Did the Slayer become Doomguy again? [Spoilers]

[whatup876]

It can depend whether they could still use the Slayer or how they would handle a non-Slayer Doomguy.

I feel like they could sort of do both, depending on whether or not it affects canonicity or gameplay. (non canon spin-offs are a thing)

Like i said sometimes, Doom can have some experimential potential if you think less of canon and more of the setting being full of concepts and elements you just do something with.

[RaikohZX]

I mean, he's still a guy that killed armies of demons for unknown amounts of time before becoming the Slayer, and if we take Episode 1 from the original game as him dying at the end, even death won't keep him down properly. Plus Slayer is mostly a title for his Sentinel work, the title wouldn't just disappear because of the Dark Lord. If he lost the powers then he can't absorb Argent from his slain foes anymore, but that doesn't magically render his interactions and history moot.

[Robot_Joe]

an unstoppable gary stu no more

[NoXion]

I get the feeling that those Seraphim dudes are keeping the Slayer entombed as a backup plan, much like how Hayden spirited away the Slayer's previous sarcophagus.

[AtimZarr1]

1 hour ago, NoXion said:

I get the feeling that those Seraphim dudes are keeping the Slayer entombed as a backup plan, much like how Hayden spirited away the Slayer's previous sarcophagus.

 

Interestingly, the Seraphs are referred to as "Ancient Gods" in the subtitles when they chant right before Davoth's fight. They are also seen observing the crystal inside the World Spear, are seen observing the battle between the Slayer and the Dark Lord, and are the ones to seal the Slayer back into the sarcophagus - featuring some more of them standing by and observing the sarcophagus at Ingmore's Sanctum. Their presence in multiple key locations seems to suggest a high level of importance or power to the Seraphs themselves. In TAG1, they are also the only ones capable of operating the machines of resurrection in the Luminarium. It could be that the Seraphs / Ancient Gods are greater beings that observe and influence various happenings in the Doom universe. They may have a connection to the Elemental Wraiths as they were found inside the World Spear, which itself was a spaceship filled with pods of Wraiths inside. They are also likely the ones to conjure the bridge over the Nether Lake at the end of World Spear - the ones that The Father gives permission for the Slayer to gain passage.

 

As Hayden was also a Seraph, that might imply he was an Ancient God as well. It would go along with the idea that he was similarly manipulating events around the Slayer, such as recovering him from the sarcophagus in Kadingir Sanctum. He, the Seraphim, is also seen observing the Slayer in the Book of Daeva art - which also aligns with how the other Seraphs / Ancient Gods are seen observing the events of TAG2. As the Seraphim apparently suffered the same Transfiguration as the Maykrs did, that would imply a link between the Seraphs / Ancient Gods and the Maykrs - and therefore a connection to Davoth since he created the Maykrs. But the Seraphs / Ancient Gods don't seem to come to Davoth's aid, implying a degree of separation between the two. In any case, it seems they're trying to set up the Seraphs / Ancient Gods, as well as the Elemental Wraiths from World Spear, as a possible future storyline since the mystery regarding them remains unresolved.

 

---

 

On topic, I think the Slayer did return to Doomguy after killing Davoth. They had already established that Davoth's power was given through the Divinity Machine. As all demons outside of Hell were destroyed and they were created by Davoth as well - it seems likely that the Slayer's powers were similarly "destroyed", effectively being removed from Doomguy. This would explain why Doomguy is overwhelmed by fatigue and also why only Doomguy seemed to have been affected by Davoth's defeat (besides being shown that the demons outside of Hell were also affected).

[Martin-CAI]

Aren't Seraphs just high ranked Maykrs? How can they possibly be beyond everything and have more power than Davoth, creator of Maykrs? And if they are the "Ancient Gods", what's Davoth? The "Ancient-Ancient God"?

 

The story could've been way more coherent if they would've stayed with "The Father, creator of everything".

[Duke of Pathoris]

1 hour ago, Martin-CAI said:

Aren't Seraphs just high ranked Maykrs? How can they possibly be beyond everything and have more power than Davoth, creator of Maykrs? And if they are the "Ancient Gods", what's Davoth? The "Ancient-Ancient God"?

 

The story could've been way more coherent if they would've stayed with "The Father, creator of everything".

The story is still being told. Be patient, it will make sense. 

[NoXion]

Honestly I think unless they get lucky and for the next game manage to hire writers and editors who are both extremely talented and willing to work for a reasonable price, I think the lore of NuDoom will always be a glorious mess, meant to provide spectacle and an excuse plot for the hero of the day to work against. Personally I'm cool with that, since Doom has never been about honing a finely-crafted narrative. But I can see some people being put off by the spaghetti-like plotting already, and I think it would be a good thing for Id to throw some kind of bone for those folks in the next game.

[igg]

28 minutes ago, Duke of Pathoris said:

The story is still being told. Be patient, it will make sense. 

Still being told? By what? 

[Duke of Pathoris]

2 hours ago, igg said:

Still being told? By what? 

They said it's not the end of Doom. There will be more.

[Quasar]

Hugo is already throwing massive curve balls that do a triple retcon on some of the stuff in TAG2. According to what I heard earlier today, Davoth is just a pawn of yet higher powers. And this, supposedly, is why they changed the "NOOO!" voice in Urdak back to "mysterious", instead of "Dark Lord".

[omx32x]

10 hours ago, Quasar said:

Hugo is already throwing massive curve balls that do a triple retcon on some of the stuff in TAG2. According to what I heard earlier today, Davoth is just a pawn of yet higher powers. And this, supposedly, is why they changed the "NOOO!" voice in Urdak back to "mysterious", instead of "Dark Lord".

honestely i dont really care about the retcons at this point because even doom 2 retconned the end of doom 1 because the manual says he goes back to earth in a ship being considered a hero when in ultimate doom he goes back by a teleporter and its already hell on earth when he goes back

while i would like a consistent story at this point i just dont really care anymore

i remenber hearing hugo saying on a stream that he is not a writter and that the doom story was made to fit the game and well it does fit well with it

Edited March 27, 2021 by omalefico32x

[igg]

4 hours ago, Quasar said:

According to what I heard earlier today, Davoth is just a pawn of yet higher powers. And this, supposedly, is why they changed the "NOOO!" voice in Urdak back to "mysterious", instead of "Dark Lord".

Where did you hear that? 

[jazzmaster9]

I always considered Doom Eternal's story as a Power Metal album in game form, its not suppose to make sense or taken too seriously. it's just suppose to be cool to frame the Gameplay.

 

While I love deep lore like Dark Souls, Doom Eternals nerd lore is also just as entertaining and cool to me with just how insane it is.

[NoXion]

8 hours ago, Quasar said:

Hugo is already throwing massive curve balls that do a triple retcon on some of the stuff in TAG2. According to what I heard earlier today, Davoth is just a pawn of yet higher powers. And this, supposedly, is why they changed the "NOOO!" voice in Urdak back to "mysterious", instead of "Dark Lord".

Apparently the voice subtitle thing was entirely a mistake? At least that's the impression I got when Hugo talked about it on the stream.
 

 

3 hours ago, igg said:

Where did you hear that? 

Hugo has been streaming and playing through the base campaign on the Youtube and Twitch. You can find them recorded on the Bethesda Softworks channel.

[Cacodemon345]

I doubt Doom Slayer has been returned to being Doomguy otherwise the ending where he was entombed inside a sarcophagus wouldn't make sense at all. I would like to entertain the idea of Doom Slayer being put to sleep by The Father since his sole purpose of eradicating demons outside Hell was fulfilled.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Cacodemon345

[Yurax]

Or everything since Samurs transfiguration started and since when he was saved from final Slayer's blow by Father, i.e. from end of AG1 combat part, is just dream, hallucination of Slayer already in sacrophagus. Put there by Father just before he attempts to revive Dark lord from sphere.

[Duke of Pathoris]

3 hours ago, Yurax said:

Or everything since Samurs transfiguration started and since when he was saved from final Slayer's blow by Father, i.e. from end of AG1 combat part, is just dream, hallucination of Slayer already in sacrophagus. Put there by Father just before he attempts to revive Dark lord from sphere.

No. The "just a dream" thing is stupid, quite frankly.

[omx32x]

1 minute ago, Duke of Pathoris said:

No. The "just a dream" thing is stupid, quite frankly.

i hate when things end with "its all just a dream"

at least say that there is a dream world and your actions can affect the real world in some way or another but "its all just a dream" and "the character was crazy all along" is the worst possible way to end a piece of media

[Duke of Pathoris]

3 minutes ago, omalefico32x said:

i hate when things end with "its all just a dream"

at least say that there is a dream world and your actions can affect the real world in some way or another but "its all just a dream" and "the character was crazy all along" is the worst possible way to end a piece of media

Man, I hate the new canon. Better declare it all a dream. That'll solve it!

[omx32x]

Just now, Duke of Pathoris said:

Man, I hate the new canon. Better declare it all a dream. That'll solve it!

i love the new canon

[Duke of Pathoris]

1 minute ago, omalefico32x said:

i love the new canon

I quite like it. There are twists and turns which can be frustrating if you can't see where it's leading. I don't know where it's leading but I know the journey is not over yet.

[omx32x]

Just now, Duke of Pathoris said:

I quite like it. There are twists and turns which can be frustrating if you can't see where it's leading. I don't know where it's leading but I know the journey is not over yet.

only thing i didnt like was making vega the father and hayden the seraphim

the father being transformed into an ai without free will is very dumb and i liked when hayden was just a human solving and energy crisis

but i really like everything else surronding the game and the lore is so deep too

[Duke of Pathoris]

Just now, omalefico32x said:

only thing i didnt like was making vega the father and hayden the seraphim

the father being transformed into an ai without free will is very dumb and i liked when hayden was just a human solving and energy crisis

but i really like everything else surronding the game and the lore is so deep too

I don't want to be that kind of fan but I don't consider 2016 fully canon. What I mean by that is the events happen as they are portrayed but there is a lot of deception on the part of Hayden withholding the truth. Any conflict between its lore and the Eternal lore can be summed up with "Hayden lied".

[omx32x]

Just now, Duke of Pathoris said:

I don't want to be that kind of fan but I don't consider 2016 fully canon. What I mean by that is the events happen as they are portrayed but there is a lot of deception on the part of Hayden withholding the truth. Any conflict between its lore and the Eternal lore can be summed up with "Hayden lied".

yea i know but i still dont like it and i though hayden was way cooler before

i still like his character though and i hope he returns as a companion for the next doom games

[whatup876]

Considering the supposed comic book inspirations, i don't think it would hurt Doom if a spin-off dared to have its own lore, art direction and gameplay, as long as it was still fitting to the series, innovative or fresh, still fun and the Slayer games or even some other variation of Doom still existed.

With comics, there is a problem with people wondering "where to start" but Doom is either a smaller/simpler series in comparison or you could at least realize gameplay comes first before the story.

[thewormofautumn]

12 hours ago, NoXion said:

Hugo has been streaming and playing through the base campaign on the Youtube and Twitch. You can find them recorded on the Bethesda Softworks channel.

 

Man those streams are long. Can you link to where he said it?

[NoXion]

6 hours ago, thewormofautumn said:

 

Man those streams are long. Can you link to where he said it?

Yeah, it's the kind of thing I usually have playing on my second monitor while I work.

I was able to find this, Hugo mentions the subtitle thing being an accident earlier in the video, but it's really difficult to search for specific things being mentioned in hours-long videos.

EDIT: I found out you can Ctrl+F and search within the auto-generated captions, and think the specific part I was talking about can be found here.

Edited March 28, 2021 by NoXion

[rustygizzard]

On 3/26/2021 at 11:02 PM, Quasar said:

And this, supposedly, is why they changed the "NOOO!" voice in Urdak back to "mysterious", instead of "Dark Lord".

 

the original change was apparently a bug due to the ancient gods 1's launch

Edited March 28, 2021 by rustygizzard

[Quasar]

I don't believe that it was an "accident". The wave file has always been in a folder named "dark_lord" in the game's assets. What a load of crock.