Do you get stuck in NON-IWAD maps?

[Blackroat]

I have to watch Youtube videos myself.

 

Currently I got stuck in Map 11 of Alien Vandetta. I got so bored of getting stuck that I will go on later.

 

Don't you think NON-Iwad maps are designed so hard to finish? 

Edited March 12, 2021 by Blackroat

[continuum.mid]

Community maps are usually (though not always) meant to be harder than the commercial IWAD maps. That's because the mappers themselves, and much of their playerbase, have already beaten Ultimate Doom and/or Doom II, maybe even Final Doom and some other community maps, and they will want to play and make maps that challenge them in novel ways.

[seed]

Sometimes, but mainly in puzzle maps and overly non-linear levels, those are always my nemesis since my sense of direction is so bad, and I'm not very observant either so I tend to miss the obvious sometimes too.

[Blackroat]

5 minutes ago, northivanastan said:

Community maps are usually (though not always) meant to be harder than the commercial IWAD maps. That's because the mappers themselves, and much of their playerbase, have already beaten Ultimate Doom and/or Doom II, maybe even Final Doom and some other community maps, and they will want to play and make maps that challenge them in novel ways.

 

I think you misunderstand me.

 

I am talking about map designs, not enemies.

[Blackroat]

Even in a slaughter megawad, I got stuck after killing the enemies around. Not knowing where to go.

 

Challange based on enemies can be good but not figuring out where to go is not.

[P41R47]

Automap is your best friend ;)

 

BUT IDDT NOT!

 

Best automap friend is computer area map.

 

IDBEHOLDA BEST FRIEND!

 

IDDT NOT GOOD FRIEND!

[Alper002]

Figuring out where to go (and navigation in general) is something I normally can enjoy. I rarely find myself stuck, and when I do, it usually doesn't take too long.

Of course, if I can't find progression for a long enough time I will still resort to using a guide or peeking in the editor, but it doesn't usually frustrate me when that happens, especially if I'm enjoying the map for other reasons!

[94's the best style]

Usually if I get stuck for too long, I will just quit and play some other map. It's remarkably easy to make a cryptic map without thinking, lack of playtesting often causes this. as the mapper of course knows exactly what to do, without realizing that the map itself does not tell what to do.

[roadworx]

3 hours ago, Blackroat said:

Currently I got stuck in Map 11 of Alien Vandetta. I got so bored of getting stuck that I will go on later.

oof, that's unfortunate )): i love that map

 

but yeah, i get stuck a lot. it's oftentimes my own fault (though not always) cuz my sense of direction is god-awful

[P41R47]

i play doom since i have 3 years old, and one thing i learn while playing is that TAB key displays the automap.

The automap is really useful, it not only shows cardinal directions and to where are you looking, it also shows where you didn't explore yet.

 

I notice that a lot of people don't use the automap.

Maybe because they fear one monster attacks them while looking at it, or maybe because its difficult for them to understand the automap, i don't know.

 

So its hard to relate to getting lost for me, not only on a map, but also on the streets out there.

From my experience, Doom teached me a lot of things, one of thats is the sense of direction, learning to save visual cues as reference points and discriminate between them from memory.

 

I want to distinguish something different, that is not knowing what to do next for advance on the map.

Thats has nothing to do with getting lost.

But its not getting stuck, either.

Sometimes the switches are badly placed, or not even lit at all.

For secret switch is understandable as they need no be a little hidden and only found them after a keen eye is use.

But for the map progression switchs and doors, those should be properly indicated.

 

Non-iwad maps are made with the idiosincratic mind of the mapper, and some may feel interesting that a hidden switch lets you progress.

Thats what is called mandatory secrets, and thats considered as bad design by most people.

I don't care much them if they are kinda obvious, but if the switch to progress is behind 13 other secret switches and really hard to figure out, thats not a proper map, its a puzzle map, and thus has to be measured in that regards.

 

So no, even while playing Eternal Doom, one of the mapsets with the most obscure progression and switch hunt, i didn't get lost or stuck.

Exploring is fun, and some maps of Eternal Doom take me around two hours to tackle, and i really enjoyed them.

 

There is no way of getting stuck unless the maps is bad designed, and thats totally on the mapper, like a narrow space between sectors that is easy to fall into, inescapable pits, softlocked or hard locked into an area, forgetting to properly made a lift or linedefs/scripts that change something.

 

Most maps are designed, by rule, to be completable.

If they are hard to be completable, thats not bad; if they are switch hunting, thats not bad; if they had obscure progression, thats not bad.

Its simply that it deviate from IWAD maps.

And thats the most marvelous thing out there.

That there are 28 years of mapping and there is no end in sight.

 

Diversity is good.

Just playing IWAD maps because you know them like the palm of your hand is easy.

Getting stuck in a map you don't know because you never played it before, its something normal, like going to a house you never been before.

Just like that.

 

You can play on nightmare now!
At least, the IWADS maps.

Its time to move on from only playing the iwads.

Edited March 12, 2021 by P41R47

[Phobus]

Not to put too fine of a point on it, but if you’re getting stuck on average maps that aren’t early 90s dungeon crawling mazes or some sort of deliberately obtuse puzzle map, it’s because you suck.

 

 Possibly in general, but definitely at navigation, observation and taking cues from level design. Now, this isn’t entirely your fault. You may be inexperienced, or simply unfamiliar with the textures that denote interactivity in a map set you’ve not played before. You can help yourself by not running around like a headless chicken, as so many terrible players do, and take a bit of time to explore and examine the level. Given most Doom maps are 5-20 minute affairs, if you’ve got time to play it, you’ve got time to slow down a little. Blindly rushing about expecting it all to be in front of you is just you neglecting a whole skillset. There’s more to playing games than killing stuff and not dying.

Edited March 12, 2021 by Phobus

[dei_eldren]

Yeah, sometimes, when the mapper has made the progression intentionally obscure.  Large non-linear maps can be really hard to navigate.  But like has been said, use automap!  i've figured quite tricky situations with it.  The 'worst' map took me over half an hour to figure out where to go, i missed really narrow slope with steps that was near invisible (but it was in an area i thought it really should be!) - the map had a really large outside area and several indoors areas and i was near tears lost, while in another (same WAD) i missed a doorway in the middle of an elevator ride, the devil mapper!  Both were resolved by careful study of automap.  i get a lot of satisfaction from figuring those out, as well as puzzles, and none has defeated me yet!  What i lack in intellect, i make up in stubborness.

Edited March 12, 2021 by dei_eldren

[Bibilsmi]

All the time. I genuinely enjoy getting lost and exploring maps most of the time, usually helps with finding cool secrets too! So I'll routinely give it a fair shake before I decide to check a video or a walkthrough. Usually, when I do, it's because I checked everywhere I could and still wasn't able to progress. Then, while watching the video I realize I missed something so obvious or a mechanic that I'm not familiar with. Here's a recent example.

I was playing Memento Mori 2 (An amazing classic wad, by the way, I'm loving my playthrough.) for the first time. Once I got to map 2, which is a remarkably simple map that starts with basically a forking path to two rooms. I couldn't go further than that because I didn't realize I had to walk on a specific spot in the westernmost room to naturally open up the door to the easternmost room. I still explored the small area several times over before I checked online and instantly realized my mistake. These kinds of things don't often tend to happen in more modern wads, I rarely, get lost in anything post-2010.

[AmnesiaSilence]

sometimes, i usually just go and play something else or just keep looking

[Optimus]

Oh I was playing that map yesterday. It's a map that is not very much liked because of it's cramped designed especially in the caves, and at that point it also becomes too switch hunting. That's the curse of maps that try to be epic which I normally like but they go too far and hard to finish (the infamous map20 egyptian them of AV has almost the same problem at some point, but it's better done and it's loved. I love both 11 and 20 personally). I'd watch a youtuber if I get stuck, especially if I want to find the secrets I missed.