This is definitely true, however for the case of long, highly challenging levels, I've no reason to put time and effort into beating them saveless. The stress I might be put throughout it may not be worth the realistically insignificant satisfaction of completing a video-game through any "special" means... Won't pay your bills or give you any awards, just bragging rights.

[dei_eldren]

It's not Manic Miner... so yes.  i play for fun, and MM-style gameplay isn't fun, i'd rather do something else if i had time for that.  i admire Doom Gods who do that on YT, decino's perseverance and striving for excellence is great to watch, but i doubt even he's enjoying playing through a level for hours on end to get the perfect take...at that level, it does become work.  Even YT Doomers, who are much more experienced and talented than i, playing levels blind, use saves.

 

All that said, i do strive to improve and get through levels without deaths, but at this point, having also recently upped the difficulty of the maps i play, it's not happening too often, yet.

 

Midfight i only save in desperation, if something's way over my skills.

Edited March 9, 2021 by dei_eldren

[BoxY]

I only play a map without saves if I already know the map well or love it so much that I think it's actually worth the effort to master, otherwise I would only beat 5 wads per year and it would be boring as hell.

Edited March 9, 2021 by BoxY

[Mr. Freeze]

Save scumming is for scum!

 

If I ever make a PC gaming it'll have mid-level saves and loading disabled. 

[Gez]

Save whenever you want; who cares, it's single-player.

 

Saving in the middle of a battle is not necessarily a good idea, though. You may not notice that you saved just one half-second away from getting splattered by a cyberdemon rocket so now your save slot is bust.

[LouigiVerona]

I somehow got into a habit, inadvertently, of not saving mid level. I would say that it depends on the mood and how much I'm enjoying the level. Although, I have to say, that truly enjoying a level and then being killed midway, especially if it was clearly an accident, like being stuck somewhere and being gunned down by chaingunners in like 2 seconds, that can kill the atmosphere really quickly.

 

In the perfect world I would love for there to be a magic save that can just revert the situation back like 20-30 seconds in the case of an emergency.

Having said that, in larger levels where I'm cognizant of my progress or level difficulty, I would typically save before entering a large room or something like that.

[1Destro3456]

Yay

[P41R47]

i always played with saves at the start of the map. Not much problem if i die, i just ragequit, calm myself a little reading something on doomworld, and try again later.

 

By experience i can tell why i died, by a human processing error or by a difficult encounter that i didn't measure properly.

If i died by my own error, i don't save before reaching the place i died.

If i died because i didn't properly measure the difficulty of the encounter, then i save a a few rooms before the place where i died.

 

On my actuall skill progress its usually the first, a human error, so i just restart after a while and try again.

Normally thats how i play completing mapsets on just a few runs.

 

I found after long that if a mapset made me play the first two maps in a row, i will probably play it completely.

 

Thats how i usually lost time, starting mapsets, finding them undatisfactory, and then moving into another, rince and repeat until one makes me play more than one map in a row.

[chexwarrior]

When I first started playing Doom I went through this phase of only playing on UV, no saves and always pistol start.  It forced me to get better, however it also caused me to quit a ton of megawads before completing them because I couldn't take playing one hard map over and over again.  I finally mellowed out and now I play on HMP, pistol start (I don't know I just prefer this way of play) and I usually only save each time I get a key, but on harder maps I'll also save before a huge battle.

[MFG38]

The Doom 3 manual taught me the importance of saving regularly in my early teen years. It's a habit that stuck.

 

While we're on the topic of saving, hot take time: not enough (G)ZDoom maps implement autosaves at key progression points. The Autosave() ACS function is really handy and it saddens me to see how rarely it's actually used. In a big and girthy map especially, it's nice when the game saves itself for you when you haven't remembered to save in 15 minutes. Losing that much progress in case of death and dismemberment just isn't fun and can totally kill my mood. Which is why I'd love to see the practice take off more.

[Pompeji]

If you're making a map, my philosophy is: You have to be able to beat your own maps, on at least UV, without the assistance of ANY saves.

 

If you're playing a map? Do whatever you want, just don't complain if you do something the map author advised against then it breaks the map.

[HQDefault]

I will admit that I can be a bit of a save-scummer. I typically try to avoid saving mid-fight but I've gotten in the habit of just saving anytime I can remember.

I've come to have a bit of appreciation for games that tie your saves to an item. It's a nice compromise where you can quicksave where and if you want, but you can't just spam saves to brute force your way through a level.

But really I don't care if you save-scum through anything if that's how you enjoy playing the game.

 

Unless you're Vinesauce Joel and you quicksave mid-fight with 5 hp and wind up locked in a death loop for thirty minutes. Don't be like Joel.

(I do like his streams but holy shit that pisses me off)

Edited March 9, 2021 by HQDefault

[RonnieJamesDiner]

Yep, I definitely save mid-map, several times depending on the length of it. No way in hell I'm trying to UV max something like Bastion or Ar Luminae without a save, haha. 

[leodoom85]

Seriously. When and where to save, it's completely up to you.

[Endless]

Early saves, early mid saves, mid saves, early late mid saves, middle late saves, late saves, slightly more lately saves and just-in-case saves.

[LUISDooM]

Absolute 'yay'. I use saves... ALWAYS, no matter if the map is small or huge, pre or mid fight, in front of the exit... Saves are part of my enjoyment playing DooM.

Also, just the thought dying and having to restart a map is not fun at all for me. Fun fact is that I  gone through PSX DooM/Final DooM with pistol starts several times years ago... I guess I don't have the same patience I had as a Kid lol

[DMPhobos]

Do i like beating a map without saves?
If it's good and it's on my skill level yeah

Do i enjoy dying over and over again and trying the same map from the start?
Nah fuck that

I mean even the manual tells you to save often, so just have fun and don't gatekeep other people because they save

[Bauul]

Yes, of course. Often and regularly. I have precious little time to actually sit down and play Doom maps these days, so when I do I sure as hell don't want to miss out on experiencing all the work the author has put in because I force myself to redo large parts of a level and run out of time to actually finish the map.

 

I try not to save mid-battle, because as Gez says it's easy to save in a disadvantaged situation and actually make life harder for yourself. But if there's a natural break, sure, why not.

 

Honestly, play how you like. Whatever makes it most fun for you. 

[m8f]

Well, Autoautosave mod shows 1k downloads on GitHub, and it had about another 1k before I moved it from file hosting. So, I believe at least some people think that mid-level saves are okay.

And it's not the only mod that automates saves.

[BladeWolf]

If I have all 7 weapons, health and armor above 100? Absolutely. Mid-level saves have got me through tough gunfights on UV.

[seed]

Saving all day, everyday baby!

[continuum.mid]

I think I will echo the same stance as a lot of other people here: Doom is a game, you should play it however you enjoy playing it. If you don't find it fun to restart a level over and over again because you died at the end, play with saves. If you prefer the high stakes of playing saveless, play saveless.

 

Also, I can't imagine playing 1+ hour endurance levels (e.g. Eviternity Map19 and Map32) saveless, at least from my skill level.

Edited March 9, 2021 by northivanastan

[DRM-MAN]

You can, but not during a battle, do it before you open the door to fight all those pesky demons. Also the original manual tells you to, the misconception that saving or horizontal mouse look is cheating shouldn't be listened to anymore.

[Pompeji]

9 minutes ago, DRMman said:

You can, but not during a battle, do it before you open the door to fight all those pesky demons. Also the original manual tells you to, the misconception that saving or horizontal mouse look is cheating shouldn't be listened to anymore.

 

But how do we feel about mapmakers using saves? I think it's unfair to make a map you can't beat and release it. Iunno, I used to play tons of Super Mario Maker when I was a kid and I'd make really hard levels but the game forced you to beat the level before you publish it, so I got that in my system. I always do saveless playthroughs of my level, with and without secrets in order to test the balance of everything. I think it provides me an advantage that I know the map like the back of my hand, so "Ambushes" aren't as hard or punishing to me, but at the same time, I have the disadvantage of not being able to save, which I think the people who play my maps should do(I encourage saving). I also like to play on UV to make sure my map is a challenge, but not unfair. Despite the fact I often find myself lowering the difficulty on other people's maps.

[Horus]

3 minutes ago, Pompeji said:

But how do we feel about mapmakers using saves? I think it's unfair to make a map you can't beat and release it.

 

Using the term 'can't beat' is misleading in this context, because regardless of whether you finish a map with or without saves, you are still beating it.

I absolutely think it's fine for mapmakers to use saves, especially on lengthy maps. Like I highly doubt Bastion of Chaos and Ar Luminae were beat without saves before release (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong :P)

[Pompeji]

1 minute ago, Horus said:

 

Using the term 'can't beat' is misleading in this context, because regardless of whether you finish a map with or without saves, you are still beating it.

I absolutely think it's fine for mapmakers to use saves, especially on lengthy maps. Like I highly doubt Bastion of Chaos and Ar Luminae were beat without saves before release (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong :P)

 

I don't know, I guess I meant as in if you can't beat your level without saving then it is either an extremely challenging endurance level or just bad design. I think there's a difference. I like to make my levels feel fair, as in "Oh I fell on a hurt floor, look a teleporter so I can GTFO." instead of "Oh, I fell on a hurt floor, forgot to save before this not obvious trap, gotta restart the level and remember to save because if I'm slightly off in this section I'm 100% dead." I'm not gonna tell other mapmakers what they can and can't do, but it's just my philosophy and it's what works for me.